Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[winforlose]

I can’t find a good middle ground but there’s a Brunson+forward(s) for McDaniels+?? type trade that would be an absolute cure all for this team.

MCD is showing flashes of a bright future. In a year or two when he has his fouling under control and improves his handle just enough to get to the rim a little quicker, we are going to be glad we kept him. As for Brunson, I worry we cannot give him enough minutes. With Bev at the one and Dlo at the two he cannot start. We could run Brunson with Dlo in the second unit but I worry about the defense. Also, Nowell is emerging as a legit option for backup PG or SG with Dlo, especially after we move Beasley.

[shrink]

I can’t find a good middle ground but there’s a Brunson+forward(s) for McDaniels+?? type trade that would be an absolute cure all for this team.

MCD is showing flashes of a bright future. In a year or two when he has his fouling under control and improves his handle just enough to get to the rim a little quicker, we are going to be glad we kept him. As for Brunson, I worry we cannot give him enough minutes. With Bev at the one and Dlo at the two he cannot start. We could run Brunson with Dlo in the second unit but I worry about the defense. Also, Nowell is emerging as a legit option for backup PG or SG with Dlo, especially after we move Beasley.

I doubt Brunson wants to be here after his dad was forced to resign over improper conduct towards women.

[winforlose]

I can’t find a good middle ground but there’s a Brunson+forward(s) for McDaniels+?? type trade that would be an absolute cure all for this team.

MCD is showing flashes of a bright future. In a year or two when he has his fouling under control and improves his handle just enough to get to the rim a little quicker, we are going to be glad we kept him. As for Brunson, I worry we cannot give him enough minutes. With Bev at the one and Dlo at the two he cannot start. We could run Brunson with Dlo in the second unit but I worry about the defense. Also, Nowell is emerging as a legit option for backup PG or SG with Dlo, especially after we move Beasley.

I doubt Brunson wants to be here after his dad was forced to resign over improper conduct towards women.

Not familiar with the story. Can you please elaborate?

[karch34]

MCD is showing flashes of a bright future. In a year or two when he has his fouling under control and improves his handle just enough to get to the rim a little quicker, we are going to be glad we kept him. As for Brunson, I worry we cannot give him enough minutes. With Bev at the one and Dlo at the two he cannot start. We could run Brunson with Dlo in the second unit but I worry about the defense. Also, Nowell is emerging as a legit option for backup PG or SG with Dlo, especially after we move Beasley.

I doubt Brunson wants to be here after his dad was forced to resign over improper conduct towards women.

Not familiar with the story. Can you please elaborate?

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/5/8/17333162/rick-brunson-resign-timberwolves-assistant-coach-allegations

[winforlose]

I doubt Brunson wants to be here after his dad was forced to resign over improper conduct towards women.

Not familiar with the story. Can you please elaborate?

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2018/5/8/17333162/rick-brunson-resign-timberwolves-assistant-coach-allegations

Thanks. First I heard of it, but good to know.

[NYG]

What kind of draft pick compensation would the T'Wolves add to a Taurean Prince, Jake Layman and Josh Okogie for Harrison Barnes trade?

[Klomp]

I still feel like Beasley/Reid is the package that will be dealt at the deadline, with possibly a side of Prince. What's to be determined yet is the return value they will bring.

[winforlose]

I still feel like Beasley/Reid is the package that will be dealt at the deadline, with possibly a side of Prince. What's to be determined yet is the return value they will bring.

If you move Reid then you either commit to Knight or Monroe, or bring 2 more bigs. Without KAT we are paper thin. This works for a bottom team trying to limp their way through a rebuild to develop their young talent. We are not that team. We have finished our rebuild and are now hoping to begin the ascent. Ideally when Ant and MCD come to their development peaks we will be ready to contend. Practically, we can never contend until we have a solid big beside KAT.

[shrink]

I still feel like Beasley/Reid is the package that will be dealt at the deadline, with possibly a side of Prince. What's to be determined yet is the return value they will bring.

I tend to agree.

WinForLose is correct, that we’d need a replacement, but I put Naz firmly in the “worth more to others than us,” and therefore a trade asset we could use to improve the team. In my opinion, Naz could start for a handful of teams, and with his tiny salary (at least for now), he would improve any team’s payroll.

I also question if we can hold onto him for long. This summer we have a huge choice on him. If we don’t decline his salary next year, he becomes a true UFA the following year, and it would be unlikely he’d stay here, after we cost him millions. If we do decline that cheap next season, he becomes an RFA this summer, so we’d have the right to match offers. If other teams offer him starter money, we’d be foolish to match, to pay that much for a player that will see most of his minutes as just a back up to Towns.

—-

Beasley is a little harder decision. Right now, we are almost the #1 team in 3PA, and only #18 in 3P% at 34.4%. Before anyone shudders at 34.4, keep in mind that three point shooting is down over the entire NBA, and even the best shooting teams are sub-38%. Anyway, if your team attempts that many three’s, you need shooters that can make them. Beasley started the season slowly, and is up to 34.8%, but he’s been a 40% shooter the last two years for us, on high volume and with many tough attempts. Waiting to trade him might be the right play, betting his shooting will improve, and he will further distance himself from his gun charges. I think though that the entire NBA may be looking for three point shooters, so if a team will offer value based on what Malik should get back to, it might be wise to move him, and free up more minutes at SG, for Nowell and to slide Edwards down to his natural position more often.

[shrink]

What we trade FOR is a question for me as well. I wrote this on the Trade Board a few days ago.

Chris Finch is definitely running a balancing act. I had assumed this year when MIN acquired Beverley that he would be the third guard while 3P-starved MIN started Beasley with DLo. Beverly though has provided Finch a two-way player that allows DLo to guard the weaker guard threat, and they have great two-man numbers (+23.9 in 283 minutes). Beasley gets relegated to third guard, unless there is a specific need for playmaking (Jaylen Nowell) or defense (Josh Okogie). Finch also walks that fine line at PF. They got Vanderbilt to sign for back-up money, so financially he could be a back up. I expected for many months that MIN would find a starting PF that could score and spread the floor to prevent KAT from being doubled by both bigs. However, what Vando takes away spreading the floor, he makes up for with extra possessions on offensive rebounds, and his defense has been great again this year.

Chris Finch has produced a starting five with a 138.0, OFF Rtg, and a 88.4 DEF Rtg. That’s an astonishing 49.6 NET Rtg in 127 minutes. These players individually have warts, and bringing in someone like Harrison Barnes would raise the individual talent level of the position. But would the team decline if we pushed Vando to the bench, and ruin whatever alchemy Finch has discovered? Or do we make smaller trades to improve our bench, and see if we can get all five back again to see if they can replicate what they’ve done?

The way forward is no longer so clear to me.

[winforlose]

What we trade FOR is a question for me as well. I wrote this on the Trade Board a few days ago.

Chris Finch is definitely running a balancing act. I had assumed this year when MIN acquired Beverley that he would be the third guard while 3P-starved MIN started Beasley with DLo. Beverly though has provided Finch a two-way player that allows DLo to guard the weaker guard threat, and they have great two-man numbers (+23.9 in 283 minutes). Beasley gets relegated to third guard, unless there is a specific need for playmaking (Jaylen Nowell) or defense (Josh Okogie). Finch also walks that fine line at PF. They got Vanderbilt to sign for back-up money, so financially he could be a back up. I expected for many months that MIN would find a starting PF that could score and spread the floor to prevent KAT from being doubled by both bigs. However, what Vando takes away spreading the floor, he makes up for with extra possessions on offensive rebounds, and his defense has been great again this year.

Chris Finch has produced a starting five with a 138.0, OFF Rtg, and a 88.4 DEF Rtg. That’s an astonishing 49.6 NET Rtg in 127 minutes. These players individually have warts, and bringing in someone like Harrison Barnes would raise the individual talent level of the position. But would the team decline if we pushed Vando to the bench, and ruin whatever alchemy Finch has discovered? Or do we make smaller trades to improve our bench, and see if we can get all five back again to see if they can replicate what they’ve done?

The way forward is no longer so clear to me.

There are two ways you can build a rotation. The first is to put your money on the floor and hope for the best. The second is to put your talent on the floor and hope for the best. The benching of Beasley and Gorgui before him was about putting our talent on the floor instead of our money. I talk about this because Dlo can and should spend more time with the second unit, as should Ant. If V8 moves to SF and KAT to PF now you have the new guy playing C. With your past two spots you start Bev and Ant and sub one of them out for Dlo after 6 minutes. Dlo becomes your 6th man and plays against more second line defense. Ant and Dlo also have shown an interesting chemistry which should be explored more with the second unit. Especially if they have Nowell to further space the floor and extend the defense.

Dlo is no doubt valuable, but Bev is elite level defense and is a more dynamic ball handler. Dlo’s shooting has also been inconsistent at best and unplayable at worst. The fact is he cost us several games and will do so again. He might not like spending time on the bench, but that is motivation to fix his shot. In the meantime, the extra size of having 3 bigs on the floor will improve our rebounding and paint scoring. Tonight I expect to see MCD, Knight, and Monroe share the floor, imagine instead we had V8, KAT, and Turner. Cleveland has shown what Philly proved, size wins games.

[minimus]

What we trade FOR is a question for me as well. I wrote this on the Trade Board a few days ago.

Chris Finch is definitely running a balancing act. I had assumed this year when MIN acquired Beverley that he would be the third guard while 3P-starved MIN started Beasley with DLo. Beverly though has provided Finch a two-way player that allows DLo to guard the weaker guard threat, and they have great two-man numbers (+23.9 in 283 minutes). Beasley gets relegated to third guard, unless there is a specific need for playmaking (Jaylen Nowell) or defense (Josh Okogie). Finch also walks that fine line at PF. They got Vanderbilt to sign for back-up money, so financially he could be a back up. I expected for many months that MIN would find a starting PF that could score and spread the floor to prevent KAT from being doubled by both bigs. However, what Vando takes away spreading the floor, he makes up for with extra possessions on offensive rebounds, and his defense has been great again this year.

Chris Finch has produced a starting five with a 138.0, OFF Rtg, and a 88.4 DEF Rtg. That’s an astonishing 49.6 NET Rtg in 127 minutes. These players individually have warts, and bringing in someone like Harrison Barnes would raise the individual talent level of the position. But would the team decline if we pushed Vando to the bench, and ruin whatever alchemy Finch has discovered? Or do we make smaller trades to improve our bench, and see if we can get all five back again to see if they can replicate what they’ve done?

The way forward is no longer so clear to me.

Trade Beasley, Layman, Okogie, Top10 protected pick for Barnes/Grant. Then play Vando-Barnes-MCD on PF/SF based on matchups. With further MCD development on offensive and defensive end it might a working solution moving forward. Towns-Barnes-MCD is a true five-out against teams that use double teams against Towns and overloading against Edwards. Towns-Vando-MCD is against all others.

[Neeva]

Who is Barnes/Grant?

[winforlose]

Who is Barnes/Grant?

I think the / means or and he means Harrison Barnes or Jerami Grant

[MN7725]

What we trade FOR is a question for me as well. I wrote this on the Trade Board a few days ago.

Chris Finch is definitely running a balancing act. I had assumed this year when MIN acquired Beverley that he would be the third guard while 3P-starved MIN started Beasley with DLo. Beverly though has provided Finch a two-way player that allows DLo to guard the weaker guard threat, and they have great two-man numbers (+23.9 in 283 minutes). Beasley gets relegated to third guard, unless there is a specific need for playmaking (Jaylen Nowell) or defense (Josh Okogie). Finch also walks that fine line at PF. They got Vanderbilt to sign for back-up money, so financially he could be a back up. I expected for many months that MIN would find a starting PF that could score and spread the floor to prevent KAT from being doubled by both bigs. However, what Vando takes away spreading the floor, he makes up for with extra possessions on offensive rebounds, and his defense has been great again this year.

Chris Finch has produced a starting five with a 138.0, OFF Rtg, and a 88.4 DEF Rtg. That’s an astonishing 49.6 NET Rtg in 127 minutes. These players individually have warts, and bringing in someone like Harrison Barnes would raise the individual talent level of the position. But would the team decline if we pushed Vando to the bench, and ruin whatever alchemy Finch has discovered? Or do we make smaller trades to improve our bench, and see if we can get all five back again to see if they can replicate what they’ve done?

The way forward is no longer so clear to me.

Pat Bev has a career of not being an effective player in playoff situations, thats why his teams have looked to upgrade him even though he is an easy fit in pretty much any lineup

players like Vanderbilt have struggled to get on the court in playoff games for what, 8+ years?

the success of the lineup shows that ANT/KAT/Russell with two defensive minded players can be strong lineup, but not looking to improve it would be ignoring a lot of recent history of what works in the highest levels of NBA basketball

Russell/KAT/ANT with two combo forward types would be my ideal so that opposing teams that have smallish guards/wings would have tough matchup, its too bad Prince and McDaniels have played so poorly to feel comfortable with one of them filling one of those roles

[Klomp]

I still feel like Beasley/Reid is the package that will be dealt at the deadline, with possibly a side of Prince. What's to be determined yet is the return value they will bring.

If you move Reid then you either commit to Knight or Monroe, or bring 2 more bigs. Without KAT we are paper thin. This works for a bottom team trying to limp their way through a rebuild to develop their young talent. We are not that team. We have finished our rebuild and are now hoping to begin the ascent. Ideally when Ant and MCD come to their development peaks we will be ready to contend. Practically, we can never contend until we have a solid big beside KAT.

Keep in mind that the number one target for us to acquire at the deadline is a big man. By default there will be a replacement in place. And I don't think Monroe or Knight as a fourth big is a stretch, even for a team fighting for the playoffs.

[winforlose]

I still feel like Beasley/Reid is the package that will be dealt at the deadline, with possibly a side of Prince. What's to be determined yet is the return value they will bring.

If you move Reid then you either commit to Knight or Monroe, or bring 2 more bigs. Without KAT we are paper thin. This works for a bottom team trying to limp their way through a rebuild to develop their young talent. We are not that team. We have finished our rebuild and are now hoping to begin the ascent. Ideally when Ant and MCD come to their development peaks we will be ready to contend. Practically, we can never contend until we have a solid big beside KAT.

Keep in mind that the number one target for us to acquire at the deadline is a big man. By default there will be a replacement in place. And I don't think Monroe or Knight as a fourth big is a stretch, even for a team fighting for the playoffs.

I loved Monroe last night. Big Moose was amazing given he had known Finch for less than a day before playing. I mean when Finch was asked about Moose’s minutes and says “I just met him 30 minutes ago,” that was insane to me. But, Moose needs to make the most of his opportunities tonight and maybe Friday to demonstrate that he is a night in and night out NBA player.

Knight is someone I just don’t believe in yet. He couldn’t guard Gobert. Granted Gobert isn’t the worst center in the NBA offensively, but Knight has shown more often than not that he isn’t an NBA center. One good game against a team without a true center isn’t enough to sell me on Knight as a rotation player much less essential depth to build around.

Moving Naz out means that even if your bring someone in you didn’t gain depth. So what happens when KAT takes a bad spill and sprains his wrist and needs two weeks to heal. New big starts at the 5 and Knight or Moose backs him up. Knight who cannot guard the five and Moose who hasn’t been an NBA player since 2019 but for one good (and truly bizarre,) Covid game.

The Wolves need a legit 20/10 guy beside KAT and someone like Theis behind him as well. Now if you want to move Reid as part of a Wood and Theis deal I am okay with that. But unless we bring back 2 bigs I would not move Naz.

[shrink]

I like Harrison Barnes offensively next to KAT, but he’s 6-8 and only 225; he is definitely the “big wing” type of PF that Rosas wanted. He is an average defender though, so it’s easier to play guys like that in the play offs. He’s also from Ames Iowa - he’s not going to hate a trade to Minnesota .. in fact, he may have been a big KG fan growing up. So .. maybe?

I have kind of dismissed Jerami Grant as an option, because I think he’d hate being traded here to be a fourth option. Moving to a better team is not a motivator for him - he left Denver to sign with Detroit because he wanted a bigger role offensively.

[winforlose]

I like Harrison Barnes offensively next to KAT, but he’s 6-8 and only 225; he is definitely the “big wing” type of PF that Rosas wanted. He is an average defender though, so it’s easier to play guys like that in the play offs. He’s also from Ames Iowa - he’s not going to hate a trade to Minnesota .. in fact, he may have been a big KG fan growing up. So .. maybe?

I have kind of dismissed Jerami Grant as an option, because I think he’d hate being traded here to be a fourth option. Moving to a better team is not a motivator for him - he left Denver to sign with Detroit because he wanted a bigger role offensively.

Wouldn’t Grant be the 2nd option in the 2nd unit as well as the third option once Dlo sits down, (early out for 2nd unit in the first and 3rd?) I ask because Grant would be a significant contributor especially if anyone significant is out. That said, I don’t know that his rebounding is good enough to fit our needs.

[shrink]

There are two ways you can build a rotation. The first is to put your money on the floor and hope for the best. The second is to put your talent on the floor and hope for the best. The benching of Beasley and Gorgui before him was about putting our talent on the floor instead of our money. I talk about this because Dlo can and should spend more time with the second unit, as should Ant. If V8 moves to SF and KAT to PF now you have the new guy playing C. With your past two spots you start Bev and Ant and sub one of them out for Dlo after 6 minutes. Dlo becomes your 6th man and plays against more second line defense. Ant and Dlo also have shown an interesting chemistry which should be explored more with the second unit. Especially if they have Nowell to further space the floor and extend the defense.

I’m not sure I agree with this.

Dieng was benched not based on talent, but on fit. He just couldn’t run the floor, and Rosas demanded a running team. The teams numbers with Dieng and KAT weren’t bad .. surprisingly better than Covington and KAT (though I think RoCo was miscast as a PF). And Beverley and Beasley make about the same.

I don’t think we see Beverley the same way. I am no fan of DLo, but he is a true PG who can run an offense and create his own shot. I feel like Beverley is only called a PG because he’s smaller, but he’s a defensive guard who can shoot assisted three pointers. He’s never averaged even 5 APG, and 40% of his shots are three’s. I would prefer Nowell or McLaughlin on the floor with Beverley if he’s not out there with DLo, so the team has shot creation.