Ben Simmons Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[FinnTheHuman]

Ideal Wolves POV offer…

Prince + Beverley + Bolmaro + 1sts

3rd team can be added, and of course the amount of 1sts involved is big value stress point.

But if Wolves could run this lineup out there:

Towns
Simmons
McDaniels | Edwards
Edwards | Beasley (6th man)
Russell

Yes, keeping Beasley can pinch the purse, but deal with that latter. Let him showcase, raining down 3’s will only raise his trade value — while he helps make those owed 1sts to 76ers less valuable.

I don't see the point in posting fairytale scenarios, Morey would have to be on drugs to accept that offer. We will need to send Beasley or DLo, no other way around it.

Not true.

1) Assuming Russell is quickly off table. Broship.
2) If as discussed above, Beasley and his past lower Morey’s evaluation of him, he is now removed.
3) McDaniels or Bolmaro are the youth sent (if not both), but if win-now is the goal for Rosas, McDaniels stays, Bolmaro goes (to 3rd team for a 1st).
4) Two Wolves 1sts and two swaps would be the starting offer with such a deal. But Rosas would have to be ok stretching to 3x 1sts (ideally while adding some increased protections).

It is true. Wolves getting Simmons is entirely predicated on 6ers maybe wanting Beasley or maybe wanting DLo, all the other assets are lesser and are there to add supplemental value. Believing otherwise is delusional.

[Krapinsky]

Even if that was the case (it is not), Morey would be dumbest negotiator ever not to use that in leverage.

Rosas didn’t.

The deal turned out to be good, but I think he should have squeezed him. Rosas didn’t make the Beasley situation, and he had far more leverage. The crime wasn’t old news back then (I believe it happened about a week before he signing), plus back then, no one new how many games Beasley would lose due to NBA suspension and jail time.

It shows just how "powerful" that "leverage" is/was.

Beasley still held some leverage in the deal. Rosas was pot-committed at that point, having just traded a pick for Beasley. Beasley could have called his bluff and signed the one year qualifying offer. I think Rosas probably got a $1-2M/year discount and/or the team option.

[Wolveswin]

I don't see the point in posting fairytale scenarios, Morey would have to be on drugs to accept that offer. We will need to send Beasley or DLo, no other way around it.

Not true.

1) Assuming Russell is quickly off table. Broship.
2) If as discussed above, Beasley and his past lower Morey’s evaluation of him, he is now removed.
3) McDaniels or Bolmaro are the youth sent (if not both), but if win-now is the goal for Rosas, McDaniels stays, Bolmaro goes (to 3rd team for a 1st).
4) Two Wolves 1sts and two swaps would be the starting offer with such a deal. But Rosas would have to be ok stretching to 3x 1sts (ideally while adding some increased protections).

It is true. Wolves getting Simmons is entirely predicated on 6ers maybe wanting Beasley or maybe wanting DLo, all the other assets are lesser and are there to add supplemental value. Believing otherwise is delusional.

How do you know that? Morey told you that himself?

Fact is Beasley is only in deal if Morey doesn’t discount him. If he does discount him, the deal becomes even more draft pick centric. Simple math really.

[moonpie]

Read on Twitter

On today's Hoop Collective Windy clarified Simmons contract as well. On July 1st he got about a quarter of his salary and another quarter due on October 1st, a couple days into camp. Then the remaining gets divvied up the rest of the season beginning mid-november.

So basically before Philly can even begin to fine Simmons he'll already have about half his year's salary.

[FinnTheHuman]

Not true.

1) Assuming Russell is quickly off table. Broship.
2) If as discussed above, Beasley and his past lower Morey’s evaluation of him, he is now removed.
3) McDaniels or Bolmaro are the youth sent (if not both), but if win-now is the goal for Rosas, McDaniels stays, Bolmaro goes (to 3rd team for a 1st).
4) Two Wolves 1sts and two swaps would be the starting offer with such a deal. But Rosas would have to be ok stretching to 3x 1sts (ideally while adding some increased protections).

It is true. Wolves getting Simmons is entirely predicated on 6ers maybe wanting Beasley or maybe wanting DLo, all the other assets are lesser and are there to add supplemental value. Believing otherwise is delusional.

How do you know that? Morey told you that himself?

Fact is Beasley is only in deal if Morey doesn’t discount him. If he does discount him, the deal becomes even more draft pick centric. Simple math really.

Simple math is Philly isn't in the business of hoarding draft picks, they're attempting to build around Embiid and win now. We either send them substantial win-now pieces along with picks that they can trade to the 3rd team for more win-now pieces, or they don't deal with us.

And our picks don't have enough value if they send us Simmons, those picks are late lottery 1sts at best in that case, but probably in the 17-20 range. How do you plan to sell somebody the idea that even 3 1st rounders in that range are equal in value to Simmons, when all the actual players we're sending with those picks have neutral value at best with their contracts?

Beverley and Prince are not top 100 in the NBA, more in the 120-150 range, Bolmaro is not even that. Every GM including Morey knows that 1 top 40 player is better than hoarding a bunch of mediocre players and picks, because that doesn't win you NBA games, top shelf talent wins you NBA games.

So, to clarify:
3x 1st rounders in 17-20 range + Beverley + Bolmaro + Prince <<<< Simmons
McDaniels + Beasley + 2 1sts in 17-20 range ~ Simmons
DLo + 17-20 range 1st rounder ~ Simmons

And Simmons is probably better than any of those deals, but a malcontent Simmons is I suppose around equal.

Please, stop wasting space in this thread by proposing these delusional ideas, this is not 2k, you're just getting in the way of a realistic conversation that everybody would like to have in here.

[shrink]

Rosas didn’t.

The deal turned out to be good, but I think he should have squeezed him. Rosas didn’t make the Beasley situation, and he had far more leverage. The crime wasn’t old news back then (I believe it happened about a week before he signing), plus back then, no one new how many games Beasley would lose due to NBA suspension and jail time.

It shows just how "powerful" that "leverage" is/was.

Beasley still held some leverage in the deal. Rosas was pot-committed at that point, having just traded a pick for Beasley. Beasley could have called his bluff and signed the one year qualifying offer. I think Rosas probably got a $1-2M/year discount and/or the team option.

“Pot-committed”.

The other factors were that Beasley wanted to lock up multiple guaranteed years a week after he was arrested. He hadn’t made much money in the NBA, and there was never a time when a player needed to worry more about his future.

Beasley also had only put up those very good numbers over 14 games in MIN. DEN never gave him the minutes or the ball, and he had averaged just 7.9 PPG for the Nuggets in the first part of the season. 14 games is not enough to guarantee you’re a good player, especially if your calling card is three point shooting, which can be a highly variable number over small samples.

With those two things in play, and millions on the line, I don’t think he could have risked playing for the QO. I will admit Beasley is a risky dude. I remember he played in camp without a contract, where an injury could have ruined his future earning potential. But by giving Beasley that contract, the Wolves were assuming all the risk, and taking the PR hit at the worst time.

I think the number should have started at the MLE ($9.5) rather than $13.4. In the end though, it all worked out. Beasley reproduced the numbers from his 14 game sample the following year, the NBA suspension and criminal penalties were minor (and now disposed of), he kept his nose clean for a year and by all accounts, he was a good, professional teammate on the floor and in the locker room. I think he is still on a good deal, so that’s fine, but I think considering the extreme circumstances, it should have been even better.

[Klomp]

On today's Hoop Collective Windy clarified Simmons contract as well. On July 1st he got about a quarter of his salary and another quarter due on October 1st, a couple days into camp. Then the remaining gets divvied up the rest of the season beginning mid-november.

So basically before Philly can even begin to fine Simmons he'll already have about half his year's salary.

Correct me if I'm wrong shrink, but I believe this can benefit the Timberwolves in terms of luxury tax payments. Because techically we wouldn't be paying him that first and second quarter of his salary (unless a deal is done before October), those payments aren't factored into our luxury tax calculations.

[shrink]

On today's Hoop Collective Windy clarified Simmons contract as well. On July 1st he got about a quarter of his salary and another quarter due on October 1st, a couple days into camp. Then the remaining gets divvied up the rest of the season beginning mid-november.

So basically before Philly can even begin to fine Simmons he'll already have about half his year's salary.

Correct me if I'm wrong shrink, but I believe this can benefit the Timberwolves in terms of luxury tax payments. Because techically we wouldn't be paying him that first and second quarter of his salary (unless a deal is done before October), those payments aren't factored into our luxury tax calculations.

You know, I’m not sure! They may pro-rate it, but you could be right here. You might want to run that by the people on the CBA board. Good question!

I did hear an interesting take, that if PHI doesn’t pay Simmons for not showing up (which is unlikely), a team that he later gets traded to could legally not pay him his full salary. It’s unlikely to happen, because you don’t want to anger your new guy, but I think they said it’s like $1.3 mil a week, or something ridiculous.

[KGdaBom]

On today's Hoop Collective Windy clarified Simmons contract as well. On July 1st he got about a quarter of his salary and another quarter due on October 1st, a couple days into camp. Then the remaining gets divvied up the rest of the season beginning mid-november.

So basically before Philly can even begin to fine Simmons he'll already have about half his year's salary.

Correct me if I'm wrong shrink, but I believe this can benefit the Timberwolves in terms of luxury tax payments. Because techically we wouldn't be paying him that first and second quarter of his salary (unless a deal is done before October), those payments aren't factored into our luxury tax calculations.

This is extremely interesting news regarding Simmons pay. Kind of forces them into trading him before they have to pay him on 10/1/21, UNLESS the team trading to them has to pick up an equal portion of the salaries they are sending out.

[moonpie]

Read on Twitter

[Wolveswin]

It is true. Wolves getting Simmons is entirely predicated on 6ers maybe wanting Beasley or maybe wanting DLo, all the other assets are lesser and are there to add supplemental value. Believing otherwise is delusional.

How do you know that? Morey told you that himself?

Fact is Beasley is only in deal if Morey doesn’t discount him. If he does discount him, the deal becomes even more draft pick centric. Simple math really.

Simple math is Philly isn't in the business of hoarding draft picks, they're attempting to build around Embiid and win now. We either send them substantial win-now pieces along with picks that they can trade to the 3rd team for more win-now pieces, or they don't deal with us.

And our picks don't have enough value if they send us Simmons, those picks are late lottery 1sts at best in that case, but probably in the 17-20 range. How do you plan to sell somebody the idea that even 3 1st rounders in that range are equal in value to Simmons, when all the actual players we're sending with those picks have neutral value at best with their contracts?

Beverley and Prince are not top 100 in the NBA, more in the 120-150 range, Bolmaro is not even that. Every GM including Morey knows that 1 top 40 player is better than hoarding a bunch of mediocre players and picks, because that doesn't win you NBA games, top shelf talent wins you NBA games.

So, to clarify:
3x 1st rounders in 17-20 range + Beverley + Bolmaro + Prince <<<< Simmons
McDaniels + Beasley + 2 1sts in 17-20 range ~ Simmons
DLo + 17-20 range 1st rounder ~ Simmons

And Simmons is probably better than any of those deals, but a malcontent Simmons is I suppose around equal.

Please, stop wasting space in this thread by proposing these delusional ideas, this is not 2k, you're just getting in the way of a realistic conversation that everybody would like to have in here.

Philly is in the business of hoarding draft picks if the win now player they desire isn’t part of the best offer from the team wanting Simmons the most. Hint: that win-now player isn’t Beasley.

Morey is smart enough to know, that when Beal or Dame become available — or some other vet he covets — the better non negative filler (ideally expiring) he has and more 1sts (owed from Wolves is sexy) gets him his desired vet (who is NOT on the table now)! It is not happening in one trade, because that vet isn’t available now.

Again for your reading comprehension, if Morey doesn’t value Beasley either due to his background or doesn’t value him as asset to acquire future desired vet, Wolves don’t include him — instead they add 1sts.

Quit acting like Beasley is some widely valuable piece for Morey. We aren’t even sure he values him at all. Will Beasley be in the deal? Maybe. Maybe even most likely. But to dismiss the fact Morey might not value Beasley and/or value draft picks more is just pure being naive.

[Domejandro]

I am going to be honest, the Beasley off-court stuff really doesn't matter, in the context of a trade this large-scale. Especially with someone as analytically driven as Daryl Morey, I wouldn't be concerned about that.

[FinnTheHuman]

How do you know that? Morey told you that himself?

Fact is Beasley is only in deal if Morey doesn’t discount him. If he does discount him, the deal becomes even more draft pick centric. Simple math really.

Simple math is Philly isn't in the business of hoarding draft picks, they're attempting to build around Embiid and win now. We either send them substantial win-now pieces along with picks that they can trade to the 3rd team for more win-now pieces, or they don't deal with us.

And our picks don't have enough value if they send us Simmons, those picks are late lottery 1sts at best in that case, but probably in the 17-20 range. How do you plan to sell somebody the idea that even 3 1st rounders in that range are equal in value to Simmons, when all the actual players we're sending with those picks have neutral value at best with their contracts?

Beverley and Prince are not top 100 in the NBA, more in the 120-150 range, Bolmaro is not even that. Every GM including Morey knows that 1 top 40 player is better than hoarding a bunch of mediocre players and picks, because that doesn't win you NBA games, top shelf talent wins you NBA games.

So, to clarify:
3x 1st rounders in 17-20 range + Beverley + Bolmaro + Prince <<<< Simmons
McDaniels + Beasley + 2 1sts in 17-20 range ~ Simmons
DLo + 17-20 range 1st rounder ~ Simmons

And Simmons is probably better than any of those deals, but a malcontent Simmons is I suppose around equal.

Please, stop wasting space in this thread by proposing these delusional ideas, this is not 2k, you're just getting in the way of a realistic conversation that everybody would like to have in here.

Philly is in the business of hoarding draft picks if the win now player they desire isn’t part of the best offer from the team wanting Simmons the most. Hint: that win-now player isn’t Beasley.

Morey is smart enough to know, that when Beal or Dame become available — or some other vet he covets — the better non negative filler (ideally expiring) he has and more 1sts (owed from Wolves is sexy) gets him his desired vet (who is NOT on the table now)! It is not happening in one trade, because that vet isn’t available now.

Again for your reading comprehension, if Morey doesn’t value Beasley either due to his background or doesn’t value him as asset to acquire future desired vet, Wolves don’t include him — instead they add 1sts.

Quit acting like Beasley is some widely valuable piece for Morey. We aren’t even sure he values him at all. Will Beasley be in the deal? Maybe. Maybe even most likely. But to dismiss the fact Morey might not value Beasley and/or value draft picks more is just pure being naive.

There is a chance that Morey values Beasley because of what he’s shown in the last 2 seasons for the Wolves, despite his crime, and there is no chance Morey values a late 1st rounder as a replacement for Beasley, because Beasley is worth much more than a late 1st rounder, it’s that simple. Philly is considering only DLo, Beasley and McDaniels, picks and other players are just supplemental, and no, those picks won’t be enough to land a Beal or a Lillard at any point in time, Philly won’t find a trade of that sort later on.

Philly leaves the table if DLo or Beasley are not offered to them, deal with it, they’re not taking that trash offer you’re proposing, these people aren’t idiots.

You’re being unrealistic, and there’s no reason for that, we’re not the Wolves FO trying to start the negotiation by low-balling the 6erss, we’re just observing the realities of the situation as fans.

[the_process]

I am going to be honest, the Beasley off-court stuff really doesn't matter, in the context of a trade this large-scale. Especially with someone as analytically driven as Daryl Morey, I wouldn't be concerned about that.

From a Philadelphia perspective, I absolutely think it does matter. That being said, it’s certainly possible Daryl takes him anyway.

[jpatrick]

I am going to be honest, the Beasley off-court stuff really doesn't matter, in the context of a trade this large-scale. Especially with someone as analytically driven as Daryl Morey, I wouldn't be concerned about that.

From a Philadelphia perspective, I absolutely think it does matter. That being said, it’s certainly possible Daryl takes him anyway.

I don’t think it matters because what’s happening is just routine business nowadays, but will the fact Beasley is repped by Klutch make a difference to Morey. It does seem it’s become a bit contentious.

[KGdaBom]

How do you know that? Morey told you that himself?

Fact is Beasley is only in deal if Morey doesn’t discount him. If he does discount him, the deal becomes even more draft pick centric. Simple math really.

Simple math is Philly isn't in the business of hoarding draft picks, they're attempting to build around Embiid and win now. We either send them substantial win-now pieces along with picks that they can trade to the 3rd team for more win-now pieces, or they don't deal with us.

And our picks don't have enough value if they send us Simmons, those picks are late lottery 1sts at best in that case, but probably in the 17-20 range. How do you plan to sell somebody the idea that even 3 1st rounders in that range are equal in value to Simmons, when all the actual players we're sending with those picks have neutral value at best with their contracts?

Beverley and Prince are not top 100 in the NBA, more in the 120-150 range, Bolmaro is not even that. Every GM including Morey knows that 1 top 40 player is better than hoarding a bunch of mediocre players and picks, because that doesn't win you NBA games, top shelf talent wins you NBA games.

So, to clarify:
3x 1st rounders in 17-20 range + Beverley + Bolmaro + Prince <<<< Simmons
McDaniels + Beasley + 2 1sts in 17-20 range ~ Simmons
DLo + 17-20 range 1st rounder ~ Simmons

And Simmons is probably better than any of those deals, but a malcontent Simmons is I suppose around equal.

Please, stop wasting space in this thread by proposing these delusional ideas, this is not 2k, you're just getting in the way of a realistic conversation that everybody would like to have in here.

Philly is in the business of hoarding draft picks if the win now player they desire isn’t part of the best offer from the team wanting Simmons the most. Hint: that win-now player isn’t Beasley.

Morey is smart enough to know, that when Beal or Dame become available — or some other vet he covets — the better non negative filler (ideally expiring) he has and more 1sts (owed from Wolves is sexy) gets him his desired vet (who is NOT on the table now)! It is not happening in one trade, because that vet isn’t available now.

Again for your reading comprehension, if Morey doesn’t value Beasley either due to his background or doesn’t value him as asset to acquire future desired vet, Wolves don’t include him — instead they add 1sts.

Quit acting like Beasley is some widely valuable piece for Morey. We aren’t even sure he values him at all. Will Beasley be in the deal? Maybe. Maybe even most likely. But to dismiss the fact Morey might not value Beasley and/or value draft picks more is just pure being naive.

Beasley is the most valuable piece the Wolves will offer, followed by McDaniels, then one of Beverley or Prince. I definitely think Morey will want Beasley so he will be included in any Simmons deal.

[shrink]

https://www.phillyvoice.com/nba-trade-rumors-ben-simmons-trade-request-klutch-sports-rich-paul-daryl-morey-doc-rivers/

The article is titled “ Ben Simmons blames everyone but himself for shortcomings, issues with Sixers”

Even if you disagree with the article and think Simmons is the hero in all this, I don’t think anyone can expect him to recover and develop if he stays in PHI with the PHI media.

[Tomjas]

https://www.phillyvoice.com/nba-trade-rumors-ben-simmons-trade-request-klutch-sports-rich-paul-daryl-morey-doc-rivers/

The article is titled “ Ben Simmons blames everyone but himself for shortcomings, issues with Sixers”

Even if you disagree with the article and think Simmons is the hero in all this, I don’t think anyone can expect him to recover and develop if he stays in PHI with the PHI media.

It’s the Philly media

Simmons literally hasn’t said a word all off season so they’re probably pissed that he’s not talking

[KGdaBom]

https://www.phillyvoice.com/nba-trade-rumors-ben-simmons-trade-request-klutch-sports-rich-paul-daryl-morey-doc-rivers/

The article is titled “ Ben Simmons blames everyone but himself for shortcomings, issues with Sixers”

Even if you disagree with the article and think Simmons is the hero in all this, I don’t think anyone can expect him to recover and develop if he stays in PHI with the PHI media.

It’s the Philly media

Simmons literally hasn’t said a word all off season so they’re probably pissed that he’s not talking

Thanks. For a second I thought he said stuff rather than the media making it all up.

[Krapinsky]

I wonder what the Philly media would say about trading Simmons for a package headlined by Beasley and the PR spin that might require.