Woj: Wolves trade for Gobert

[shrink]

It's almost comical how well Connelly recouped the depth lost in the Gobert trade.

You look back at the initial thoughts and people were critical because we were trading away two starters and the 2021-22 sixth man in Beverley, Vanderbilt and Beasley.

I agree, and the hardest thing for a good talent evaluator to do is to find minutes for all his good acquisitions.

Yes, we traded 5 players for Gobert, but that consolidation trade creates opportunity to get more out of talented players the Wolves found, who were limited in impact solely because better players were ahead of them.

[minimus]

It's almost comical how well Connelly recouped the depth lost in the Gobert trade.

You look back at the initial thoughts and people were critical because we were trading away two starters and the 2021-22 sixth man in Beverley, Vanderbilt and Beasley.

However, when you look deeper....
-Kyle Anderson (already agreed to terms) was likely to fill one of those spots, either starting PF or sixth man).
-Beverley was unlikely to remain in starting lineup due to age, health and Jaden McDaniels waiting in the wings.
-Beasley played a big role off the bench, but Nowell was waiting in the wings.

All three players were unlikely to keep their same value. They were great for us last season, but the sustainability was a low probability for where we are trying to go. I'm not sure their values could get any higher.

If we are just comparing the individual pieces in the trade from at the time of the trade, I'm fine with people believing we lost value. However, McDaniels' development, Nowell's development and Anderson's signing are big pieces that to me allowed us to shift the balance of the power structure of the roster. Those are three key role players to fill in for the role players lost in the trade.

I haven't even gotten into the other vets such as Bryn Forbes, Austin Rivers or the resigning of Taurean Prince to help fill in the gaps.

I remember that when Beverley extension was announced I immediately felt like it was kind of workaround, patch. That extension was one year overpaid contract, and while Beverley was an ideal fit skillswise, I did not see how his value and impact will be bigger after one more season. Pat had one of the best career year for instance in terms of playmaking, but he also showed signs of age, he missed games. Same with Beasley. It is very questionable way to improve team if we just re-sign all our players. That roster had successful season, but also had some objective limits, for instance size. I am still very surprised that TC made this bold move.

[winforlose]

It's almost comical how well Connelly recouped the depth lost in the Gobert trade.

You look back at the initial thoughts and people were critical because we were trading away two starters and the 2021-22 sixth man in Beverley, Vanderbilt and Beasley.

However, when you look deeper....
-Kyle Anderson (already agreed to terms) was likely to fill one of those spots, either starting PF or sixth man).
-Beverley was unlikely to remain in starting lineup due to age, health and Jaden McDaniels waiting in the wings.
-Beasley played a big role off the bench, but Nowell was waiting in the wings.

All three players were unlikely to keep their same value. They were great for us last season, but the sustainability was a low probability for where we are trying to go. I'm not sure their values could get any higher.

If we are just comparing the individual pieces in the trade from at the time of the trade, I'm fine with people believing we lost value. However, McDaniels' development, Nowell's development and Anderson's signing are big pieces that to me allowed us to shift the balance of the power structure of the roster. Those are three key role players to fill in for the role players lost in the trade.

I haven't even gotten into the other vets such as Bryn Forbes, Austin Rivers or the resigning of Taurean Prince to help fill in the gaps.

I remember that when Beverley extension was announced I immediately felt like it was kind of workaround, patch. That extension was one year overpaid contract, and while Beverley was an ideal fit skillswise, I did not see how his value and impact will be bigger after one more season. Pat had one of the best career year for instance in terms of playmaking, but he also showed signs of age, he missed games. Same with Beasley. It is very questionable way to improve team if we just re-sign all our players. That roster had successful season, but also had some objective limits, for instance size. I am still very surprised that TC made this bold move.

I am not. Look around the west right now. The Nuggets and Clippers are both lethal when healthy. The Warriors getting Klay some more distance from his missed time and getting Wiseman back won’t hurt. Memphis is full of young talent getting older and therefore more likely to be better. Standing still was a great way to fall behind. The surprise was that the move cost as much as it did. Drop a pick and a swap and I think you would be in reasonable territory. But we overpaid because we knew we needed to go boldly forward for ticket sales and national attention, as well as to keep advancing in the standings.

[KGdaBom]

It's almost comical how well Connelly recouped the depth lost in the Gobert trade.

You look back at the initial thoughts and people were critical because we were trading away two starters and the 2021-22 sixth man in Beverley, Vanderbilt and Beasley.

However, when you look deeper....
-Kyle Anderson (already agreed to terms) was likely to fill one of those spots, either starting PF or sixth man).
-Beverley was unlikely to remain in starting lineup due to age, health and Jaden McDaniels waiting in the wings.
-Beasley played a big role off the bench, but Nowell was waiting in the wings.

All three players were unlikely to keep their same value. They were great for us last season, but the sustainability was a low probability for where we are trying to go. I'm not sure their values could get any higher.

If we are just comparing the individual pieces in the trade from at the time of the trade, I'm fine with people believing we lost value. However, McDaniels' development, Nowell's development and Anderson's signing are big pieces that to me allowed us to shift the balance of the power structure of the roster. Those are three key role players to fill in for the role players lost in the trade.

I haven't even gotten into the other vets such as Bryn Forbes, Austin Rivers or the resigning of Taurean Prince to help fill in the gaps.

I remember that when Beverley extension was announced I immediately felt like it was kind of workaround, patch. That extension was one year overpaid contract, and while Beverley was an ideal fit skillswise, I did not see how his value and impact will be bigger after one more season. Pat had one of the best career year for instance in terms of playmaking, but he also showed signs of age, he missed games. Same with Beasley. It is very questionable way to improve team if we just re-sign all our players. That roster had successful season, but also had some objective limits, for instance size. I am still very surprised that TC made this bold move.

I am not. Look around the west right now. The Nuggets and Clippers are both lethal when healthy. The Warriors getting Klay some more distance from his missed time and getting Wiseman back won’t hurt. Memphis is full of young talent getting older and therefore more likely to be better. Standing still was a great way to fall behind. The surprise was that the move cost as much as it did. Drop a pick and a swap and I think you would be in reasonable territory. But we overpaid because we knew we needed to go boldly forward for ticket sales and national attention, as well as to keep advancing in the standings.

I see no overpay whatsoever.

[winforlose]

I remember that when Beverley extension was announced I immediately felt like it was kind of workaround, patch. That extension was one year overpaid contract, and while Beverley was an ideal fit skillswise, I did not see how his value and impact will be bigger after one more season. Pat had one of the best career year for instance in terms of playmaking, but he also showed signs of age, he missed games. Same with Beasley. It is very questionable way to improve team if we just re-sign all our players. That roster had successful season, but also had some objective limits, for instance size. I am still very surprised that TC made this bold move.

I am not. Look around the west right now. The Nuggets and Clippers are both lethal when healthy. The Warriors getting Klay some more distance from his missed time and getting Wiseman back won’t hurt. Memphis is full of young talent getting older and therefore more likely to be better. Standing still was a great way to fall behind. The surprise was that the move cost as much as it did. Drop a pick and a swap and I think you would be in reasonable territory. But we overpaid because we knew we needed to go boldly forward for ticket sales and national attention, as well as to keep advancing in the standings.

I see no overpay whatsoever.

Relative to other moves it was. In theory Rudy is every bit the impact player of PG or AD, but in practice the actual cost for him should be a bit lower (because other teams won’t pay as much for a defensive equivalent.) If you still disagree, (and I assume you do,) find me some similar trades you think establish this as correct value (kinda like comps on home values.)

[KGdaBom]

I am not. Look around the west right now. The Nuggets and Clippers are both lethal when healthy. The Warriors getting Klay some more distance from his missed time and getting Wiseman back won’t hurt. Memphis is full of young talent getting older and therefore more likely to be better. Standing still was a great way to fall behind. The surprise was that the move cost as much as it did. Drop a pick and a swap and I think you would be in reasonable territory. But we overpaid because we knew we needed to go boldly forward for ticket sales and national attention, as well as to keep advancing in the standings.

I see no overpay whatsoever.

Relative to other moves it was. In theory Rudy is every bit the impact player of PG or AD, but in practice the actual cost for him should be a bit lower (because other teams won’t pay as much for a defensive equivalent.) If you still disagree, (and I assume you do,) find me some similar trades you think establish this as correct value (kinda like comps on home values.)

My opinion. That's all we can give on this. It can't be proven. Rudy is arguably the greatest defender to ever play the game. We gave a lot of draft picks, but no player of significant value. To me that is not an overpay. If you see it as an overpay that is your prerogative.

[karch34]

It’s a lot of picks and lot of players. Value of any of those picks is TBD but don’t feel any is likely to be premium but who knows. That’s similar to any of the recent trades for stars. I like Bev, Vando, and Beas but I don’t see the SGA, Ingram, etc which makes me believe it’s not an overpay. Two less firsts but we give up Jaden? Maybe better on paper when just looking at picks but I’d rather keep him.

[winforlose]

It’s a lot of picks and lot of players. Value of any of those picks is TBD but don’t feel any is likely to be premium but who knows. That’s similar to any of the recent trades for stars. I like Bev, Vando, and Beas but I don’t see the SGA, Ingram, etc which makes me believe it’s not an overpay. Two less firsts but we give up Jaden? Maybe better on paper when just looking at picks but I’d rather keep him.

If DJM (at 26 years old,) is worth 3 total picks (2 unprotected,) and Gallo, than was Rudy really worth more than 3 unprotected V8, Kessler, Lea, Beasley, and Beverly? Nothing against Rudy, he is elite without question, but the market was moved by the Rudy trade. I think if it wasn’t Ainge we might have kept the 2029 and the 26 pick swap. Or maybe given up 29 pick with better protections and kept V8. Again, Rudy was THE guy I wanted for us, I just think we overpaid slightly. But again, winning a title or at least going to the NBA finals would be worth the overpay, and I think Rudy gets us there if we stay healthy.

[frankenwolf]

It’s a lot of picks and lot of players. Value of any of those picks is TBD but don’t feel any is likely to be premium but who knows. That’s similar to any of the recent trades for stars. I like Bev, Vando, and Beas but I don’t see the SGA, Ingram, etc which makes me believe it’s not an overpay. Two less firsts but we give up Jaden? Maybe better on paper when just looking at picks but I’d rather keep him.

If DJM (at 26 years old,) is worth 3 total picks (2 unprotected,) and Gallo, than was Rudy really worth more than 3 unprotected V8, Kessler, Lea, Beasley, and Beverly? Nothing against Rudy, he is elite without question, but the market was moved by the Rudy trade. I think if it wasn’t Ainge we might have kept the 2029 and the 26 pick swap. Or maybe given up 29 pick with better protections and kept V8. Again, Rudy was THE guy I wanted for us, I just think we overpaid slightly. But again, winning a title or at least going to the NBA finals would be worth the overpay, and I think Rudy gets us there if we stay healthy.

If you are TC and you 100% believe this will make your team a top 5/championship team, why not trade those picks? If you, as the GM, are right and spend the next 5 years in the top 5 teams of the league, you have traded away, at best, a #27 pick in each of those years. In 2026, there won't be a pick swap, unless the Jazz are better than us (highly doubtful). 2029, If, by some terrible circumstance, we are one of the bottom 5 teams, our pick is protected for that spot. Let me ask you, do you think that KAT & Ant are going to be terrible or gone by 2029? Or is Ant & Jaden gearing up for one, two, three, more championships??

[winforlose]

It’s a lot of picks and lot of players. Value of any of those picks is TBD but don’t feel any is likely to be premium but who knows. That’s similar to any of the recent trades for stars. I like Bev, Vando, and Beas but I don’t see the SGA, Ingram, etc which makes me believe it’s not an overpay. Two less firsts but we give up Jaden? Maybe better on paper when just looking at picks but I’d rather keep him.

If DJM (at 26 years old,) is worth 3 total picks (2 unprotected,) and Gallo, than was Rudy really worth more than 3 unprotected V8, Kessler, Lea, Beasley, and Beverly? Nothing against Rudy, he is elite without question, but the market was moved by the Rudy trade. I think if it wasn’t Ainge we might have kept the 2029 and the 26 pick swap. Or maybe given up 29 pick with better protections and kept V8. Again, Rudy was THE guy I wanted for us, I just think we overpaid slightly. But again, winning a title or at least going to the NBA finals would be worth the overpay, and I think Rudy gets us there if we stay healthy.

If you are TC and you 100% believe this will make your team a top 5/championship team, why not trade those picks? If you, as the GM, are right and spend the next 5 years in the top 5 teams of the league, you have traded away, at best, a #27 pick in each of those years. In 2026, there won't be a pick swap, unless the Jazz are better than us (highly doubtful). 2029, If, by some terrible circumstance, we are one of the bottom 5 teams, our pick is protected for that spot. Let me ask you, do you think that KAT & Ant are going to be terrible or gone by 2029? Or is Ant & Jaden gearing up for one, two, three, more championships??

It is a balancing act. On the one hand, you badly want Rudy for what he can do for you. On the other, draft capital is valuable, and the more you spend up front the longer you have to wait to regenerate it. Having the 29 pick means your 30 pick is available to move as well. A lot depends on the free agents who come to us, and how well we draft with the picks we do have. Great talent scouting for G league and undrafted players is also a plus. The question isn’t about the move, but the minimum cost of the move vs our cost.

[Slim Tubby]

Calling someone a "role player" isn't demeaning, it just means they aren't a "star".

Don't. Just...let them do their thing.

It'll be over quicker that way.

Someone gets it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Slim Tubby]

It’s a lot of picks and lot of players. Value of any of those picks is TBD but don’t feel any is likely to be premium but who knows. That’s similar to any of the recent trades for stars. I like Bev, Vando, and Beas but I don’t see the SGA, Ingram, etc which makes me believe it’s not an overpay. Two less firsts but we give up Jaden? Maybe better on paper when just looking at picks but I’d rather keep him.

Giving two (2) picks likely to be in the 20’s to hang on to Jaden was the obvious choice.


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[KGdaBom]

Calling someone a "role player" isn't demeaning, it just means they aren't a "star".

Don't. Just...let them do their thing.

It'll be over quicker that way.

Someone gets it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The role player thing is a pet peeve of mine and I know most people don't care about it like I do.

[Slim Tubby]

Don't. Just...let them do their thing.

It'll be over quicker that way.

Someone gets it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The role player thing is a pet peeve of mine and I know most people don't care about it like I do.

It’s all good…I just felt that particular debate had run it’s course. On another note, any idea if KAT, Gobert and Russell play tonight?


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[KGdaBom]

Someone gets it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The role player thing is a pet peeve of mine and I know most people don't care about it like I do.

It’s all good…I just felt that particular debate had run it’s course. On another note, any idea if KAT, Gobert and Russell play tonight?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Without any research I'd be surprised if KAT played more than one preseason game and he possibly could miss a few games to start the season. Gobert will probably play 2 preseason games and Russell 3. We will soon find out how good my guesswork is.

[shrink]

I see no overpay whatsoever.

Relative to other moves it was. In theory Rudy is every bit the impact player of PG or AD, but in practice the actual cost for him should be a bit lower (because other teams won’t pay as much for a defensive equivalent.) If you still disagree, (and I assume you do,) find me some similar trades you think establish this as correct value (kinda like comps on home values.)

In a neutral environment, it was a clear overpay. As good as he is, most questioned whether the Jazz would even give Rudy that last max deal. We shouldn’t be surprised that most fans of other teams consider this a vast overpay, because for their teams, it would be. But the thing about economics is, we aren’t all neutral. A bottle of water might not be worth $5 at the grocery store, but I’ll pay $500 if I’m wandering in the desert, dying of thirst.

The Wolves were that team, wandering the desert. Even a developing Ant and Jaden were unlikely to make us truly competitive with some of the elite teams. Moreover, there weren’t other grocery stores in that desert, who had different alternative types of water we needed. We wanted to add a Top 25 talent, who could help our biggest weaknesses in defense and rebound, who was even available for a trade, AND that guy probably had to want to come to Minnesota, so that star wouldn’t just immediately want to be traded again?

If you ask me, there was one bottle of water to save us from the desert, and Danny Ainge didn’t need to sell it, so he could ask for a big overpay from perhaps the one team that needed Gobert most. However, even though the Jazz won the trade for their goals, it’s quite possible that we won the trade to, to match our goals. We paid more than market - the future will decide if we paid too much for us.

[Klomp]

When taking about all of the 1sts and pseudo-1sts we gave up, just keep in mind that one of those pseudo-1sts Bolmaro is not a lock to make the Utah roster.

[winforlose]

When taking about all of the 1sts and pseudo-1sts we gave up, just keep in mind that one of those pseudo-1sts Bolmaro is not a lock to make the Utah roster.

I asked the Jazz board about that and haven’t seen a response yet. It would surprise me if he did.

[Rauxcee]

When taking about all of the 1sts and pseudo-1sts we gave up, just keep in mind that one of those pseudo-1sts Bolmaro is not a lock to make the Utah roster.

I asked the Jazz board about that and haven’t seen a response yet. It would surprise me if he did.

Our board is dead, and honestly I'm not sure anyone knows. Our roster is still kind of a mess and I'm not sure what the Jazz want to assemble going forward. That said he's young talent and I think they'll find away to keep him just I'm case.

[Nick K]

It's almost comical how well Connelly recouped the depth lost in the Gobert trade.

You look back at the initial thoughts and people were critical because we were trading away two starters and the 2021-22 sixth man in Beverley, Vanderbilt and Beasley.

I agree, and the hardest thing for a good talent evaluator to do is to find minutes for all his good acquisitions.

Yes, we traded 5 players for Gobert, but that consolidation trade creates opportunity to get more out of talented players the Wolves found, who were limited in impact solely because better players were ahead of them.

God-darn-it Shrink.....that just makes too much sense! "It's called addition by subtraction"

I am overjoyed by this trade. It is "bold and visionary". Simply put, we are going to kick-ass because of it!