Ben Simmons Thread (READ FIRST POST)

[KGdaBom]

I wonder what the Philly media would say about trading Simmons for a package headlined by Beasley and the PR spin that might require.

IMO it would be an issue for about 5 minutes.

[Krapinsky]

I wonder what the Philly media would say about trading Simmons for a package headlined by Beasley and the PR spin that might require.

IMO it would be an issue for about 5 minutes.

No doubt.

Provided he stays out of trouble.

[Klomp]

Correct me if I'm wrong shrink, but I believe this can benefit the Timberwolves in terms of luxury tax payments. Because techically we wouldn't be paying him that first and second quarter of his salary (unless a deal is done before October), those payments aren't factored into our luxury tax calculations.

You know, I’m not sure! They may pro-rate it, but you could be right here. You might want to run that by the people on the CBA board. Good question!

I was wrong, they use full-season salaries for midseason acquisitions.

[shrink]

I wonder what the Philly media would say about trading Simmons for a package headlined by Beasley and the PR spin that might require.

IMO it would be an issue for about 5 minutes.

No doubt.

Provided he stays out of trouble.

Iverson got in trouble with the law several times.

[karch34]

IMO it would be an issue for about 5 minutes.

No doubt.

Provided he stays out of trouble.

Iverson got in trouble with the law several times.

Yes but they loved Iverson unconditionally due to his talent and how he played. Not a knock on Beasley but he’s not at that point with any fan base. Beasley is a great shooter, bad defender, below average facilitator, etc. Simmons is the opposite player. So if they feel that shooting makes up for it agreed they don’t care. I think it could be that Beasley, Beverly, and picks is best offer end of day but can also see why Morey isn’t jumping at it. Maybe with Dame “committing” it changes it but still think ways to go before anything happens if it does.

[King Malta]

IMO it would be an issue for about 5 minutes.

No doubt.

Provided he stays out of trouble.

Iverson got in trouble with the law several times.

Iverson, whilst being overrated IMO (but that's a conversation for another time!), was considered to be an MVP caliber player, something Beasley is not.

I've been reading through the posts concerning this subject and feel like there's merit to both perspectives. Ultimately, if a player is good enough they'll likely get chance after chance in this league, as has been demonstrated in the past. But when you're in a position of negotiation then I think it goes without saying that the club who's going to be receiving a player with a checkered past is going to utilize that in the negotiations.

Furthermore, whatever package Morey ends up with for Simmons, he's going to need to sell that to the 6ers fanbase, the Philadelphia media and the power brokers at that ballclub. If those stakeholders are already underwhelmed at the talent they're bringing back (however unreasonable that reaction may be), the fact that said talent has a checkered history only makes the sell that little bit harder. The way people react to questionable characters on their team will often come down to how they're acquired or how valuable they're perceived to be.

Having said all of that, if this trade does occur I think it's a near certainty that Beasley is included.

[Wolveswin]

Simple math is Philly isn't in the business of hoarding draft picks, they're attempting to build around Embiid and win now. We either send them substantial win-now pieces along with picks that they can trade to the 3rd team for more win-now pieces, or they don't deal with us.

And our picks don't have enough value if they send us Simmons, those picks are late lottery 1sts at best in that case, but probably in the 17-20 range. How do you plan to sell somebody the idea that even 3 1st rounders in that range are equal in value to Simmons, when all the actual players we're sending with those picks have neutral value at best with their contracts?

Beverley and Prince are not top 100 in the NBA, more in the 120-150 range, Bolmaro is not even that. Every GM including Morey knows that 1 top 40 player is better than hoarding a bunch of mediocre players and picks, because that doesn't win you NBA games, top shelf talent wins you NBA games.

So, to clarify:
3x 1st rounders in 17-20 range + Beverley + Bolmaro + Prince <<<< Simmons
McDaniels + Beasley + 2 1sts in 17-20 range ~ Simmons
DLo + 17-20 range 1st rounder ~ Simmons

And Simmons is probably better than any of those deals, but a malcontent Simmons is I suppose around equal.

Please, stop wasting space in this thread by proposing these delusional ideas, this is not 2k, you're just getting in the way of a realistic conversation that everybody would like to have in here.

Philly is in the business of hoarding draft picks if the win now player they desire isn’t part of the best offer from the team wanting Simmons the most. Hint: that win-now player isn’t Beasley.

Morey is smart enough to know, that when Beal or Dame become available — or some other vet he covets — the better non negative filler (ideally expiring) he has and more 1sts (owed from Wolves is sexy) gets him his desired vet (who is NOT on the table now)! It is not happening in one trade, because that vet isn’t available now.

Again for your reading comprehension, if Morey doesn’t value Beasley either due to his background or doesn’t value him as asset to acquire future desired vet, Wolves don’t include him — instead they add 1sts.

Quit acting like Beasley is some widely valuable piece for Morey. We aren’t even sure he values him at all. Will Beasley be in the deal? Maybe. Maybe even most likely. But to dismiss the fact Morey might not value Beasley and/or value draft picks more is just pure being naive.

There is a chance that Morey values Beasley because of what he’s shown in the last 2 seasons for the Wolves, despite his crime, and there is no chance Morey values a late 1st rounder as a replacement for Beasley, because Beasley is worth much more than a late 1st rounder, it’s that simple. Philly is considering only DLo, Beasley and McDaniels, picks and other players are just supplemental, and no, those picks won’t be enough to land a Beal or a Lillard at any point in time, Philly won’t find a trade of that sort later on.

Philly leaves the table if DLo or Beasley are not offered to them, deal with it, they’re not taking that trash offer you’re proposing, these people aren’t idiots.

You’re being unrealistic, and there’s no reason for that, we’re not the Wolves FO trying to start the negotiation by low-balling the 6erss, we’re just observing the realities of the situation as fans.

You need to go back and re-read my posts. You aren’t even sure what you are trying to argue anymore.

You are speculating with your Morey views and it doesn’t provide any value to the discussion.

[FinnTheHuman]

Philly is in the business of hoarding draft picks if the win now player they desire isn’t part of the best offer from the team wanting Simmons the most. Hint: that win-now player isn’t Beasley.

Morey is smart enough to know, that when Beal or Dame become available — or some other vet he covets — the better non negative filler (ideally expiring) he has and more 1sts (owed from Wolves is sexy) gets him his desired vet (who is NOT on the table now)! It is not happening in one trade, because that vet isn’t available now.

Again for your reading comprehension, if Morey doesn’t value Beasley either due to his background or doesn’t value him as asset to acquire future desired vet, Wolves don’t include him — instead they add 1sts.

Quit acting like Beasley is some widely valuable piece for Morey. We aren’t even sure he values him at all. Will Beasley be in the deal? Maybe. Maybe even most likely. But to dismiss the fact Morey might not value Beasley and/or value draft picks more is just pure being naive.

There is a chance that Morey values Beasley because of what he’s shown in the last 2 seasons for the Wolves, despite his crime, and there is no chance Morey values a late 1st rounder as a replacement for Beasley, because Beasley is worth much more than a late 1st rounder, it’s that simple. Philly is considering only DLo, Beasley and McDaniels, picks and other players are just supplemental, and no, those picks won’t be enough to land a Beal or a Lillard at any point in time, Philly won’t find a trade of that sort later on.

Philly leaves the table if DLo or Beasley are not offered to them, deal with it, they’re not taking that trash offer you’re proposing, these people aren’t idiots.

You’re being unrealistic, and there’s no reason for that, we’re not the Wolves FO trying to start the negotiation by low-balling the 6erss, we’re just observing the realities of the situation as fans.

You need to go back and re-read my posts. You aren’t even sure what you are trying to argue anymore.

You are speculating with your Morey views and it doesn’t provide any value to the discussion.

Nah, my posts are all fine, your awful trade suggestion and its baseless justification provide no value to the discussion.

[Klomp]

The disconnect is that you guys think the GM needs to market the incoming players as being just as good as the outgoing.

Obviously Beasley isn't Iverson. But neither is Simmons. It'll be a tough spin, but that still has to be at the forefront. It's about adding pieces that fit around your star player. Simmons doesn't fit with Embiid as a guard. A 24-year old 20 ppg scorer and 40% 3-point shooter does. Other pieces involved are going to be about future flexibility to again fit pieces around your star player. And again, Simmons isn't a superstar at his peak. He's at this point disgruntled, and we can debate about the rest of the characteristics.

Some of the fan base may be impatient about that, but those are the facts. The Sixers aren't just a tiny step away like they were in 2018-19 (one shot away from beating the eventual champs). They've taken a step back since then. I know the regular season success, but this is about the playoffs. They don't need to tear things all the way down, but there will be some rebuilding required. A young talent, flexibility and picks will go a long way.

[Wolveswin]

There is a chance that Morey values Beasley because of what he’s shown in the last 2 seasons for the Wolves, despite his crime, and there is no chance Morey values a late 1st rounder as a replacement for Beasley, because Beasley is worth much more than a late 1st rounder, it’s that simple. Philly is considering only DLo, Beasley and McDaniels, picks and other players are just supplemental, and no, those picks won’t be enough to land a Beal or a Lillard at any point in time, Philly won’t find a trade of that sort later on.

Philly leaves the table if DLo or Beasley are not offered to them, deal with it, they’re not taking that trash offer you’re proposing, these people aren’t idiots.

You’re being unrealistic, and there’s no reason for that, we’re not the Wolves FO trying to start the negotiation by low-balling the 6erss, we’re just observing the realities of the situation as fans.

You need to go back and re-read my posts. You aren’t even sure what you are trying to argue anymore.

You are speculating with your Morey views and it doesn’t provide any value to the discussion.

Nah, my posts are all fine, your awful trade suggestion and its baseless justification provide no value to the discussion.

I am glad you value Beasley sooo much higher than an additional future 1st or what ever needed to make up his value if Morey doesn’t agree with you. And I hope you are Morey since you speak on his behalf.

Unlike you, I see a world were Morey doesn’t value Beasley (or McDaniels) as much as a Wolves fan. Simple math…Wolves don’t have the win-now player he covets. Beasley may or may not be a path to said player.

[Wolveswin]

The disconnect is that you guys think the GM needs to market the incoming players as being just as good as the outgoing.

Obviously Beasley isn't Iverson. But neither is Simmons. It'll be a tough spin, but that still has to be at the forefront. It's about adding pieces that fit around your star player. Simmons doesn't fit with Embiid as a guard. A 24-year old 20 ppg scorer and 40% 3-point shooter does. Other pieces involved are going to be about future flexibility to again fit pieces around your star player. And again, Simmons isn't a superstar at his peak. He's at this point disgruntled, and we can debate about the rest of the characteristics.

Some of the fan base may be impatient about that, but those are the facts. The Sixers aren't just a tiny step away like they were in 2018-19 (one shot away from beating the eventual champs). They've taken a step back since then. I know the regular season success, but this is about the playoffs. They don't need to tear things all the way down, but there will be some rebuilding required. A young talent, flexibility and picks will go a long way.

I think the point is, Morey may be all-in on getting a win-now player. Just not now within a Simmons trade, because his desired player isn’t on the market now.

He may value more than Beasley, assets that are even more moveable in future consolidation trade — they would be more picks and not players that outside of MN come with some level of baggage (from very little to much — eye of the beholder).

Beasley might be “nice” to Morey, and we hope he thinks that. But having a nice player when he has eyes on a different prize may not move the needle in a Simmons trade.

[Klomp]

Beasley might be “nice” to Morey, and we hope he thinks that. But having a nice player when he has eyes on a different prize may not move the needle in a Simmons trade.

There doesn't seem to be any needle-movers being offered.

[jpatrick]

Beasley might be “nice” to Morey, and we hope he thinks that. But having a nice player when he has eyes on a different prize may not move the needle in a Simmons trade.

There doesn't seem to be any needle-movers being offered.

I sense the opinion shifting amongst Philly fans and podcasters. They know they are not getting a star (Dame/Beal). And instead of getting a couple solid players in their late 20s (like a Brogdon/Turner or Murray/White), which would help but not get them a championship. They would prefer a couple younger players (like Beasley/McDaniels) and draft picks. They know their only chance at championship is flipping those draft assets for a star in the future, which they can’t do in a Brogdon/Turner package for example.

[moonpie]

Read on Twitter

Shortly after that ugly Game 7 loss, and following a discussion between management and Simmons' representation, both sides agreed to look for a trade as the draft and free agency approached. Over the ensuing weeks, the Sixers had talks with numerous teams, sources said, and several made what they believed were legitimate offers.

It became clear the Sixers' asking price for Simmons was steep; Philly was looking for a premium return whether it was a star player, multiple first-round picks or both.

After the transaction season ended in mid-August, owner Joshua Harris and 76ers management flew to Los Angeles to meet with Simmons and agent Rich Paul. The Sixers intended to tell Simmons they couldn't find a deal for him and hoped to put aside differences and enter the season on the same page, sources said.

Simmons, however, was steadfast, telling Harris he didn't want to play for the team again and that if he wasn't traded by the end of the month he didn't intend to come to training camp, sources said.

The point was made that it wasn't Simmons' responsibility to increase his trade value, and that the Sixers should find the best possible trade and execute it now, rather than wait for a strong start to the season to increase his value.

[Wolveswin]

Beasley might be “nice” to Morey, and we hope he thinks that. But having a nice player when he has eyes on a different prize may not move the needle in a Simmons trade.

There doesn't seem to be any needle-movers being offered.

That is the truth. So to my point, does Morey want stopgap win-now level players (McCollum, Beasley, Buddy or Barnes, to name a few) who might be harder to move later and could be less attractive to team holding the REAL win-now player Morey wants. Does more picks, expiring contracts (that are builder to matching money as needed), and other assets more attractive??? Who knows.

[TaylorTag]

If one of Taurean Prince or Beverley is involved in our package (which in all likelihood one has to be involved for salary purposes--unless there is a Russell package) then I would think Morey's best bet is to just agree to the trade now (kind of like how Memphis and Boston just did in the Juancho trade involving Kris Dunn who can't be moved until Sept. 15) and in this instance wait to see if he can get any better offers between now and when we are able to trade Beverley, for example, who can be moved come Oct. 1.

I am pretty sure there is nothing in the rule books that bind teams to an announced trade agreement in this situation, as they technichally cannot solidify trade by league rules. Announcing an agreed trade would set the market for Simmons and would set the clock for other teams around the league to put up a real offer before the trade becomes official on Oct. 1...

Again, I don't think there is anything in the rule book that would forbid Morey from abandoning a previously agreed to trade, so why not just put this all out in the open, and force a team like Sacramento to listen to the NBA talking heads for two weeks asking why the Kings weren't willing to beat the Wolves' pedestrian package.

[Krapinsky]

Beasley might be “nice” to Morey, and we hope he thinks that. But having a nice player when he has eyes on a different prize may not move the needle in a Simmons trade.

There doesn't seem to be any needle-movers being offered.

I like Beasley as a 6th man, but players like McCollum and Brogdon are head and shoulders above him IMO.

[shrink]

I think after Simmons told the owner directly that he wanted to be traded (Brian Windhorst says this is a much bigger deal than having your agent do it), I think the pressure increases on PHI to get a deal done sooner rather than later. Morey may be okay going into training camp with Simmons a major issue, but I question if Embiid and the players are going to be happy with every question being about Ben. Embiid especially may want to avoid these questions, since his comments about Ben after the playoff game may have exacerbated this situation. The 2021-22 Sixers have a chance to win a title, but that will only happen if that’s where the team’s focus lies - not on a guy that doesn’t even want to be on the team.

I think earlier, when Morey was unmotivated to trade Simmons, a Wolves offer based on picks had little appeal. He may have said, “Gersson, if you can find us a star with those picks in a three team or four team trade, let me know. In the meantime, we’ll wait.” Now, I think it has become harder for the Sixers to wait. Perhaps to resolve the situation soon, Morey would be more willing to take the picks, and try to find that star player himself later, when one becomes available.

[Wolveswin]

Beasley might be “nice” to Morey, and we hope he thinks that. But having a nice player when he has eyes on a different prize may not move the needle in a Simmons trade.

There doesn't seem to be any needle-movers being offered.

I like Beasley as a 6th man, but players like McCollum and Brogdon are head and shoulders above him IMO.

Exactly. And to double down on that, Morey might find the whole bunch meh! Meaning, he see them as nice but potential speed bumps on the path to who he really wants.

Beverley + Prince + McDaniels and/or Bolmaro + 3x 1sts (and some swaps) might be the most attractive deal to Morey. Why? Because that is the best package to consolidate to another team when a Morey desired win-now vet does become available. McCollum or Beasley or Brogdon could be more difficult (3rd team needed for picks/youth) to pull that trigger. He might value getting what is best for a subsequent trade — using Simmons to accomplish now.

No doubt popular opinion is he would want Beasley (or Brogdon or McCollum or Buddy), maybe that is why a deal isn’t done. He really doesn’t. He wants a pick and youth laced deal so his war chest is stocked and ready to go (for Dame or Beal or ?).

Note: Beverley and Prince are not dead weight vets for 76ers/Embiid. No doubt not the talent level of some of the names rumored in other Simmons scenarios. But maybe enough stopgap for Morey (seemingly offset by adequate picks and youth to compensate).

[jpatrick]

I think after Simmons told the owner directly that he wanted to be traded (Brian Windhorst says this is a much bigger deal than having your agent do it), I think the pressure increases on PHI to get a deal done sooner rather than later. Morey may be okay going into training camp with Simmons a major issue, but I question if Embiid and the players are going to be happy with every question being about Ben. Embiid especially may want to avoid these questions, since his comments about Ben after the playoff game may have exacerbated this situation. The 2021-22 Sixers have a chance to win a title, but that will only happen if that’s where the team’s focus lies - not on a guy that doesn’t even want to be on the team.

I think earlier, when Morey was unmotivated to trade Simmons, a Wolves offer based on picks had little appeal. He may have said, “Gersson, if you can find us a star with those picks in a three team or four team trade, let me know. In the meantime, we’ll wait.” Now, I think it has become harder for the Sixers to wait. Perhaps to resolve the situation soon, Morey would be more willing to take the picks, and try to find that star player himself later, when one becomes available.

I think this is true. I also think Morey believed Simmons would come to camp; play well during the first half; improve his value, as memories of the playoffs get replaced by his good first half play; and then be dealt at the deadline for a star-like package. If he just sits, it is not only a distraction to the team but it doesn’t increase his value. May even decrease it.