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Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!)

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#901 » by younggunsmn » Sat Jun 8, 2024 5:11 am

Domejandro wrote:
shangrila wrote:
Domejandro wrote:I understand why people want to keep Naz Reid long-term, I would like to as well, but at some point there has to be some recognition that the dude is an absolute disaster defensively, for the most part. It is a serious problem, when projecting him as a serious piece to build around, moving forward.

"Absolute disaster defensively" is ridiculous hyperbole.

He's not great but he's not a trainwreck. And that is with the full understanding that he did suck in the Dallas series.

It absolutely is not hyperbole, Minnesota's defensive rating against Dallas cratered by over twenty when Naz touched the court. :lol:

Naz has flashes of exciting individual defense, but he is legitimately really, really bad on that side of the court. Outside of Karl-Anthony Towns' power outage offensively (and Anthony Edwards playing poorly), the single biggest factor for Minnesota losing to Dallas was Naz Reid's defense. He was horrifyingly bad at helping the helper, their bigs feasted because he failed every single possession (outside of one, that I remember) to rotate when Rudy blitzed. It was probably the worst defensive performance I've seen from a big man, despite watching multiple defensive stalwarts like drop-coverage Karl-Anthony Towns, Kevin Love, and Al Jefferson.


You and I did not watch the same playoff series.
Game 1 featured some of the worst drop coverage from Rudy Gobert that I have ever seen in my life.
Game 2 featured KAT missing pretty much every single defensive rotation.

Naz missed plenty of rotations too but they were moreso leaving the corner 3 open.
To single him out as a role player for a team wide meltdown is disengenuos.

Rudy Gobert, at 7'2 with a Gynormous wingspan, didn't affect a single pass, cutoff a single passing lane, or funnel the ballhandler right into the help in any of his halhearted "blitzes".

It was a matter of extremely poor coaching, asking players to run a system they were not used to and could not execute because it got no usage in the regular season, and one that Rudy Gobert clearly has very little enthusiasm for.

Boston blew out Dallas and held Luka Doncic to a single assist in game 1.
Luka and Kyrie were good against us, but we were also really really really bad, and that's not all on Naz Reid, who was pretty damn good guarding Jokic in the previous series while Rudy Gobert was getting ROFLstomped.

Naz Reid was the only reason we even had a chance to win game 2, and if Gobert hadn't idiotically switched onto Luka on the last possession there is a chance we might still be playing.

His offensive performance in game 5 was dreadful though and he had way too many bad turnovers and missed layups in this series.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#902 » by minimus » Sat Jun 8, 2024 5:29 am

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I would love to get Avdija in MIN. I think if a player exist that fits MIN defensive identity at PF AND is improving in offense - it is Avdija
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#903 » by TimberKat » Sat Jun 8, 2024 3:51 pm

Cade Cunningham is going to get a max deal. Now you can trade Towns for him but is he any better than Towns in terms overall impact?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#904 » by Neeva » Sat Jun 8, 2024 4:06 pm

Detroit and the Wizards are bad trade partners because they both suck real bad so it makes no sense for them to be trading their best player/asset for a win now piece like Kat or Rudy. They would be looking to pair Cade/Deni with Kat for instance, but they don’t have anything else that could be useful for the wolves, who are trying to win a championship next season.

Maybe Naz for Deni? , still doubt wizards do that and it wouldn’t save the wolves any money anyway. Deni will be very overpayed soon.
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Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#905 » by minimus » Sat Jun 8, 2024 7:47 pm

BRO IN: Randle, NYK 2024 FRP
BRO OUT: Cameron Johnson

Why for BRO: get pick for rebuild

NYK IN: Towns, Moore
NYK OUT: Josh Hart, Randle, NYK 2024 FRP, NYK 2025 FRP, MIL 2025 FRP top-4 protected (via NYK)

Why for NYK: they have 5 FRPs in 2024-2025 drafts and they need an offensive minded big

MIN IN: Cameron Johnson, Josh Hart, NYK 2024 FRP, NYK 2025 FRP, MIL 2025 FRP top-4 protected (via NYK)
MIN OUT: Towns, Moore

Why for MIN: get big shooting wing at SF/PF, get toughness at SG/PG, get two FRPs in 2025 draft. Re-sign Anderson, Morris.

Gobert/Reid/???
Reid/Anderson/Johnson/Miller
McDaniels/Johnson/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Clarke
Conley/Hart/Morris
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#906 » by Klomp » Sat Jun 8, 2024 11:12 pm

minimus wrote:BRO IN: Randle, NYK 2024 FRP
BRO OUT: Cameron Johnson

Why for BRO: get pick for rebuild

NYK IN: WCJ, #27 2024 MIN pick
NYK OUT: Josh Hart, Randle, NYK 2024 FRP, NYK 2025 FRP, MIL 2025 FRP top-4 protected (via NYK)

Why for NYK: they have 5 FRPs in 2024-2025 drafts and they need an offensive minded big

MIN IN: Cameron Johnson, Josh Hart, NYK 2024 FRP, NYK 2025 FRP, MIL 2025 FRP top-4 protected (via NYK)
MIN OUT: Towns, Moore

Why for MIN: get big shooting wing at SF/PF, get toughness at SG/PG, get two FRPs in 2025 draft. Re-sign Anderson, Morris.

Gobert/Reid/???
Reid/Anderson/Johnson/Miller
McDaniels/Johnson/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Clarke
Conley/Hart/Morris

I keep going back to a New York offer knowing that it will never be the sexiest offer on the table, but it easily could represent the correct DNA for what this franchise's culture is both now and in the near future. Josh Hart is a perfect example as an incredible glue guy. Over the last four seasons, he averages 7.9 rebounds per game as a guy who stands roughly the size of Anthony Edwards. I would also add that he's another guy who has been connected to Chris Finch in the past.

Randle is a highly scrutinized player even though he's not coming to Minnesota in this proposed trade, and I understand it all. He would not be a focal point of any trade package, even though he would likely be the most expensive piece coming in. But when you're trading away a $50 million player, there will have to be a high-priced player coming back. And while Randle isn't an ideal return, I think Randle could get productivity out of him.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#907 » by Neeva » Sat Jun 8, 2024 11:41 pm

No sorry, **** the knicks. They were better without Randle.

I think if Kat finally gets traded it’s to the Hawks, Suns or maybe the Magic/Hornets.

My bet is the Hawks though, even their fan base sees it.
They will have to pony up a nice deal though because that’s the only way the wolves trade Kat now with rich new part owner.
Murray, Capela(filler) Johnson, and picks.
Hawks roll with Kat,Trae and Sarr to get into the playoffs.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#908 » by BlacJacMac » Sun Jun 9, 2024 12:53 am

Neeva wrote:No sorry, **** the knicks. They were better without Randle.

I think if Kat finally gets traded it’s to the Hawks, Suns or maybe the Magic/Hornets.

My bet is the Hawks though, even their fan base sees it.
They will have to pony up a nice deal though because that’s the only way the wolves trade Kat now with rich new part owner.
Murray, Capela(filler) Johnson, and picks.
Hawks roll with Kat,Trae and Sarr to get into the playoffs.


I do that one. Murray is the big name, but Johnson is the bigger prize.

Murray/Conley
Ant/NAW
McDaniels/Johnson/Miller
Johnson/Naz/Miller
Rudy/Naz

Fill in the rest with draft picks, ring chasers and/or SloMo.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#909 » by Colbinii » Sun Jun 9, 2024 1:44 am

minimus wrote:BRO IN: Randle, NYK 2024 FRP
BRO OUT: Cameron Johnson

Why for BRO: get pick for rebuild

NYK IN: WCJ, #27 2024 MIN pick
NYK OUT: Josh Hart, Randle, NYK 2024 FRP, NYK 2025 FRP, MIL 2025 FRP top-4 protected (via NYK)

Why for NYK: they have 5 FRPs in 2024-2025 drafts and they need an offensive minded big

MIN IN: Cameron Johnson, Josh Hart, NYK 2024 FRP, NYK 2025 FRP, MIL 2025 FRP top-4 protected (via NYK)
MIN OUT: Towns, Moore

Why for MIN: get big shooting wing at SF/PF, get toughness at SG/PG, get two FRPs in 2025 draft. Re-sign Anderson, Morris.

Gobert/Reid/???
Reid/Anderson/Johnson/Miller
McDaniels/Johnson/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Clarke
Conley/Hart/Morris


Minnesota can't aggregate salary. Feel like I've said that here already.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#910 » by Klomp » Sun Jun 9, 2024 2:10 am

Colbinii wrote:Minnesota can't aggregate salary. Feel like I've said that here already.

Technically, they can still before the new league year, I believe.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#911 » by shrink » Sun Jun 9, 2024 2:52 am

Two players together does not necessarily mean a salary aggregation. Aggregation only occurs when the salaries have to be added together so the sum will make a trade legal. NYK has three TPE’s that fit WMJ and are about to expire anyway, so this could be two separate trades:

Towns for Johnson + Hart + pick
WMJ for pick and TPE

I like very much that this trade doesn’t stick us with Randall, but I think any trades where a chunk of the value comes from 1sts is a downgrade in on-court talent that Connelly wouldn’t do, trying to build on last year’s success.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#912 » by wolves_89 » Sun Jun 9, 2024 12:04 pm

Klomp wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Minnesota can't aggregate salary. Feel like I've said that here already.

Technically, they can still before the new league year, I believe.


That's why if the Wolves do make a major trade I expect it will be on or before draft night.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#913 » by Norseman79 » Sun Jun 9, 2024 4:58 pm

If...IF... Kat is traded, I'm expecting a point guard and young front court player at minimum coming back... potentially coupled with picks depending on players. I could easily see it having to be a 3 team type of trade to check all boxes.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#914 » by minimus » Sun Jun 9, 2024 8:10 pm

Norseman79 wrote:If...IF... Kat is traded, I'm expecting a point guard and young front court player at minimum coming back... potentially coupled with picks depending on players. I could easily see it having to be a 3 team type of trade to check all boxes.

Do we really need more young players? I understand that we need players on rookie deals, I mean bargain deal, but our core Edwards-McDaniels-Reid-NAW is young enough. I'd love to get someone like Jalen Johnson or Nembhard but it's more exception than normal because teams really value such guys. At this point I am happy to split Towns supermax contract into smaller contracts: read 25-30yo players who have enough experience and understanding of their roles, strength and weaknesses. Plus picks.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#915 » by shrink » Mon Jun 10, 2024 2:16 am

I know a lot of discussion about Towns’ trades come from the limited experience we have with the brand new CBA rules about second apron penalties, so I’ll put this piece here.

The NBA Board of Governors has always been concerned about maintaining competitive balance for rich and poor teams, and they have tried to create rules to level the playing field without enacting a true hard cap that would cause the players union to go out on strike. With every iteration, they think they have the problem licked, and after it’s in place a few years, owners blow past it in an effort to spend more to win a championship.

- A Salary Cap will stop over-spending. Teams won’t want to salary match in trades, or be limited by exceptions for FA’s?
- That didn’t work? Let’s put in a Luxury Tax. Teams won’t pay $15 mil for a $5 mil player
- That didn’t work? OK let’s put in Repeater Tax. Teams surely won’t pay $25 for a $5 mil player
- That didn’t work? OK, let’s put in the First Apron, with additional penalties and restrictions.
- That didn’t work? OK, let’s put in the Second Apron, with additional penalties and restrictions.

The second apron is just the newest scare tactic, and like the others, it’s not scaring anyone. Maybe eight teams projected to be over that threshold. In my estimation, a few championship level teams may be willing to stay over the second apron for two years, and then dive back down to avoid some of the worst penalties.

TLDR: Wolves may spend the next two years as an ultra-expensive team while they try for a ring, then may dive down after.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#916 » by Domejandro » Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:19 am

BlacJacMac wrote:
Neeva wrote:No sorry, **** the knicks. They were better without Randle.

I think if Kat finally gets traded it’s to the Hawks, Suns or maybe the Magic/Hornets.

My bet is the Hawks though, even their fan base sees it.
They will have to pony up a nice deal though because that’s the only way the wolves trade Kat now with rich new part owner.
Murray, Capela(filler) Johnson, and picks.
Hawks roll with Kat,Trae and Sarr to get into the playoffs.


I do that one. Murray is the big name, but Johnson is the bigger prize.

Murray/Conley
Ant/NAW
McDaniels/Johnson/Miller
Johnson/Naz/Miller
Rudy/Naz

Fill in the rest with draft picks, ring chasers and/or SloMo.

Atlanta almost certainly isn't looking to package away Jalen Johnson alongside Dejounte Murray, in a Karl-Anthony Towns trade. They see him as a core piece, and are trying to trend towards a rebuild.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#917 » by minimus » Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:25 am

Klomp wrote:I keep going back to a New York offer knowing that it will never be the sexiest offer on the table, but it easily could represent the correct DNA for what this franchise's culture is both now and in the near future. Josh Hart is a perfect example as an incredible glue guy. Over the last four seasons, he averages 7.9 rebounds per game as a guy who stands roughly the size of Anthony Edwards. I would also add that he's another guy who has been connected to Chris Finch in the past.


While I am watching Finals I have noticed how physical both Holiday and White are. This is something that Conley brought here, and this was first thing many have mentioned as difference between DLo and Conley. Conley (when he is healthy) gives 100% effort. Also this was first thing that I noticed when Conley was injured in playoffs.

Also physicality is somehow underrated IMO, with some many wings playing in post, so many guards setting good screens (I did not know that Curry is one of the best at setting off ball screens), your team MUST be physical at all five positions, it cant be only bigmen how fights for rebounds, it can be only bigs how set good screens, it cant be only bigs who punishes smaller guys and score in post.

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Both NAW and McDaniels are elite defenders, but they are not superphysical. Maybe Jalen Clark is. But right now Edwards might be the only physical defender in MIN, which might not be enough.

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#918 » by Domejandro » Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:26 am

For the New York suggestions, New York is in a funky spot where salary aggregation could lock them out of being able to adequately resign key free-agents (by hard-capping them under the Second Apron). While it isn't infeasible, it's hard to see them wanting to trade Josh Hart and multiple firsts just to upgrade Julius Randle to Karl-Anthony Towns, especially given the Second Apron considerations.

Honestly, I just don't see that trade as reasonable from New York's perspective.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#919 » by Klomp » Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:22 pm

Domejandro wrote:For the New York suggestions, New York is in a funky spot where salary aggregation could lock them out of being able to adequately resign key free-agents (by hard-capping them under the Second Apron). While it isn't infeasible, it's hard to see them wanting to trade Josh Hart and multiple firsts just to upgrade Julius Randle to Karl-Anthony Towns, especially given the Second Apron considerations.

Honestly, I just don't see that trade as reasonable from New York's perspective.

They are nearly $40 million away from the second apron, and don't have that much they need to add. Anunoby has a player option for just under $20 million (which is already factored into that apron space), but none of free agents Achiuwa, Burks or Hartenstein should cost over $10 million.

But that's a fair consideration that I have not looked at yet.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!) 

Post#920 » by Klomp » Mon Jun 10, 2024 5:34 pm

minimus wrote:
Klomp wrote:I keep going back to a New York offer knowing that it will never be the sexiest offer on the table, but it easily could represent the correct DNA for what this franchise's culture is both now and in the near future. Josh Hart is a perfect example as an incredible glue guy. Over the last four seasons, he averages 7.9 rebounds per game as a guy who stands roughly the size of Anthony Edwards. I would also add that he's another guy who has been connected to Chris Finch in the past.


While I am watching Finals I have noticed how physical both Holiday and White are. This is something that Conley brought here, and this was first thing many have mentioned as difference between DLo and Conley. Conley (when he is healthy) gives 100% effort. Also this was first thing that I noticed when Conley was injured in playoffs.

Also physicality is somehow underrated IMO, with some many wings playing in post, so many guards setting good screens (I did not know that Curry is one of the best at setting off ball screens), your team MUST be physical at all five positions, it cant be only bigmen how fights for rebounds, it can be only bigs how set good screens, it cant be only bigs who punishes smaller guys and score in post.

This is a massive reason why I have felt the New York offer could have some appeal, even though it lacks the big names. Trades are many times about finding something that your team lacks. The Gobert trade brought rim protection and deterrence, and an overall defensive identity. The Conley trade brought leadership and ball control.

I know people are excited about the individual talents an Atlanta offer could provide, but I don't know if there's one big thing doing a deal like that could provide. I guess probably another shot creator, which is absolutely an identifiable need. But does it help a culture shift for the entire team like Gobert and Conley provided?
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