Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[winforlose]

I get what your saying and I do see the merit, but I think you are misunderstanding why we lost the games we did and why we are doomed without adding more size. Offensively opposing teams have learned that when KAT switches on the perimeter and doesn’t switch back, the big rolls to the basket which collapses our defense. If the double is slow the big scores easily in the paint (sometimes even when the double isn’t slow,) if the double is timely then the kick out leads to open corner 3s or another swing for an open 3 from any sweet spot their shooters want. With another big who can guard the paint a modified zone works much better (or current zone has some issues but is also sometimes effective.) Also, with another big dunkers spot traps like Harrell pulled on us don’t work as well either. A mobile big can still run the switching scheme but can also defend the paint when KAT is on the perimeter.

On Defense against the Wolves the usual method is send a PF to guard Towns, have the C guard the lane, and leave V8 alone except in the paint or low box. With another big the opposing C cannot simply guard V8 because then a SF must guard our other big. The new big opens the lane for Ant and Dlo while also making it harder to double KAT and gives V8 a mismatch when he catches in the post or the paint.

I see the point of adding someone like Turner, but I don't see how putting Towns and V8 at PF/SF would solve our offensive issues. We are one of the worst NBA teams in half court offence, slightly better than DET and HOU. While on paper Turner is a stretch 5, it does not mean that he will be able to impact our offence enough to provide that space, because usually bigs have slower release, slower footwork, which means that they are slower in catch and shoot situation. We are spoiled because Towns is able to shoot like a guard: catch and shoot, stepback 3s, running off screens, but he is an exception not a rule. So many times even if a big can shoot a three, the opponent defense just dare him to shoot. The whole point of size in current NBA is transforming, because it is equally important to be able to defend in space, on perimeter, in transition etc. Watch this video:

Watch on YouTube

Based on your logic GSW should have put Wiseman (or another 7footer) at C, Green at PF. However, they are able to implement elite defense without true bigs. Ironically, they use a guy such as 6'3 Payton II instead of 7'1 Wiseman to compliment their defensive core. Is not it genius? That's what I call a basketball solution.

Lastly, I am not against Turner, but we have limited resources to improve our roster. If Turner is available for one FRP and expiring, I would do it. But if you ask me, I think the main problem of our current roster is versatility and depth, both in defense and offence. We rely hard on Vando and MCD to be that low man, but I would add third big wing, who can rotate and help in defence, while providing some scoring in offence.

GSW managed to function without star bigs because they have some of the best shooters in the entire league, we do not. Our season is almost 30% complete and the same two problems are evident in literally every game.

1. Opposing bigs dominate inside. Grabbing extra boards, scoring in the paint, kicking out to open 3 point shooters. Rudy Gobert isn’t available (my god I wish we could clone him,) and very few other centers have the same impact. But, a big body that can meet the roller, box out the opposing big and mitigate the need for the double (our defense collapsing inward,) would lead to fewer open 3s, fewer second chance points, and in theory let’s us run out on opponents when we get the rebounds.

2. Our scoring is an issue because opposing centers guard the paint, not V8. But, as I have said multiple times, this is less problematic if V8 is not being guarded by a center. How do you force the opposing center to not guard V8? The simplest answer is to give them someone else to guard. Someone who is enough of threat from distance that they must be guarded but also good enough off the dribble to at least back down the defender. I actually want Christian Wood over Myles Turner because Wood is better off the dribble. Either way, getting the opposing big out of the lane is crucial to our success. Put even more simply, if we cannot shoot high percentage 3s we need to increase our volume of high percentage 2s (shots in the paint.) This is much easier with another big, even if it costs us some speed.

[winforlose]

I get what your saying and I do see the merit, but I think you are misunderstanding why we lost the games we did and why we are doomed without adding more size. Offensively opposing teams have learned that when KAT switches on the perimeter and doesn’t switch back, the big rolls to the basket which collapses our defense. If the double is slow the big scores easily in the paint (sometimes even when the double isn’t slow,) if the double is timely then the kick out leads to open corner 3s or another swing for an open 3 from any sweet spot their shooters want. With another big who can guard the paint a modified zone works much better (or current zone has some issues but is also sometimes effective.) Also, with another big dunkers spot traps like Harrell pulled on us don’t work as well either. A mobile big can still run the switching scheme but can also defend the paint when KAT is on the perimeter.

On Defense against the Wolves the usual method is send a PF to guard Towns, have the C guard the lane, and leave V8 alone except in the paint or low box. With another big the opposing C cannot simply guard V8 because then a SF must guard our other big. The new big opens the lane for Ant and Dlo while also making it harder to double KAT and gives V8 a mismatch when he catches in the post or the paint.

I see the point of adding someone like Turner, but I don't see how putting Towns and V8 at PF/SF would solve our offensive issues. We are one of the worst NBA teams in half court offence, slightly better than DET and HOU. While on paper Turner is a stretch 5, it does not mean that he will be able to impact our offence enough to provide that space, because usually bigs have slower release, slower footwork, which means that they are slower in catch and shoot situation. We are spoiled because Towns is able to shoot like a guard: catch and shoot, stepback 3s, running off screens, but he is an exception not a rule. So many times even if a big can shoot a three, the opponent defense just dare him to shoot. The whole point of size in current NBA is transforming, because it is equally important to be able to defend in space, on perimeter, in transition etc. Watch this video:

Watch on YouTube

Based on your logic GSW should have put Wiseman (or another 7footer) at C, Green at PF. However, they are able to implement elite defense without true bigs. Ironically, they use a guy such as 6'3 Payton II instead of 7'1 Wiseman to compliment their defensive core. Is not it genius? That's what I call a basketball solution.

Lastly, I am not against Turner, but we have limited resources to improve our roster. If Turner is available for one FRP and expiring, I would do it. But if you ask me, I think the main problem of our current roster is versatility and depth, both in defense and offence. We rely hard on Vando and MCD to be that low man, but I would add third big wing, who can rotate and help in defence, while providing some scoring in offence.

I lean a little more minimus direction here.....while I definitely want to add size to the roster. I feel our say SL execution problems are more about just better decision making....KAT has started playing smarter & simpler the last 3....V8 being put in smarter spots besides just dunkers spot. I think with more time, it will fix itself. Besides even by moving V8 to the 3, if the current offensive problems continue...adding a big wouldn't change anything....the 5 would still guard V8 & they just guard KAT with the 3 (he's already been guarded by Brogden).

So I feel that issue is more X's & O's related....that said still need a 3rd reliable big as JMAC needs to be a 3 & Naz is more of a 4th big type.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

If opposing teams want to guard KAT with a SF then he can either go quickly before the double has a chance to impede him, or he can shoot over the small player. The idea of putting someone 6-7 to 6-9 on KAT without the weight to slow him down means a feast of paint points. If the big won’t leave the lane then KAT can and should unload from distance and the combination of V8, the new big, and Ant can offensive rebound the other team into oblivion.

Nowell is probably going to get Beasley’s minutes and even if scores less he will shoot less which gives more shots to better shooters. We have 5 guys who we can move (Beasley, Prince, Layman, JMAC, and JO) without serious disruption to our offense and minor disruption (mostly JO) to our defense.

[old school 34]

I see the point of adding someone like Turner, but I don't see how putting Towns and V8 at PF/SF would solve our offensive issues. We are one of the worst NBA teams in half court offence, slightly better than DET and HOU. While on paper Turner is a stretch 5, it does not mean that he will be able to impact our offence enough to provide that space, because usually bigs have slower release, slower footwork, which means that they are slower in catch and shoot situation. We are spoiled because Towns is able to shoot like a guard: catch and shoot, stepback 3s, running off screens, but he is an exception not a rule. So many times even if a big can shoot a three, the opponent defense just dare him to shoot. The whole point of size in current NBA is transforming, because it is equally important to be able to defend in space, on perimeter, in transition etc. Watch this video:

Watch on YouTube

Based on your logic GSW should have put Wiseman (or another 7footer) at C, Green at PF. However, they are able to implement elite defense without true bigs. Ironically, they use a guy such as 6'3 Payton II instead of 7'1 Wiseman to compliment their defensive core. Is not it genius? That's what I call a basketball solution.

Lastly, I am not against Turner, but we have limited resources to improve our roster. If Turner is available for one FRP and expiring, I would do it. But if you ask me, I think the main problem of our current roster is versatility and depth, both in defense and offence. We rely hard on Vando and MCD to be that low man, but I would add third big wing, who can rotate and help in defence, while providing some scoring in offence.

I lean a little more minimus direction here.....while I definitely want to add size to the roster. I feel our say SL execution problems are more about just better decision making....KAT has started playing smarter & simpler the last 3....V8 being put in smarter spots besides just dunkers spot. I think with more time, it will fix itself. Besides even by moving V8 to the 3, if the current offensive problems continue...adding a big wouldn't change anything....the 5 would still guard V8 & they just guard KAT with the 3 (he's already been guarded by Brogden).

So I feel that issue is more X's & O's related....that said still need a 3rd reliable big as JMAC needs to be a 3 & Naz is more of a 4th big type.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

If opposing teams want to guard KAT with a SF then he can either go quickly before the double has a chance to impede him, or he can shoot over the small player. The idea of putting someone 6-7 to 6-9 on KAT without the weight to slow him down means a feast of paint points. If the big won’t leave the lane then KAT can and should unload from distance and the combination of V8, the new big, and Ant can offensive rebound the other team into oblivion.

Nowell is probably going to get Beasley’s minutes and even if scores less he will shoot less which gives more shots to better shooters. We have 5 guys who we can move (Beasley, Prince, Layman, JMAC, and JO) without serious disruption to our offense and minor disruption (mostly JO) to our defense.

I agree with your logic of what KAT should do when being guarded by theoretical 3...as you say, but isn't that the same size of the majority of the 4s that have already been guarding him?

The only thing that changes is we're 1 guy bigger to crash the offensive glass...no? Whereas, the bigger issue for me when KAT gets guarded by 4s or 3s....is the TO rate with his decision making & KAT needs to just be able to make a better play out of those actions....so whether it's a stretch 5 or just another better shooting wing...it can work with V8 whether he's the 4 or the 3 as long as KAT executes better...either beating the double, better pass &/or timing of the pass...it works the same, no matter the size of the 3rd shooter imo?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[winforlose]

I lean a little more minimus direction here.....while I definitely want to add size to the roster. I feel our say SL execution problems are more about just better decision making....KAT has started playing smarter & simpler the last 3....V8 being put in smarter spots besides just dunkers spot. I think with more time, it will fix itself. Besides even by moving V8 to the 3, if the current offensive problems continue...adding a big wouldn't change anything....the 5 would still guard V8 & they just guard KAT with the 3 (he's already been guarded by Brogden).

So I feel that issue is more X's & O's related....that said still need a 3rd reliable big as JMAC needs to be a 3 & Naz is more of a 4th big type.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

If opposing teams want to guard KAT with a SF then he can either go quickly before the double has a chance to impede him, or he can shoot over the small player. The idea of putting someone 6-7 to 6-9 on KAT without the weight to slow him down means a feast of paint points. If the big won’t leave the lane then KAT can and should unload from distance and the combination of V8, the new big, and Ant can offensive rebound the other team into oblivion.

Nowell is probably going to get Beasley’s minutes and even if scores less he will shoot less which gives more shots to better shooters. We have 5 guys who we can move (Beasley, Prince, Layman, JMAC, and JO) without serious disruption to our offense and minor disruption (mostly JO) to our defense.

I agree with your logic of what KAT should do when being guarded by theoretical 3...as you say, but isn't that the same size of the majority of the 4s that have already been guarding him?

The only thing that changes is we're 1 guy bigger to crash the offensive glass...no? Whereas, the bigger issue for me when KAT gets guarded by 4s or 3s....is the TO rate with his decision making & KAT needs to just be able to make a better play out of those actions....so whether it's a stretch 5 or just another better shooting wing...it can work with V8 whether he's the 4 or the 3 as long as KAT executes better...either beating the double, better pass &/or timing of the pass...it works the same, no matter the size of the 3rd shooter imo?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

We are bigger to crash the glass on both ends. We are better at defending the paint as V8 is not heavy enough or strong enough to keep opposing bigs from feasting in the paint. The extra beef also makes for better screens as bigger guys are harder to get around, and having another legit big forces more interior doubles which means more kick out opportunities not only for Dlo and Ant but for KAT as well. You want KAT shooting more 3s, force opposing teams to double someone other than KAT and then either kick out to KAT or swing it to him. Other teams use their size to collapse our D, we can do the same to them.

Finally, and this cannot be overstated, we are not a playoff team without KAT. Ant cannot lead us anywhere yet and Dlo is to inconsistent. Without another legit big (and a talented offensive one at that,) we are one twisted ankle, or sprained knee, or hurt wrist from falling off a cliff. With a Christian Wood, or Myles Turner, or AD, or JV, or really any legit 20/10 guy we have a good chance of making the playoffs even with KAT out for a while. Nowell is proving a good replacement for Beasley. I would be fine moving Beasley, Prince, Leo, JO, Layman, or even MCD in a pinch along with some draft capital to take the next step and swing for the fences. Imagine how good we would be with Wood or Turner next to KAT and Dlo and Ant.

[TaylorTag]

I am definitely open to trading Beasely, but not sure I would want to pull the trigger until the offseason.

Ant seems to be very close to Beasely and I am just not sure we can afford disrupting the locker room right that. Plus, Beasely isn't play well anyways so maybe any discussion of trading him is moot.

But I think the ideal scenario is Beasely finding his 3-point shot to end the season, and then we move him in the offseason for an asset, giving space for Nowell to become our 6th man (and we would use our luxury cap space to give Nowell a new contract).

I'm just having a tough time figuring out what the Wolves will do with all their luxury cap space. I think the first position we would look to fix is PF/C, but what's tough is that with Vando proving he needs minutes, despite his imperfect fit, I just am not sure why the Wolves should commit a ton of money to a big that will rarely see the floor.

If Myles Turner is upset about how he is being used now, why would he want to play back up minutes to Vando and KAT?

When you have the best starting 5 in history, no hyperbole, and you have back up guys like McDaniels, Nowell and Naz Reid behind them, it's hard to figure out what our need is exactly.

[Krapinsky]

I'll be curious to see what a rental of Thad goes for. Not sure if Phoenix will want to outbid a Prince plus 2nd rounder from us.

[winforlose]

I am definitely open to trading Beasely, but not sure I would want to pull the trigger until the offseason.

Ant seems to be very close to Beasely and I am just not sure we can afford disrupting the locker room right that. Plus, Beasely isn't play well anyways so maybe any discussion of trading him is moot.

But I think the ideal scenario is Beasely finding his 3-point shot to end the season, and then we move him in the offseason for an asset, giving space for Nowell to become our 6th man (and we would use our luxury cap space to give Nowell a new contract).

I'm just having a tough time figuring out what the Wolves will do with all their luxury cap space. I think the first position we would look to fix is PF/C, but what's tough is that with Vando proving he needs minutes, despite his imperfect fit, I just am not sure why the Wolves should commit a ton of money to a big that will rarely see the floor.

If Myles Turner is upset about how he is being used now, why would he want to play back up minutes to Vando and KAT?

When you have the best starting 5 in history, no hyperbole, and you have back up guys like McDaniels, Nowell and Naz Reid behind them, it's hard to figure out what our need is exactly.

That best starting five hasn’t played a lot against the best teams in the league. It may be good for a middle of the pack, but don’t assume it is a championship starting lineup. V8 is not a PF. I don’t know why you guys think he is, but he just isn’t. He plays PF in a pinch, but he cannot rim protector against the rolling big. In the playoffs we will get feasted on. The defense already needs to collapse on the paint to contain the big which leaves open corner 3 point shooters. Have any of you noticed when we win they miss their open 3s and when we lose they don’t. Dallas missed a ton in the fourth (wide open.) This is not sustainable. V8 is the perfect SF. Bigger than most of his defenders. Fast enough to guard 1-5 and long enough to cause havoc 1-3. Getting Dlo to the bench to lead the 2nd unit, or Bev on the bench and comes in after 5 minutes for Dlo is the right move. Either way, V8 at SF, KAT at PF and another big is the ideal solution to our defensive woes.

[Krapinsky]

I am definitely open to trading Beasely, but not sure I would want to pull the trigger until the offseason.

Ant seems to be very close to Beasely and I am just not sure we can afford disrupting the locker room right that. Plus, Beasely isn't play well anyways so maybe any discussion of trading him is moot.

But I think the ideal scenario is Beasely finding his 3-point shot to end the season, and then we move him in the offseason for an asset, giving space for Nowell to become our 6th man (and we would use our luxury cap space to give Nowell a new contract).

I'm just having a tough time figuring out what the Wolves will do with all their luxury cap space. I think the first position we would look to fix is PF/C, but what's tough is that with Vando proving he needs minutes, despite his imperfect fit, I just am not sure why the Wolves should commit a ton of money to a big that will rarely see the floor.

If Myles Turner is upset about how he is being used now, why would he want to play back up minutes to Vando and KAT?

When you have the best starting 5 in history, no hyperbole, and you have back up guys like McDaniels, Nowell and Naz Reid behind them, it's hard to figure out what our need is exactly.

That best starting five hasn’t played a lot against the best teams in the league. It may be good for a middle of the pack, but don’t assume it is a championship starting lineup. V8 is not a PF. I don’t know why you guys think he is, but he just isn’t. He plays PF in a pinch, but he cannot rim protector against the rolling big. In the playoffs we will get feasted on. The defense already needs to collapse on the paint to contain the big which leaves open corner 3 point shooters. Have any of you noticed when we win they miss their open 3s and when we lose they don’t. Dallas missed a ton in the fourth (wide open.) This is not sustainable. V8 is the perfect SF. Bigger than most of his defenders. Fast enough to guard 1-5 and long enough to cause havoc 1-3. Getting Dlo to the bench to lead the 2nd unit, or Bev on the bench and comes in after 5 minutes for Dlo is the right move. Either way, V8 at SF, KAT at PF and another big is the ideal solution to our defensive woes.

This seems like an odd take to me. V8 might be perfectly capable of guarding SFs but putting Kat, another center, and V8 out there all together on offense is a recipe for disaster.

What's McDaniels in your opinion? A SG?

[younggunsmn]

I still think prince and a 2nd for Derrick Favors would be a great move and allow KAT to take a bit less wear and tear vs the Jokic, Embiid, Jonas types. I think Vanderbilt fits defensively next to KAT better than most of the other options out there, but we need a traditional big for certain matchups/injury insurance, especially if we are looking to make noise in the playoffs. Because the D and rebounding drop of precipitously when Naz replaces KAT. Which you can manage for short spurts against 2nd units, but is an absolute killer with injuries/foul trouble.

I would give Beasley until the trade deadline to get his shot right. His floor game and team play have been better this year. He is taking more off balance shots and fewer squared up shots, so it might simply be a matter of slowing down and working on his footwork a bit.

[shangrila]

I am definitely open to trading Beasely, but not sure I would want to pull the trigger until the offseason.

Ant seems to be very close to Beasely and I am just not sure we can afford disrupting the locker room right that. Plus, Beasely isn't play well anyways so maybe any discussion of trading him is moot.

But I think the ideal scenario is Beasely finding his 3-point shot to end the season, and then we move him in the offseason for an asset, giving space for Nowell to become our 6th man (and we would use our luxury cap space to give Nowell a new contract).

I'm just having a tough time figuring out what the Wolves will do with all their luxury cap space. I think the first position we would look to fix is PF/C, but what's tough is that with Vando proving he needs minutes, despite his imperfect fit, I just am not sure why the Wolves should commit a ton of money to a big that will rarely see the floor.

If Myles Turner is upset about how he is being used now, why would he want to play back up minutes to Vando and KAT?

When you have the best starting 5 in history, no hyperbole, and you have back up guys like McDaniels, Nowell and Naz Reid behind them, it's hard to figure out what our need is exactly.

That best starting five hasn’t played a lot against the best teams in the league. It may be good for a middle of the pack, but don’t assume it is a championship starting lineup. V8 is not a PF. I don’t know why you guys think he is, but he just isn’t. He plays PF in a pinch, but he cannot rim protector against the rolling big. In the playoffs we will get feasted on. The defense already needs to collapse on the paint to contain the big which leaves open corner 3 point shooters. Have any of you noticed when we win they miss their open 3s and when we lose they don’t. Dallas missed a ton in the fourth (wide open.) This is not sustainable. V8 is the perfect SF. Bigger than most of his defenders. Fast enough to guard 1-5 and long enough to cause havoc 1-3. Getting Dlo to the bench to lead the 2nd unit, or Bev on the bench and comes in after 5 minutes for Dlo is the right move. Either way, V8 at SF, KAT at PF and another big is the ideal solution to our defensive woes.

This seems like an odd take to me. V8 might be perfectly capable of guarding SFs but putting Kat, another center, and V8 out there all together on offense is a recipe for disaster.

What's McDaniels in your opinion? A SG?

“Odd” is putting it nicely.

Vanderbilt has been a PF his entire career, even before he went pro, through multiple different organisations and coaches.

But they’re all wrong, apparently.

[Nick K]

If opposing teams want to guard KAT with a SF then he can either go quickly before the double has a chance to impede him, or he can shoot over the small player. The idea of putting someone 6-7 to 6-9 on KAT without the weight to slow him down means a feast of paint points. If the big won’t leave the lane then KAT can and should unload from distance and the combination of V8, the new big, and Ant can offensive rebound the other team into oblivion.

Nowell is probably going to get Beasley’s minutes and even if scores less he will shoot less which gives more shots to better shooters. We have 5 guys who we can move (Beasley, Prince, Layman, JMAC, and JO) without serious disruption to our offense and minor disruption (mostly JO) to our defense.

I agree with your logic of what KAT should do when being guarded by theoretical 3...as you say, but isn't that the same size of the majority of the 4s that have already been guarding him?

The only thing that changes is we're 1 guy bigger to crash the offensive glass...no? Whereas, the bigger issue for me when KAT gets guarded by 4s or 3s....is the TO rate with his decision making & KAT needs to just be able to make a better play out of those actions....so whether it's a stretch 5 or just another better shooting wing...it can work with V8 whether he's the 4 or the 3 as long as KAT executes better...either beating the double, better pass &/or timing of the pass...it works the same, no matter the size of the 3rd shooter imo?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

We are bigger to crash the glass on both ends. We are better at defending the paint as V8 is not heavy enough or strong enough to keep opposing bigs from feasting in the paint. The extra beef also makes for better screens as bigger guys are harder to get around, and having another legit big forces more interior doubles which means more kick out opportunities not only for Dlo and Ant but for KAT as well. You want KAT shooting more 3s, force opposing teams to double someone other than KAT and then either kick out to KAT or swing it to him. Other teams use their size to collapse our D, we can do the same to them.

Finally, and this cannot be overstated, we are not a playoff team without KAT. Ant cannot lead us anywhere yet and Dlo is to inconsistent. Without another legit big (and a talented offensive one at that,) we are one twisted ankle, or sprained knee, or hurt wrist from falling off a cliff. With a Christian Wood, or Myles Turner, or AD, or JV, or really any legit 20/10 guy we have a good chance of making the playoffs even with KAT out for a while. Nowell is proving a good replacement for Beasley. I would be fine moving Beasley, Prince, Leo, JO, Layman, or even MCD in a pinch along with some draft capital to take the next step and swing for the fences. Imagine how good we would be with Wood or Turner next to KAT and Dlo and Ant.

I'd love to have Sabonis next to KAT but they might want too much to acquire him. Turner would be great too.

It's too bad Reid doesn't play bigger.

[winforlose]

That best starting five hasn’t played a lot against the best teams in the league. It may be good for a middle of the pack, but don’t assume it is a championship starting lineup. V8 is not a PF. I don’t know why you guys think he is, but he just isn’t. He plays PF in a pinch, but he cannot rim protector against the rolling big. In the playoffs we will get feasted on. The defense already needs to collapse on the paint to contain the big which leaves open corner 3 point shooters. Have any of you noticed when we win they miss their open 3s and when we lose they don’t. Dallas missed a ton in the fourth (wide open.) This is not sustainable. V8 is the perfect SF. Bigger than most of his defenders. Fast enough to guard 1-5 and long enough to cause havoc 1-3. Getting Dlo to the bench to lead the 2nd unit, or Bev on the bench and comes in after 5 minutes for Dlo is the right move. Either way, V8 at SF, KAT at PF and another big is the ideal solution to our defensive woes.

This seems like an odd take to me. V8 might be perfectly capable of guarding SFs but putting Kat, another center, and V8 out there all together on offense is a recipe for disaster.

What's McDaniels in your opinion? A SG?

“Odd” is putting it nicely.

Vanderbilt has been a PF his entire career, even before he went pro, through multiple different organisations and coaches.

But they’re all wrong, apparently.

Did you watch the Washington gam? Did you watch the Cleveland game? Did you watch any of the game where guys get 20 plus rebounds and dominate inside? V8 is many things, but strong enough to switch onto a legit center or large PF, he is not. The scheme we run puts KAT outside more often than not. You cannot have your only true big on the permitter and hope to contain both paint scoring and corner 3 point shooting. The result is we have been giving up quite a bit of easy shots from both spots and we win or lose by opposing teams shooting rather than our defensive effort. For an easy example see Jaylen Brunson miss a wide open corner 3 in clutch time last night and Finch take an angry timeout with just over 3 minutes left.

On offense V8 is two things. A put back guy, and a cutter/roller. Beyond that your asking for trouble. KAT can functionally play 2-5 on offense as his handle, passing, shooting, and rebounding are all next level. But, for our purposes having Christian Wood space the floor alongside KAT opens things up for Dlo, Ant, Nowell, V8, MCD, ect… we need to get opposing bigs out of the paint and this is the best way.

MCD is a true 3 who can play the four in a pinch. He has a weak handle and no mid range. That said, his catch and shoot 3 is improving. He could play SG if all are guards have Covid. Pray that doesn’t happen

[shangrila]

This seems like an odd take to me. V8 might be perfectly capable of guarding SFs but putting Kat, another center, and V8 out there all together on offense is a recipe for disaster.

What's McDaniels in your opinion? A SG?

“Odd” is putting it nicely.

Vanderbilt has been a PF his entire career, even before he went pro, through multiple different organisations and coaches.

But they’re all wrong, apparently.

Did you watch the Washington gam? Did you watch the Cleveland game? Did you watch any of the game where guys get 20 plus rebounds and dominate inside? V8 is many things, but strong enough to switch onto a legit center or large PF, he is not. The scheme we run puts KAT outside more often than not. You cannot have your only true big on the permitter and hope to contain both paint scoring and corner 3 point shooting. The result is we have been giving up quite a bit of easy shots from both spots and we win or lose by opposing teams shooting rather than our defensive effort. For an easy example see Jaylen Brunson miss a wide open corner 3 in clutch time last night and Finch take an angry timeout with just over 3 minutes left.

On offense V8 is two things. A put back guy, and a cutter/roller. Beyond that your asking for trouble. KAT can functionally play 2-5 on offense as his handle, passing, shooting, and rebounding are all next level. But, for our purposes having Christian Wood space the floor alongside KAT opens things up for Dlo, Ant, Nowell, V8, MCD, ect… we need to get opposing bigs out of the paint and this is the best way.

MCD is a true 3 who can play the four in a pinch. He has a weak handle and no mid range. That said, his catch and shoot 3 is improving. He could play SG if all are guards have Covid. Pray that doesn’t happen

Not strong enough to switch onto 7 footers or "large PFs" (whatever the hell they are) doesn't mean he's not a PF. That's some serious goal post moving and I think you know it.

I'll be honest, I don't know what you're going on about with the scheme stuff either. I don't see how any of that changes by inserting Christian Wood into the starting lineup (presumably at the cost of Beverley, since neither Ant nor DLo are heading to the bench). Penetration into the paint is always going to lead to open shots on the perimeter, doesn't matter much what scheme you're running aside from a zone, and the scheme we do run doesn't specifically call for KAT to be out on the perimeter, that's just the end result.

I'm also not sure you fully understand what Wood brings, or rather doesn't. Houston was absolute dog water early in the season and, if you read through game recaps on any of their fan blogs, a lot of the blame was pointed at the two big system they were running specifically with Wood at the 4. The moment they scrapped that and moved Wood to the 5, they started winning. That doesn't give me much hope that plugging him in here will lead to a different outcome, especially as I'm starting to believe he's in the middle between role player and star; too good (in his mind at least) to do the little things you expect from role players while not being good enough to be a true #1 or #2 option offensively.

But this is all off topic as the point both I and Krap were responding to was that Vanderbilt is somehow not a PF. He is. That's not in question, it's not an opinion or subjective in any way. He's factually, empiracally, non-debatedly a PF. Not a SF. Not a C. A PF.

[winforlose]

“Odd” is putting it nicely.

Vanderbilt has been a PF his entire career, even before he went pro, through multiple different organisations and coaches.

But they’re all wrong, apparently.

Did you watch the Washington gam? Did you watch the Cleveland game? Did you watch any of the game where guys get 20 plus rebounds and dominate inside? V8 is many things, but strong enough to switch onto a legit center or large PF, he is not. The scheme we run puts KAT outside more often than not. You cannot have your only true big on the permitter and hope to contain both paint scoring and corner 3 point shooting. The result is we have been giving up quite a bit of easy shots from both spots and we win or lose by opposing teams shooting rather than our defensive effort. For an easy example see Jaylen Brunson miss a wide open corner 3 in clutch time last night and Finch take an angry timeout with just over 3 minutes left.

On offense V8 is two things. A put back guy, and a cutter/roller. Beyond that your asking for trouble. KAT can functionally play 2-5 on offense as his handle, passing, shooting, and rebounding are all next level. But, for our purposes having Christian Wood space the floor alongside KAT opens things up for Dlo, Ant, Nowell, V8, MCD, ect… we need to get opposing bigs out of the paint and this is the best way.

MCD is a true 3 who can play the four in a pinch. He has a weak handle and no mid range. That said, his catch and shoot 3 is improving. He could play SG if all are guards have Covid. Pray that doesn’t happen

Not strong enough to switch onto 7 footers or "large PFs" (whatever the hell they are) doesn't mean he's not a PF. That's some serious goal post moving and I think you know it.

I'll be honest, I don't know what you're going on about with the scheme stuff either. I don't see how any of that changes by inserting Christian Wood into the starting lineup (presumably at the cost of Beverley, since neither Ant nor DLo are heading to the bench). Penetration into the paint is always going to lead to open shots on the perimeter, doesn't matter much what scheme you're running aside from a zone, and the scheme we do run doesn't specifically call for KAT to be out on the perimeter, that's just the end result.

I'm also not sure you fully understand what Wood brings, or rather doesn't. Houston was absolute dog water early in the season and, if you read through game recaps on any of their fan blogs, a lot of the blame was pointed at the two big system they were running specifically with Wood at the 4. The moment they scrapped that and moved Wood to the 5, they started winning. That doesn't give me much hope that plugging him in here will lead to a different outcome, especially as I'm starting to believe he's in the middle between role player and star; too good (in his mind at least) to do the little things you expect from role players while not being good enough to be a true #1 or #2 option offensively.

But this is all off topic as the point both I and Krap were responding to was that Vanderbilt is somehow not a PF. He is. That's not in question, it's not an opinion or subjective in any way. He's factually, empiracally, non-debatedly a PF. Not a SF. Not a C. A PF.

I feel like we are talking in circles, so I will say a couple quick things and leave it alone.

1. Wood played poorly with Theis who is nowhere near as talented as KAT and in a system that wasn’t letting him stay home and defend the paint. My suggested system keeps him home (kinda like opposing teams do to us,) and thus his defensive improvement transfers.

2. KAT spends a ton of time switching onto opposing guards along the perimeter. Whether intentional or not it is the reality.

3. V8 can play the SF in my scheme and have success on both ends of the floor. In our scheme you need a big PF to defend the paint while our center is away from it. When I said V8 is not a PF, I meant that he isn’t a good PF for our defense. On offense who cares what you call the players.

[minimus]

“Odd” is putting it nicely.

Vanderbilt has been a PF his entire career, even before he went pro, through multiple different organisations and coaches.

But they’re all wrong, apparently.

Did you watch the Washington gam? Did you watch the Cleveland game? Did you watch any of the game where guys get 20 plus rebounds and dominate inside? V8 is many things, but strong enough to switch onto a legit center or large PF, he is not. The scheme we run puts KAT outside more often than not. You cannot have your only true big on the permitter and hope to contain both paint scoring and corner 3 point shooting. The result is we have been giving up quite a bit of easy shots from both spots and we win or lose by opposing teams shooting rather than our defensive effort. For an easy example see Jaylen Brunson miss a wide open corner 3 in clutch time last night and Finch take an angry timeout with just over 3 minutes left.

On offense V8 is two things. A put back guy, and a cutter/roller. Beyond that your asking for trouble. KAT can functionally play 2-5 on offense as his handle, passing, shooting, and rebounding are all next level. But, for our purposes having Christian Wood space the floor alongside KAT opens things up for Dlo, Ant, Nowell, V8, MCD, ect… we need to get opposing bigs out of the paint and this is the best way.

MCD is a true 3 who can play the four in a pinch. He has a weak handle and no mid range. That said, his catch and shoot 3 is improving. He could play SG if all are guards have Covid. Pray that doesn’t happen

Not strong enough to switch onto 7 footers or "large PFs" (whatever the hell they are) doesn't mean he's not a PF. That's some serious goal post moving and I think you know it.

I'll be honest, I don't know what you're going on about with the scheme stuff either. I don't see how any of that changes by inserting Christian Wood into the starting lineup (presumably at the cost of Beverley, since neither Ant nor DLo are heading to the bench). Penetration into the paint is always going to lead to open shots on the perimeter, doesn't matter much what scheme you're running aside from a zone, and the scheme we do run doesn't specifically call for KAT to be out on the perimeter, that's just the end result.

I'm also not sure you fully understand what Wood brings, or rather doesn't. Houston was absolute dog water early in the season and, if you read through game recaps on any of their fan blogs, a lot of the blame was pointed at the two big system they were running specifically with Wood at the 4. The moment they scrapped that and moved Wood to the 5, they started winning. That doesn't give me much hope that plugging him in here will lead to a different outcome, especially as I'm starting to believe he's in the middle between role player and star; too good (in his mind at least) to do the little things you expect from role players while not being good enough to be a true #1 or #2 option offensively.

But this is all off topic as the point both I and Krap were responding to was that Vanderbilt is somehow not a PF. He is. That's not in question, it's not an opinion or subjective in any way. He's factually, empiracally, non-debatedly a PF. Not a SF. Not a C. A PF.

I think there is a confusion between position and role. Towns has been bad as bigman in drop scheme, but he is good as bigman in blitz. V8 and MCD are solid as low men in x-out scheme, etc. These are roles. With regard to offense, I remember that MIL played Holiday in dunker spot because he is efficient scorer in post AND this creative scheme allowed Giannis to have more free room on perimeter to operate. Usually it is possible when you have a versatile players, for instance Holiday can score both on perimeter AND in the paint. But we cant give V8 a role that he can't handle, because he is one dimensional player, he can't shoot, can't pass, can't dribble against perimeter defender. And making him 3rd big in starting five would not be beneficial for his rebounding. Right now, as second big he is quicker, more mobile than many opponent bigs, if there opponent plays two bigs in lineup than there won't be so much room for Vando to operate on defensive and offensive boards. They would plant full time one big in the paint in defense and completely take out our slashing game. Right now with Towns and Vando it is 1-4 offensive scheme instead of five-out, where Vando is basically an undersized C, and Towns is a oversized PF. It is a compromise, but it is working for most opponents. What I see as alternative is acquiring big comboforward such as Jerami Grant or Harrison Barnes and apply five-out against teams that figure out our 1-4 scheme.

[Mamba4Goat]

Eric Gordon, imo, is the best non-big man/star trade target for Minnesota. Beasley+Layman+cash+seconds probably gets you pretty close.

[shangrila]

Eric Gordon, imo, is the best non-big man/star trade target for Minnesota. Beasley+Layman+cash+seconds probably gets you pretty close.

It's funny you mention him, because I've been mulling an idea over for the last week that I can't quite balance (at least not enough to take it to T&T).

Started with a post from someone who I can't find anymore who suggested THT from the Lakers for Beasley, which has since snowballed into this monstrosity;

Wolves give: Malik Beasley, Josh Okogie, Naz Reid, Taurean Prince, Jake Layman, '22 1st (top 20 protected, if not convert to 2 2nds), best of '22 2nds
Wolves get: Eric Gordon, Reggie Bullock, Daniel Theis, Moses Brown, '22 1st from PHX (via OKC)

Mavericks give: Reggie Bullock, Moses Brown
Mavericks get: Malik Beasley

Thunder give: '22 1st from PHX
Thunder get: Josh Okogie, Naz Reid, best of '22 2nds via MIN

Houston gives: Eric Gordon, Daniel Theis
Houston gets: Taurean Prince, Jake Layman, '22 1st from MIN (detailed above)

Reason - We essentially swap Beasley for an older but better (or more consistent at least) player in Gordon, while also adding solid vets in both Bullock and Theis. We add Brown to replace Reid as a developmental big and AFAIK he's kind of the C version for Vando (skinny energizer bunny type) which should compliment the KAT/Theis C duo. We also move Reid and pick up a late 1st for him, more or less (basically the Thunder move down in this deal, since we're giving them the best of our 2nds). I know people won't like the 1st being included to Houston but I think it's both what we'll need to do to outbid other teams and sufficiently protected enough in case we either miss or just sneak into the playoffs.

Mavericks take a slight step back with a young floor spacer to pair with Luka long term, at the cost of some money this year and Brown (who I don't think is in their plans).

Thunder, as I mentioned above, essentially move down in this draft for Reid and take a look at Okogie as well I guess.

Houston potentially gets a 1st, at worst a couple of 2nds, while completely shedding salary next season and saving 9.5mil for this season (they, like us, are against the lux so that could be valuable to their FO).

Now, it does have some issues. Assuming the value is right, and I have no idea if it is, it would mess with our future salary commitments. Not enough to tank us but, assuming the Shamsports Capulator is right, we'd have anywhere from about 11-13mil in space below the lux to re-sign both Bev and Nowell (assuming we want RFA rights on him) as well as potentially both our pick and the PHX pick. Doable for sure, but not exactly simple either.

That said it would give us 2-3 years of our death lineup + Gordon, Bullock, Theis and McDaniels off the bench. Assuming Ant continues to develop that should be a consistent playoff team. And if not? Then there's no money committed by the time Edwards' extension would kick in (Theis and Bolmaro have a team option that year) so we can do a hard reset if necessary.

Oh, and sorry for the wall of text. But getting all this crap out has actually been very cathartic so if you made it this far, thanks.

[DaddyCool19]

Would Augustin + Theis for Beasley make some sense? Houston would get out of Theis' contract and Beasley could be used as an expiring next year. If he finishes the season strong on a lottery team, his value should increase in the offseason. And freeing up some minutes for Sengün, Tate and Garuba at the PF/C position would be a bonus.

Augustins contract is only 333k guaranteed next season. Maybe you guys could flip him and Reid (who would probably barely get minutes with Theis there) for some decent wing defender?

[shrink]

Would Augustin + Theis for Beasley make some sense? Houston would get out of Theis' contract and Beasley could be used as an expiring next year. If he finishes the season strong on a lottery team, his value should increase in the offseason. And freeing up some minutes for Sengün, Tate and Garuba at the PF/C position would be a bonus.

Augustins contract is only 333k guaranteed next season. Maybe you guys could flip him and Reid (who would probably barely get minutes with Theis there) for some decent wing defender?

I think this makes some sense. We could definitely use Theis, and I don’t mind his future salary.

I think right now there could be some debate on both sides whether each team would prefer Beasley and his $15.5 mil next season, or the expiring Prince. I am hopeful Beasley continues to improve, but I’m sure there are plenty on both sides that are wondering whether he is worth.

In this Covid season, I think I wouldn’t mind more depth, and Augustine is serviceable. For that reason, I’d lean towards keeping Malik over Prince.

[Mamba4Goat]

I can’t find a good middle ground but there’s a Brunson+forward(s) for McDaniels+?? type trade that would be an absolute cure all for this team.