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Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#821 » by winforlose » Thu Jan 2, 2025 11:37 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
winforlose wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
I loved Pek, but if you think he created spacing in the paint you were watching someone else.

Rubio made the Playoffs 2 straight years after we traded him. We failed him, he didn't fail us.

If you're going to judge players by how many times they made the Playoffs as Timberwolves, its going to be a very short discussion...


No one could guard Pek one on one in the post. He was the strongest Wolf. His foot issues shortened what would have been a stellar career.

So you’re saying Rubio is so good all it took was a Donovan Mitchell, prime Joe Ingles, and DOP Rudy Gobert to get to the playoffs. Also, we made the playoffs without him the very first year, (with a healthy Jeff Teague.)

Here is a link to Ricky’s BB ref page, please help me out and clarify, how many years as a Wolf was Ricky able to shoot 40% or better? https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rubiori01.html

Also please note that Jaden at 43.2% is considered offensively challenged.


No one has ever said Rubio was a good shooter. But the NBA isn't a video game. There are more ways to drive winning than shooting.

Rubio was a +10 Net Rating player with us most years of his career.

Do you not understand how bad of a franchise the Wolves have been for most of their existence? We were only able to get KG out of the 1st round 1 time in 12 years. We didn't even make the Playoffs his final 3 years when he was a healthy 28, 29 and 30 years old.


Understand it, I lived a good chunk of it, (was too young for some of the KG years, but was fully invested in the team by the early 2000s.)

When you play a non shooter the dynamics of the game change. Take our last game, Rudy being on IHart is very different than Rudy on a Wemby or Chet. Free roaming bigs can do a lot of damage. Any time a Ricky or Rudy is in the game you create that roaming threat. Last season we saw Kyle and Rudy together and it was terrible. The spacing went to hell, and the whole game got that much harder for the other players. I use terms like easy and hard because much like the law the game isn’t black or white. Guys can make bad shots and miss good ones. The best way to put yourself in a position to win is to get players who compliment each other. I listed 6 guys who can pass well, floor space, play a heavy load, and each contribute something different. Lonzo is a guy who has played 50 games in 4 years, at best he is a MASSIVE risk at a pivotal moment. We have no picks, we don’t know about ownerships pockets, we have an unhappy Ant, and we have multiple key role players heading into UFA status. You don’t gamble when your house is at stake, and right now we are a house covered in gasoline in every room and playing with matches (terrible off season and trade.) The wrong trade will burn the Wolves down.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#822 » by BlacJacMac » Thu Jan 2, 2025 11:50 pm

Ball is absolutely a risk. A huge one. He's also a really huge reward if he's past the knee problem. You're gambling that he's Shaun Livingston and not Brandon Roy. That's why we also get Smith - and if Ball does flame out, we do regain some financial flexibility.

I'm all for a Randle for Murray trade, but I don't think NOP has any interest. Coby White or Simons just add to our backlog of SGs that can't run a team (and neither plays a lick of defense). I think both are horrible fits next to Ant. They'll just take turns dominating the ball. Pippen is a really nice roleplayer that MEM has no need to shop. Especially for anything we would offer.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#823 » by cmoss84 » Thu Jan 2, 2025 11:56 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
cmoss84 wrote:I was actually thinking more of a 3 team trade with Chi and Detroit now that Ivey is done. Mike might be needed there?
Ball (23) RD (15) NAW (10)
ANT (28) NAW (15) Ball (5)


Mike isn't going to agree to go to Detroit.

(Although I'm not sure how he has a No-Trade Clause, as he doesn't actually qualify for one. I guess maybe its a "guarantee" from TC not to trade him? If that's the case, it's likely not enforceable, but would be an incredibly bad look to renege on).

He does have a full no trade clause. You're probably right with Detroit...but maybe Chicago would be appealing to him to back up White and stay with his new best friend Julius :roll:
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#824 » by winforlose » Fri Jan 3, 2025 12:12 am

BlacJacMac wrote:Ball is absolutely a risk. A huge one. He's also a really huge reward if he's past the knee problem. You're gambling that he's Shaun Livingston and not Brandon Roy. That's why we also get Smith - and if Ball does flame out, we do regain some financial flexibility.

I'm all for a Randle for Murray trade, but I don't think NOP has any interest. Coby White or Simons just add to our backlog of SGs that can't run a team (and neither plays a lick of defense). I think both are horrible fits next to Ant. They'll just take turns dominating the ball. Pippen is a really nice roleplayer that MEM has no need to shop. Especially for anything we would offer.


White can run PG and has a track record of success doing it. Murray is having a down year, and it would involve a 3rd team. Simons isn’t a high priority for me, but his shooting and spacing would be very dynamic with the opportunities that Ant’s gravity provides. I also wonder about the 2 man game PNR and PNP between both Rudy and Simons, but also Ant and Simons. That could be quite something. SPJ might not be on the market, but who knows.

Regarding financial flexibility, I cannot help but be reminded of the DLO debate. On the one hand DLO wasn’t worth the money he wanted, but his salary slot was important because if we lost him for nothing we couldn’t easily replace him. If we trade for and lose Lonzo to UFA (good or bad play,) then we have a very limited set of options to replace him. We essentially trade Randle for Smith and that is in my book another trade loss. With no PGs other than aged Mike and a young and undersized Dilly (with questionable durability given his ankle issues,) I think we definitely lose Ant either next year or the year after. Then we are in full rebuild without our own picks.

Finally you won’t answer my question. Is Lonzo the starting PG or the backup. Because if he is the starter he needs to be able to hold up for Playoff minutes. If he is the backup, then he joins the best unit on the team who doesn’t need his playmaking. This is far more likely to not work than to work.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#825 » by BlacJacMac » Fri Jan 3, 2025 12:17 am

cmoss84 wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
cmoss84 wrote:I was actually thinking more of a 3 team trade with Chi and Detroit now that Ivey is done. Mike might be needed there?
Ball (23) RD (15) NAW (10)
ANT (28) NAW (15) Ball (5)


Mike isn't going to agree to go to Detroit.

(Although I'm not sure how he has a No-Trade Clause, as he doesn't actually qualify for one. I guess maybe its a "guarantee" from TC not to trade him? If that's the case, it's likely not enforceable, but would be an incredibly bad look to renege on).

He does have a full no trade clause. You're probably right with Detroit...but maybe Chicago would be appealing to him to back up White and stay with his new best friend Julius :roll:


There have only been 10 true no-trade clauses in NBA history and Conley doesn't qualify to be the 11th.

So the only way he really has one is if there is an option on his 2nd year:

Players who re-sign with their previous team for one year, or a two-year deal with an option year, are also given no-trade protection.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#826 » by BlacJacMac » Fri Jan 3, 2025 12:26 am

winforlose wrote:Finally you won’t answer my question. Is Lonzo the starting PG or the backup. Because if he is the starter he needs to be able to hold up for Playoff minutes. If he is the backup, then he joins the best unit on the team who doesn’t need his playmaking. This is far more likely to not work than to work.


Because it doesn't really matter, does it?

Its about matchups and rotations. This isn't hockey. You don't have to five in/five out. And the starter doesn't need to play the most minutes. I'd start Mike today because Ball is still recovering and needs to get used to his teammates. And then start shifting more and more minutes to Ball as he can handle them. Let them be 22 and 20 right now even. Then you have 6 minutes for Dilly, or you can play two SGs for a stretch if we're against a team that doesn't put pressure on the ballhandler. Hopefully by the end of the year Ball is playing 28-30 MPG.

Once Ball is acclimated, if the team plays better with him starting games, great - do it.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#827 » by cmoss84 » Fri Jan 3, 2025 6:46 am

I know I throw a lot of outlandish shite out there...but this one I found interesting because each team benefitted so much financially.
so here it is. Draft picks can be exchanged however you like.

Bulls IN: Randle, Clarkson
out: Ball, Smith, Duarte, Buzelis
(1st apron hard-capped)

Clippers IN: Ball, DD, Filipowski, Kessler
out: Powell, Zubac, DJJr
(1st apron hard-capped)

Jazz IN: DJJr, Smith, Duarte, Buzelis, Minott
out: Clarkson, Filipowski, Kessler
(under 1st apron)

MN IN: Powell and Zubac
out: Randle, DD, Minott
(under 1st apron)
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 1[emoji239[emoji2392]]): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#828 » by minimus » Fri Jan 3, 2025 10:11 am

Heathy Lonzo Ball is a perfect fit. There was a short stretch in 2021/22 with him and Caruso leading CHI defense, they were one of NBA top defenses, even with Vucevic. So if TC assembles a defensive unit Gobert-McDaniels-NAW-Ball-DDV they will be a nightmare to score against. The problem with Randle and Edwards is that a team might have issues incorporate another 20PPG scorer, but a team can always incorporate another elite defender. It is just another dynamic since a defender doesn't need ball in his hands to be effective. And as it was noted here many times Lonzo address MIN major problems:

- size at PG. The moment Conley steps on the floor in clutch he gets hunted in defense, because opponent sees in him a favourable matchup. Lonzo is capable to defend PG/SG and some SFs.

- transition offense. Lonzo is a natural fit if MIN wants to run in transition. He is big, he can rebound and pass

- Lonzo knows how to run offense. He is a natural facilitator, unlike NAW, DDV and Edwards. And being low volume shooter, he can put like 5pts, 5 rebs 5ast game and be highly efficient. While I am concerned to lose Randle's 20ppg, 7rpg, 4.4apg, but I believe that at the moment McDaniels, DDV and Edwards don't play their best game in offense
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#829 » by SuperCoolBeas8 » Fri Jan 3, 2025 3:52 pm

A healthy Lonzo Ball would be a perfect fit.

I’m not gambling on him unless it’s a league minimum FA contract. That would be foolish. The guy missed 2 years with injuries. He’s only played in 15 games this season. This screams Brandon Roy part 2. The injury aspect, of course. Ball was never on Roy’s level.

Pass! Next trade idea, please.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#830 » by winforlose » Fri Jan 3, 2025 5:13 pm

cmoss84 wrote:I know I throw a lot of outlandish shite out there...but this one I found interesting because each team benefitted so much financially.
so here it is. Draft picks can be exchanged however you like.

Bulls IN: Randle, Clarkson
out: Ball, Smith, Duarte, Buzelis
(1st apron hard-capped)

Clippers IN: Ball, DD, Filipowski, Kessler
out: Powell, Zubac, DJJr
(1st apron hard-capped)

Jazz IN: DJJr, Smith, Duarte, Buzelis, Minott
out: Clarkson, Filipowski, Kessler
(under 1st apron)

MN IN: Powell and Zubac
out: Randle, DD, Minott
(under 1st apron)


1. I think if you post this on the trade board Utah and Chicago fans both get angry. I think the Jazz have no incentive to make this trade, and the Bulls would be selling low on the 11th pick in the draft.

2. Zu has been starting for a long time. Putting him behind Rudy would cause massive locker room problems. Powell is an excellent sniper and a poor defender with injury issues. He will want to start and that means moving Jaden to the bench. Jaden will regress and our defense will lose its identity.

There is more but the above covers it. I like the end result of getting under the tax line and thus expanding our window. But if we go that route we will 100% lose Ant, and we will be trying to blow things up without control of our future. Contenders pay tax and Ant will want to contend. This deal won’t happen, and any deal that pulls us under the tax line is likely much worse for us.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#831 » by cmoss84 » Fri Jan 3, 2025 7:02 pm

Not saying I want it to happen...but could see us being a part of a 3 team trade if Butler forces his way out. Does Orlando want him?
Orlando in: Butler
Miami in: Randle and KCP
Us: Isaac, Jovic, JJJ
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#832 » by Klomp » Fri Jan 3, 2025 7:28 pm

SuperCoolBeas8 wrote:The guy missed 2 years with injuries. He’s only played in 15 games this season. This screams Brandon Roy part 2.

Roy played only 5 games and his minutes gradually dropped from his first to his fifth. Ball has played in triple the games and his minutes have been on an upward trajectory.

I understand the fear which is leading the comparison, but it just isn't a good comp to make.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#833 » by BlacJacMac » Fri Jan 3, 2025 7:36 pm

Klomp wrote:
SuperCoolBeas8 wrote:The guy missed 2 years with injuries. He’s only played in 15 games this season. This screams Brandon Roy part 2.

Roy played only 5 games and his minutes gradually dropped from his first to his fifth. Ball has played in triple the games and his minutes have been on an upward trajectory.

I understand the fear which is leading the comparison, but it just isn't a good comp to make.


If there wasn't the injury risk, he'd never be available.
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Trade Talk (Part 1[emoji239[emoji2392]]): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#834 » by minimus » Fri Jan 3, 2025 7:41 pm

BlacJacMac wrote:
If there wasn't the injury risk, he'd never be available.

Well... CHI traded Caruso...
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 1[emoji239[emoji2392]]): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#835 » by BlacJacMac » Fri Jan 3, 2025 7:48 pm

minimus wrote:
BlacJacMac wrote:
If there wasn't the injury risk, he'd never be available.

Well... CHI traded Caruso...


Because they didn't want to pay him his next deal.

Lonzo Ball >> Alex Caruso.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#836 » by Slim Tubby » Fri Jan 3, 2025 9:29 pm

Norseman79 wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:

I only disagree with two things you said, one is Ant needing to be better with the ball in his hands. We need to get a playmaking point guard to take some of that pressure off of Ant. He is a scorer who can make plays for others, he isn't a playmaker for others who can score.

The other thing I disagree with is you mention it not being a talent thing, everything you said about guys going off is true and it's also true for pretty much every team in the league. We need someone who is consistent. Not one game here, one game there. This team, as is, SHOULD make the playoffs, COULD win a first round series depending on matchup, but, short of very unforeseen developments would stop there.


I agree Ant isn’t a playmaker. But if he is going to have the ball in his hands to start a possession he needs to know what to do with it, and how to punish the defense for overloading on him.

We hear about the 8 starters on the Wolves every game. Most teams have 6 or maybe 7 guys like that, we have 8. That might not sound like a big deal, but it is. That means Naz can have a terrible night and someone else can pick up the slack. The starters can dig holes and the bench can dig them out. Increasing consistency is important on an individual level, but maximizing the ability of the X factor players to impact and ultimately win the game is the team priority. The other night it was DDV, and tomorrow it might be Rudy. Regardless of who and how and why, we need to know what to do when that X factor goes off.


Who exactly are the 8 starters? I count three, maybe four on a Western Conference playoff team.
Agreed. Conley and Jaden aren't starting for a quality Playoff team and Rudy is only effective on the defensive side of the court.

Not having an athletic PG to act as a primary ball handler and facilitator for Ant forces him into a role that he is neither comfortable with or effective doing.

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#837 » by TheZachAttack » Fri Jan 3, 2025 9:45 pm

I would trade Jaden, Leonard Miller (or Minott or TSJ), and the Detroit 1st for Cam Johnson. I think that Jaden could be a valuable player but not within this roster construction. This trade would immediately make our roster make a lot more sense:

Cam Johnson playing the minutes on the floor that Jaden does would immediately make our lineups much harder to defend and make defenses pay.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#838 » by Slim Tubby » Fri Jan 3, 2025 10:11 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:I would trade Jaden, Leonard Miller (or Minott or TSJ), and the Detroit 1st for Cam Johnson. I think that Jaden could be a valuable player but not within this roster construction. This trade would immediately make our roster make a lot more sense:

Cam Johnson playing the minutes on the floor that Jaden does would immediately make our lineups much harder to defend and make defenses pay.
We can't aggregate but I'm a big fan of Cam Johnson, especially on his current deal. It seems more like a possible deal for Randle and then maybe use Jaden to upgrade our PG position?

And FREE JOSH MINOTT!!!

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#839 » by younggunsmn » Sat Jan 4, 2025 4:31 am

younggunsmn wrote:Here's a wild one for sake of at least entertaining the possibility of moving Randle:
I know MIA said they aren't trading Butler, but...

MIN IN: Huerter, Trey Lyles, Haywood Highsmith, Nikola Jovic, multiple draft picks from Sac and MIA
MIN OUT: Randle, Leonard Miller, (structured as separate trades)
Cut: PJ Dozier, Joe Ingles

MIA IN: Demar Derozan, Julius Randle,
MIA OUT: Jimmy Butler, Haywood Highsmith, Nikola Jovic, 2nd round picks

SAC IN: Jimmy Butler, Leonard Miller,
SAC OUT: Derozan, Lyles, Huerter

The core is Butler>Randle+Derozan>Draft Picks with the rest necessary salary filler and roster spot allocation.

Lyles is expiring, Huerter is under contract for 18 mil next year, Highsmith 5.5, and Jovic 4.4 next year.
Should get a 1st for eating those contracts as they are necessary to salary match, probably coming from Sacramento.
Jovic is a 21 year old 6'10 stretch 4 and Highsmith is a rotation quality 3+D wing we could possibly dump into someone's trade exception. Someone might even take Lyles.
And Huerter is a mid range salary matching piece if we want to swing another trade.

How many draft picks would you want attached to make this trade given the salary we are taking on for next year vs gambling on Randle's player option? Insert Naz into the starting lineup and have Jovic and Lyles as stretch 4 backup options.
Use the stretch provision next year on Huerter if necessary if we want to bring back NAW or Naz.


Bumping this with Pat Riley going from "we're not trading Jimmy Butler" to suspending him and looking to trade him in just 7 days.

I think Randle might be a logical fit in a 3-teamer with Randle going to Miami and other stuff coming to us.
Would be great if we could get a starting caliber PG to push Mike to the bench and balance our roster and a developmental stretch 4 with maybe Jovic coming here from Miami.

Remember we can't aggregate contracts so we are limited to players making under 33.07 million in salary if we are sending Randle out.

Sacramento would be an interesting candidate for Butler with their desperation to win to keep Fox happy.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 16): Early Season Anxiety Edition 

Post#840 » by winforlose » Sat Jan 4, 2025 4:47 am

Slim Tubby wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:
winforlose wrote:
I agree Ant isn’t a playmaker. But if he is going to have the ball in his hands to start a possession he needs to know what to do with it, and how to punish the defense for overloading on him.

We hear about the 8 starters on the Wolves every game. Most teams have 6 or maybe 7 guys like that, we have 8. That might not sound like a big deal, but it is. That means Naz can have a terrible night and someone else can pick up the slack. The starters can dig holes and the bench can dig them out. Increasing consistency is important on an individual level, but maximizing the ability of the X factor players to impact and ultimately win the game is the team priority. The other night it was DDV, and tomorrow it might be Rudy. Regardless of who and how and why, we need to know what to do when that X factor goes off.


Who exactly are the 8 starters? I count three, maybe four on a Western Conference playoff team.
Agreed. Conley and Jaden aren't starting for a quality Playoff team and Rudy is only effective on the defensive side of the court.

Not having an athletic PG to act as a primary ball handler and facilitator for Ant forces him into a role that he is neither comfortable with or effective doing.

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1. Rudy is a terrific screen assister. He doesn’t get enough credit for the PNR and PNP impact, and the lack of PNR game this year isn’t his fault. Rudy like Jaden and DDV has been misused a lot this year, and that is on Finch.

2. Mike might be our weakest of the 8, but he still has an impact. Is he really that much worse than CP3? How many open shots has Mike passed into that guys missed.

3. Jaden in the playoffs is next level. How many guys look that good in 3 series against such diverse opponents while being the 4 or 5th option. Jaden is too inconsistent and that typically is the mark of a bench player. But, if you forced DDR (an easy example,) to only stand in a corner and chuck 3s, he would look much worse as well.

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