Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition

[winforlose]

Maxey is cheaper, younger, and expands the window. Add Harris as a redirect you can stack the team with talent. The question is who would trade something of value for 39 million of expiring cap space? Also who would want Harris’s bird rights and want to sign him long term?

I’m not concerned with expanding the window right now. We’re 22-6, I’m concerned with winning the championship this year. If Maxey does that, then great.

Eggzactly. Our window runs for 6 years minimum. Trying to make our window even longer is just too uncertain. It's not broke and we shouldn't be going out of our way to try to fix it.

I think the terminology is getting in the way. We have two windows. The KAT/Rudy window, and the Ant window. The theory is once Rudy expires we need to cut costs, so we likely send KAT out and let Rudy expire and the core becomes Ant, Jaden, Naz and what you get for KAT. Instead, you turn the KAT/Rudy window into one long window. I was fiddling with the trade machine, and I came up with a hypothetical that makes this work better for us.

Wolves out: KAT, Kyle, and Moore
Wolves in: Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk

Suns out: KD, Nurkic
Suns in: KAT, Kyle, Moore, Talen Horton Tucker

76ers out: Maxey, Harris
76ers in: KD

Jazz out: Olynyk, Collins, THT,
Jazz in: Nurkic, Harris


Add whatever picks you need to finish this.


Jazz can resign Harris at a discount and now they have a super big lineup with Harris, Markkanen, and Nurkic ready to support whatever guards they develop or acquire. They can also move Nurk if/when Walker develops.

Phoenix doesn’t need Nurk with KAT on the team and Kyle starting at the 4 for defense. Beal, Allen, Booker, Anderson, KAT is competitive. Moore is a developmental project and THT is probably a good fit.

Philly gets KD to pair with Embiid (though I doubt they trade Maxey for anything.)

Wolves have Collins for size Olynyk for big depth beside Naz, and Maxey who is turning into a scoring machine.

[Neeva]

Do you really like Maxey? I knew he would be good but I am not sure he’s the right backcourt partner for Ant. I think the Wolves are okay relying on vet point guards for now like Conley until someone really good becomes available(or the PG they draft in the upcoming draft develops?) I think it’s only a matter of time before Haliburton and Lamelo ask out IMO and I think the wolves should pounce then.

[winforlose]

Do you really like Maxey? I knew he would be good but I am not sure he’s the right backcourt partner for Ant. I think the Wolves are okay relying on vet point guards for now like Conley until someone really good becomes available(or the PG they draft in the upcoming draft develops?) I think it’s only a matter of time before Haliburton and Lamelo ask out IMO and I think the wolves should pounce then.

If you are the Hornets or the Pacers would you trade Hali or Lamelo for KAT? Wouldn’t you rather trade for Maxey? Maxey is younger, cheaper, still not in his prime. Karl has a mixed reputation in the league and his defense needs to be consistently solid for more than this year for people to buy in. If you could get Maxey and Collins for KAT could you honestly turn it down?

[Domejandro]

Rumor is that Durant is getting frustrated in PHX.

Would you trade Booker’s buddy Towns for a 35 year old KD?

Giving this an honest look, the most comparable trade would be the 1989 Detroit Pistons trading their leading scorer (Adrian Dantley) and their 1991 First Round Draft Pick for Mark Aguirre.

Similarities:
1. Both Detroit and Minnesota were top two seeds in their conference.
2. Kevin Durant and Mark Aguirre were both unhappy with their teams in the midst of a bad stretch (Dallas was 4-11 in the January prior to the trade).
3. (Speculation) This trade would probably also improve Minnesota's title odds.

Differences:
1. Adrian Dantley was causing issues in the locker room, while Karl-Anthony Towns is a model teammate.
2. This trade makes Minnesota older, while the Pistons trade made them younger (Kevin Durant is seven years older than Karl-Anthony Towns, while Mark Aguirre was four years younger than Adrian Dantley).
3. Mark Aguirre was a massive problem behind-the-scenes, yelling at coaches and teammates (despite beign moody, Kevin Durant is way more chill and focused on basketball).

Differences 1 and 2 make this trade incredibly hard to make. I think Minnesota would be making a mistake by not doing this trade, but man... if you do it and don't win a Championship, that would be a painful pill to swallow, especially given how loyal Karl-Anthony Towns is to the franchise. I don't think I could do it if I was in charge, even if it is probably the right call, on the court.

[TimberKat]

Rumor is that Durant is getting frustrated in PHX.

Would you trade Booker’s buddy Towns for a 35 year old KD?

Giving this an honest look, the most comparable trade would be the 1989 Detroit Pistons trading their leading scorer (Adrian Dantley) and their 1991 First Round Draft Pick for Mark Aguirre.

Similarities:
1. Both Detroit and Minnesota were top two seeds in their conference.
2. Kevin Durant and Mark Aguirre were both unhappy with their teams in the midst of a bad stretch (Dallas was 4-11 in the January prior to the trade).
3. (Speculation) This trade would probably also improve Minnesota's title odds.

Differences:
1. Adrian Dantley was causing issues in the locker room, while Karl-Anthony Towns is a model teammate.
2. This trade makes Minnesota older, while the Pistons trade made them younger (Kevin Durant is seven years older than Karl-Anthony Towns, while Mark Aguirre was four years younger than Adrian Dantley).
3. Mark Aguirre was a massive problem behind-the-scenes, yelling at coaches and teammates (despite beign moody, Kevin Durant is way more chill and focused on basketball).

Differences 1 and 2 make this trade incredibly hard to make. I think Minnesota would be making a mistake by not doing this trade, but man... if you do it and don't win a Championship, that would be a painful pill to swallow, especially given how loyal Karl-Anthony Towns is to the franchise. I don't think I could do it if I was in charge, even if it is probably the right call, on the court.

Last year's Towns, yes. This year feels like break even. Is KD going to stick around for two years? He hasn't been happy anywhere and seems to hold too much seniority over the current group.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

I won't do it. I'm totally convinced in KAT this year. He is really part of our best defense. And he like Minny and not act like a diva. And KD getting the ball too much will slow down ANT and Jaden improvment.

[Domejandro]

Rumor is that Durant is getting frustrated in PHX.

Would you trade Booker’s buddy Towns for a 35 year old KD?

Giving this an honest look, the most comparable trade would be the 1989 Detroit Pistons trading their leading scorer (Adrian Dantley) and their 1991 First Round Draft Pick for Mark Aguirre.

Similarities:
1. Both Detroit and Minnesota were top two seeds in their conference.
2. Kevin Durant and Mark Aguirre were both unhappy with their teams in the midst of a bad stretch (Dallas was 4-11 in the January prior to the trade).
3. (Speculation) This trade would probably also improve Minnesota's title odds.

Differences:
1. Adrian Dantley was causing issues in the locker room, while Karl-Anthony Towns is a model teammate.
2. This trade makes Minnesota older, while the Pistons trade made them younger (Kevin Durant is seven years older than Karl-Anthony Towns, while Mark Aguirre was four years younger than Adrian Dantley).
3. Mark Aguirre was a massive problem behind-the-scenes, yelling at coaches and teammates (despite beign moody, Kevin Durant is way more chill and focused on basketball).

Differences 1 and 2 make this trade incredibly hard to make. I think Minnesota would be making a mistake by not doing this trade, but man... if you do it and don't win a Championship, that would be a painful pill to swallow, especially given how loyal Karl-Anthony Towns is to the franchise. I don't think I could do it if I was in charge, even if it is probably the right call, on the court.

Last year's Towns, yes. This year feels like break even. Is KD going to stick around for two years? He hasn't been happy anywhere and seems to hold too much seniority over the current group.

Kevin Durant is still a substantial amount better than Karl-Anthony Towns, and I am pretty comfortable that he would stay in Minnesota for the remainder of his contract, if he signed off on it at the time of the trade. Minnesota pretty comfortably gives him the best opportunity to win.

We are talking about a guy who (as the top shot-taker on his team), is averaging...
30.3 PPG
6.2 RPG
5.5 APG
...on 52/47/88 splits.


The big issue I have is that Minnesota's continuity is killer right now and Towns is exceptionally loyal to the franchise. Even though I am fairly confident that Minnesota would improve with this trade (Kevin Durant can single-handedly win a Playoff series with his play, he is a freak basketball talent), making the move and not winning it all would be pretty devastating. I wouldn't have the courage as the POBO to pull the trigger, given the context.

[shrink]

I’m not really worried about him asking out since he’d have to be willing to accept the trade in the first place and this is a short term move. I am worried about the age and durability. But this move would be going all in this year and next year, so a lot of those other considerations just don’t matter. It’s all about whether you think KAT for Durant makes a significant upgrade to our championship chances and whether it’s worth the risk. I don’t really know the answer to that.

Take a step back from the trade and ask can the Suns FO really move on from Durant for KAT straight up after all they sunk into the trade to get him. It would be like us moving Gobert in failure and getting back much less than we paid. They cannot do it without losing their jobs.

KD has the clout to demand a trade, even though fans around the league will complain, after he joined GSW because of the cap spike. At his core though, he is a player. He asked out of BRK when Kyrie and Harden started going crazy, but he played hard for months until the PHX deal materialized.

I agree with you that management wants to protect management, so if PHX was forced to trade him, which way could they go? They could send Durant back to OKC for a boatload of picks, and that’s a legitimate course, but a boatload of picks might mean that Booker asks out right behind him. With the fans dreaming about championships at the beginning of the season, suddenly losing a ton of games in a rebuild might cost management their jobs too.

The other course is probably Towns, who maintains a championship window and could keep Booker. If the deal was KD and Eric Gordon for KAT, SloMo and Shake, they’d have some pieces to try to do something around their new Big Three.

I’m not advocating this trade. I didn’t rush into Towns trades, even before his elite play this year, and I agree with posters who say Towns’ chemistry and willingness to step back are important qualities for the team. However, Kevin Durant is a Top 5 player in my eyes, and few championships are won without a Top 15 player on a team. I just find it interesting.

[shrink]

Do you really like Maxey? I knew he would be good but I am not sure he’s the right backcourt partner for Ant. I think the Wolves are okay relying on vet point guards for now like Conley until someone really good becomes available(or the PG they draft in the upcoming draft develops?) I think it’s only a matter of time before Haliburton and Lamelo ask out IMO and I think the wolves should pounce then.

If you are the Hornets or the Pacers would you trade Hali or Lamelo for KAT? Wouldn’t you rather trade for Maxey? Maxey is younger, cheaper, still not in his prime. Karl has a mixed reputation in the league and his defense needs to be consistently solid for more than this year for people to buy in. If you could get Maxey and Collins for KAT could you honestly turn it down?

I answered a question in another thread asking which players were on the verge of becoming stars. I wrote that we all view the word stars differently, but the three I thought were on the verge were Ant, Halliburton and Maxey. Many people agreed, and a few didn’t quite put Maxey up at Ant and Halliburton’s level, but I agree with you that Maxey can be great.

So if we want a longer window, young Maxey is a legit play. But I think in the NBA, stuff happens quickly and windows open and close fast. Kevin Durant is a better play for Championship shot this year and probably the next two as well. I am also concerned about Maxey duplicating Ant rather than complimenting him, which lowers his value here. Still, I’d love to have him in a Wolves uniform!

[KGdaBom]

I’m not concerned with expanding the window right now. We’re 22-6, I’m concerned with winning the championship this year. If Maxey does that, then great.

Eggzactly. Our window runs for 6 years minimum. Trying to make our window even longer is just too uncertain. It's not broke and we shouldn't be going out of our way to try to fix it.

I think the terminology is getting in the way. We have two windows. The KAT/Rudy window, and the Ant window. The theory is once Rudy expires we need to cut costs, so we likely send KAT out and let Rudy expire and the core becomes Ant, Jaden, Naz and what you get for KAT. Instead, you turn the KAT/Rudy window into one long window. I was fiddling with the trade machine, and I came up with a hypothetical that makes this work better for us.

Wolves out: KAT, Kyle, and Moore
Wolves in: Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk

Suns out: KD, Nurkic
Suns in: KAT, Kyle, Moore, Talen Horton Tucker

76ers out: Maxey, Harris
76ers in: KD

Jazz out: Olynyk, Collins, THT,
Jazz in: Nurkic, Harris


Add whatever picks you need to finish this.


Jazz can resign Harris at a discount and now they have a super big lineup with Harris, Markkanen, and Nurkic ready to support whatever guards they develop or acquire. They can also move Nurk if/when Walker develops.

Phoenix doesn’t need Nurk with KAT on the team and Kyle starting at the 4 for defense. Beal, Allen, Booker, Anderson, KAT is competitive. Moore is a developmental project and THT is probably a good fit.

Philly gets KD to pair with Embiid (though I doubt they trade Maxey for anything.)

Wolves have Collins for size Olynyk for big depth beside Naz, and Maxey who is turning into a scoring machine.

Our "window" is the Ant/KAT window. That will be good for the next 6 years. You and many others are way overthinking this. Don't F it up.

[winforlose]

Eggzactly. Our window runs for 6 years minimum. Trying to make our window even longer is just too uncertain. It's not broke and we shouldn't be going out of our way to try to fix it.

I think the terminology is getting in the way. We have two windows. The KAT/Rudy window, and the Ant window. The theory is once Rudy expires we need to cut costs, so we likely send KAT out and let Rudy expire and the core becomes Ant, Jaden, Naz and what you get for KAT. Instead, you turn the KAT/Rudy window into one long window. I was fiddling with the trade machine, and I came up with a hypothetical that makes this work better for us.

Wolves out: KAT, Kyle, and Moore
Wolves in: Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk

Suns out: KD, Nurkic
Suns in: KAT, Kyle, Moore, Talen Horton Tucker

76ers out: Maxey, Harris
76ers in: KD

Jazz out: Olynyk, Collins, THT,
Jazz in: Nurkic, Harris


Add whatever picks you need to finish this.


Jazz can resign Harris at a discount and now they have a super big lineup with Harris, Markkanen, and Nurkic ready to support whatever guards they develop or acquire. They can also move Nurk if/when Walker develops.

Phoenix doesn’t need Nurk with KAT on the team and Kyle starting at the 4 for defense. Beal, Allen, Booker, Anderson, KAT is competitive. Moore is a developmental project and THT is probably a good fit.

Philly gets KD to pair with Embiid (though I doubt they trade Maxey for anything.)

Wolves have Collins for size Olynyk for big depth beside Naz, and Maxey who is turning into a scoring machine.

Our "window" is the Ant/KAT window. That will be good for the next 6 years. You and many others are way overthinking this. Don't F it up.

You never answered my question.


All else being equal, would you trade KAT, Kyle, and Moore, for Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk?

[KGdaBom]

I won't do it. I'm totally convinced in KAT this year. He is really part of our best defense. And he like Minny and not act like a diva. And KD getting the ball too much will slow down ANT and Jaden improvment.

Eggzactly.

[KGdaBom]

I think the terminology is getting in the way. We have two windows. The KAT/Rudy window, and the Ant window. The theory is once Rudy expires we need to cut costs, so we likely send KAT out and let Rudy expire and the core becomes Ant, Jaden, Naz and what you get for KAT. Instead, you turn the KAT/Rudy window into one long window. I was fiddling with the trade machine, and I came up with a hypothetical that makes this work better for us.

Wolves out: KAT, Kyle, and Moore
Wolves in: Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk

Suns out: KD, Nurkic
Suns in: KAT, Kyle, Moore, Talen Horton Tucker

76ers out: Maxey, Harris
76ers in: KD

Jazz out: Olynyk, Collins, THT,
Jazz in: Nurkic, Harris


Add whatever picks you need to finish this.


Jazz can resign Harris at a discount and now they have a super big lineup with Harris, Markkanen, and Nurkic ready to support whatever guards they develop or acquire. They can also move Nurk if/when Walker develops.

Phoenix doesn’t need Nurk with KAT on the team and Kyle starting at the 4 for defense. Beal, Allen, Booker, Anderson, KAT is competitive. Moore is a developmental project and THT is probably a good fit.

Philly gets KD to pair with Embiid (though I doubt they trade Maxey for anything.)

Wolves have Collins for size Olynyk for big depth beside Naz, and Maxey who is turning into a scoring machine.

Our "window" is the Ant/KAT window. That will be good for the next 6 years. You and many others are way overthinking this. Don't F it up.

You never answered my question.


All else being equal, would you trade KAT, Kyle, and Moore, for Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk?

I didn't see you ask that question anywhere. You suggested we do it, but it was not in the form of a question. It's a trade that has 0.0000001% chance of happening. Maxey would be nice to have, but he's NOT on the market. That said I'm not going to theoretically trade KAT for him.

[winforlose]

Our "window" is the Ant/KAT window. That will be good for the next 6 years. You and many others are way overthinking this. Don't F it up.

You never answered my question.


All else being equal, would you trade KAT, Kyle, and Moore, for Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk?

I didn't see you ask that question anywhere. You suggested we do it, but it was not in the form of a question. It's a trade that has 0.0000001% chance of happening. Maxey would be nice to have, but he's NOT on the market. That said I'm not going to theoretically trade KAT for him.

You overestimate that possibility considerably. You would need to add like 5 0s and even then it probably wouldn’t be realistic. This whole thing is a thought exercise, nothing more. BTW, it isn’t KAT for Maxey. In the original it was KAT for Maxey and Harris, which I changed to KAT, Kyle, Moore, for Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk. Collins has value and would fill some of the hole KAT left behind. But I get your point, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

[shrink]

I also wanted to mention that, aside from KG, there has probably no player besides Towns that more deserves a chance for team success here.

KAT has been extremely loyal to the organization. You have never heard him even whisper about wanting a trade, and he’s never pressured the organization to make moves using that threat. Local media, even those that seem to dislike Towns, talk about their respect for him for always coming out after a tough loss (and he’s seen many), and being the first to accept blame. He never says a negative word about other players or the organization - even when Jimmy was publicly trashing him. We have talked about his willingness to defer to help Ant and Rudy, because it helps the team.


This year is Towns’ best. He has drastically reduced his personal basketball limitations, and the team has benefited. I still think he has been MIN’s best two-way player, even when the national media glorifies Ant and Rudy.

I think Durant would improve our chances of winning a ring, and that is the goal. At the same time, I want to be proud of the organization, and I think trading Towns now would be doing him dirty.

[KGdaBom]

You never answered my question.


All else being equal, would you trade KAT, Kyle, and Moore, for Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk?

I didn't see you ask that question anywhere. You suggested we do it, but it was not in the form of a question. It's a trade that has 0.0000001% chance of happening. Maxey would be nice to have, but he's NOT on the market. That said I'm not going to theoretically trade KAT for him.

You overestimate that possibility considerably. You would need to add like 5 0s and even then it probably wouldn’t be realistic. This whole thing is a thought exercise, nothing more. BTW, it isn’t KAT for Maxey. In the original it was KAT for Maxey and Harris, which I changed to KAT, Kyle, Moore, for Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk. Collins has value and would fill some of the hole KAT left behind. But I get your point, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

You're probably right. I was giving it a much better chance of happening than it actually has . Yeah I knew there was more to it than just Maxey. With the Wolves right now, doing so well, I'm in no hurry to change things. I'm not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend we couldn't be improved upon, but many times the best trade is the one you DON'T make.

[KGdaBom]

I also wanted to mention that, aside from KG, there has probably no player besides Towns that more deserves a chance for team success here.

KAT has been extremely loyal to the organization. You have never heard him even whisper about wanting a trade, and he’s never pressured the organization to make moves using that threat. Local media, even those that seem to dislike Towns, talk about their respect for him for always coming out after a tough loss (and he’s seen many), and being the first to accept blame. He never says a negative word about other players or the organization - even when Jimmy was publicly trashing him. We have talked about his willingness to defer to help Ant and Rudy, because it helps the team.


This year is Towns’ best. He has drastically reduced his personal basketball limitations, and the team has benefited. I still think he has been MIN’s best two-way player, even when the national media glorifies Ant and Rudy.

I think Durant would improve our chances of winning a ring, and that is the goal. At the same time, I want to be proud of the organization, and I think trading Towns now would be doing him dirty.

I agree that as of now KAT has been our best player. Yet we just easily beat the Kings on the road without him. That's what's so amazing about this years team. TEAM is the right word for what we have here. We are not just a collection of individuals. We find a way to win. We TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS.

[Note30]

I think the terminology is getting in the way. We have two windows. The KAT/Rudy window, and the Ant window. The theory is once Rudy expires we need to cut costs, so we likely send KAT out and let Rudy expire and the core becomes Ant, Jaden, Naz and what you get for KAT. Instead, you turn the KAT/Rudy window into one long window. I was fiddling with the trade machine, and I came up with a hypothetical that makes this work better for us.

Wolves out: KAT, Kyle, and Moore
Wolves in: Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk

Suns out: KD, Nurkic
Suns in: KAT, Kyle, Moore, Talen Horton Tucker

76ers out: Maxey, Harris
76ers in: KD

Jazz out: Olynyk, Collins, THT,
Jazz in: Nurkic, Harris


Add whatever picks you need to finish this.


Jazz can resign Harris at a discount and now they have a super big lineup with Harris, Markkanen, and Nurkic ready to support whatever guards they develop or acquire. They can also move Nurk if/when Walker develops.

Phoenix doesn’t need Nurk with KAT on the team and Kyle starting at the 4 for defense. Beal, Allen, Booker, Anderson, KAT is competitive. Moore is a developmental project and THT is probably a good fit.

Philly gets KD to pair with Embiid (though I doubt they trade Maxey for anything.)

Wolves have Collins for size Olynyk for big depth beside Naz, and Maxey who is turning into a scoring machine.

Our "window" is the Ant/KAT window. That will be good for the next 6 years. You and many others are way overthinking this. Don't F it up.

You never answered my question.


All else being equal, would you trade KAT, Kyle, and Moore, for Maxey, Collins, and Olynyk?

No it's a terrible trade.

[Klomp]

I also wanted to mention that, aside from KG, there has probably no player besides Towns that more deserves a chance for team success here.

KAT has been extremely loyal to the organization. You have never heard him even whisper about wanting a trade, and he’s never pressured the organization to make moves using that threat. Local media, even those that seem to dislike Towns, talk about their respect for him for always coming out after a tough loss (and he’s seen many), and being the first to accept blame. He never says a negative word about other players or the organization - even when Jimmy was publicly trashing him. We have talked about his willingness to defer to help Ant and Rudy, because it helps the team.


This year is Towns’ best. He has drastically reduced his personal basketball limitations, and the team has benefited. I still think he has been MIN’s best two-way player, even when the national media glorifies Ant and Rudy.

I think Durant would improve our chances of winning a ring, and that is the goal. At the same time, I want to be proud of the organization, and I think trading Towns now would be doing him dirty.

Well stated.

I actually think that if there's another big move coming in the nearish future (1-2 years), it's going to be Rudy. He's reinvigorated his value enough to a point where a 1+1 contract (or eventually, an all-defensive/DPOY expiring) can bring back a nice piece from a franchise that wants to take a step. I also think we now see that Towns can be a useful building block here if used properly, and isn't as negative as we once thought.

[winforlose]

I also wanted to mention that, aside from KG, there has probably no player besides Towns that more deserves a chance for team success here.

KAT has been extremely loyal to the organization. You have never heard him even whisper about wanting a trade, and he’s never pressured the organization to make moves using that threat. Local media, even those that seem to dislike Towns, talk about their respect for him for always coming out after a tough loss (and he’s seen many), and being the first to accept blame. He never says a negative word about other players or the organization - even when Jimmy was publicly trashing him. We have talked about his willingness to defer to help Ant and Rudy, because it helps the team.


This year is Towns’ best. He has drastically reduced his personal basketball limitations, and the team has benefited. I still think he has been MIN’s best two-way player, even when the national media glorifies Ant and Rudy.

I think Durant would improve our chances of winning a ring, and that is the goal. At the same time, I want to be proud of the organization, and I think trading Towns now would be doing him dirty.

Well stated.

I actually think that if there's another big move coming in the nearish future (1-2 years), it's going to be Rudy. He's reinvigorated his value enough to a point where a 1+1 contract (or eventually, an all-defensive/DPOY expiring) can bring back a nice piece from a franchise that wants to take a step. I also think we now see that Towns can be a useful building block here if used properly, and isn't as negative as we once thought.

I struggle with that. POBOs and GMs always look out for themselves before the team. A 32-33 year old Rudy on a player option or expiring is a very different value proposition. I don’t know what we get back for him, but it is much less then we sent out. We also are unlikely to send Karl back to the 5 after he killed it at the 4. So now you are talking about a big for big swap with serious compensation coming back. I just don’t see it. If anything, we try and convince Rudy to resign with us at a discount so that we keep the continuity with Ant and Jaden and move on from KAT because unlike Rudy at that point KAT will be a supermax for 2 more years. KAT being younger than Rudy, better established in the league (than he currently is,) with one or more rings and still relatively young, will make him much more valuable.