College players thread/ Draft Related thread

[Zeitgeister]

Here is what we know about Griffin, he has shown the desire to improve other parts of his game dramatically (although that isn't a guarantee that he will improve his defense), he has all of the physical tools that you would want in a power forward defensively, and he's an intelligent player. When you look at those things, Griffin has the potential to be an excellent defender.

He has far more defensive potential then someone like Al Jefferson or Kevin Love do because of his physical gifts. Also, to make comparisons to players like Boozer or Amare who don't play good defense doesn't automatically conclude that Griffin will be a bad defender as well. Griffin has the talent to become a great defender, and he's shown the committment to improve other areas of the game so I would say there is a better chance of him becoming a very good defender then not.

[Rakocevicftw]

Al Jefferson. Carlos Boozer. Antonio McDyess. You can make arguments, but you don't have a crystal ball.

The only one of those three who is actually a bad defender is Jefferson. McDyess, before and after his knee injuries, was a good defender. But it's certainly bizarre to compare Griffin to a post-injury McDyess.

It's even more bizarre to compare him to Boozer. I didn't realize 'Los had a 40 inch vert!

[Klomp]

GO NDSU!

[deeney0]

If you can't distinguish between "hasn't happened yet" and "need a crystal ball", you can pretty much "argue" whatever you want.

Says the man who can't distinguish between "informed" and "unbelievably, irritatingly arrogant".

[Jonathan Watters]

"unbelievably, irritatingly arrogant".

Nope. I'm fully aware of how arrogant I am and how irritating that must be. I'm such a jerk off, confusing you folks with the facts. What right do I have to use those facts, anyways?

I may be "irritatingly arrogant", but at least I'm not "willfully misinformed".

[B Calrissian]

Al Jefferson. Carlos Boozer. Antonio McDyess. You can make arguments, but you don't have a crystal ball.

The only one of those three who is actually a bad defender is Jefferson. McDyess, before and after his knee injuries, was a good defender. But it's certainly bizarre to compare Griffin to a post-injury McDyess.

It's even more bizarre to compare him to Boozer. I didn't realize 'Los had a 40 inch vert!

Boozer is a bad defender. And not one of those three guys have 40 inch vert..

[big3_8_19_21]

"unbelievably, irritatingly arrogant".

Nope. I'm fully aware of how arrogant I am and how irritating that must be. I'm such a jerk off, confusing you folks with the facts. What right do I have to use those facts, anyways?

I may be "irritatingly arrogant", but at least I'm not "willfully misinformed".

Reading your past posts I know you'll just blow me off, because who am I to talk to the mighty Jonathan Watters, but I figured I would back deeney on this one. We all understand that you are very informed (more informed than any of us since it IS your job), and yes, you provide good examples and facts to support your opinions, but you absolutely adamantly REFUSE to believe that anyone else can have a differing opinion about a player and you will put that poster down for having that opinion. A lot of the time you are "unbelievably, irritatingly arrogant." This is coming from someone who has not once had a quarrel with you over a prospect. You could simply say something like, "I disagree and here is why..." but instead your responses are more like "You're wrong and stupid for ever thinking that, you (Please Use More Appropriate Word). I'm better and smarter than all of you and I need all of you to know that." You hate us so much and yet keep coming back apparently only to insult us. Why? I have no idea.

[invno1]

If the timberwolves need me to put the team together...all it will take is a call and a deposit'

[jgozalb]

Couple news on Ricky:

1.- He has been recently named DPOY 2008. Its the first time this award is being given.

2.- His father talking to Tubasket.com:

“Sería posible que se marchase si fuese top 3 del draft, es cuestión de hacer números. Será una decisión consensuada, pero depende de Ricky. Es un privilegiado por la cabeza que tiene. Nos escucha a todos, y luego ya decidirá”.

Esteve Rubio
Padre de Ricky Rubio

"It would be possible for him to go if he is a TOP-3, it's a matter of numbers (money). It's a decision that we will all take toguether, but it depends on Ricky. He is a very wise man. He will listen to all of us, and then he will decide"

Esteve Rubio
Ricky Rubio's father.

[Devilzsidewalk]

Too bad we both know that Griffin vs Rubio isn't what I'm ridiculing you about. But keep trying to swing the discussion into something that doesn't make you look like a complete fool.

If Blake Griffin proves to be a questionable defender with questionable BBIQ, then and only then do you have me.

If he doesn't ( he won't) you can count on me being here to make fun of you until the day he retires.

So please, keep it up. I'm having a blast...

But John, it IS about Rubio vs Griffin, this is where your blind rage clouds your judgment, I've always been talking about Griffin having more questions than Rubio - that's my position. It's also my position that it's close enough that if somebody were to say "no, Rubio has more questions about his NBA potential than Griffin", that I wouldn't argue one bit.

Questionable means those are things he hasn't satisfactorily answered yet. It doesn't mean he won't do it or can't do it, it means there's a lingering question as in I don't think someone could state for sure if he can do it.

If he becomes an amazing defender, then he will have answered that question very definitively and I invite you whole-heartedly to make fun of me until the day he retires. You'll be a hero

[john2jer]

Since it seems most of the college scouting services have annoited Griffin as such an obvious first pick that they've decided to completely stop scouting him, most everything out there about him is old unfortunately. I've had the joy of watching a few of his games this year, unfortunately the last time was when I was truck shopping and got distracted by the game being on in the lounge area.

He's VERY physical on the offensive end and when rebounding. There is the knock on him being physical on the defensive end in order to avoid fouls. It's quite possible to be physical on the defensive end and still stay out of foul trouble. That'll be the area he needs to work on. On defense it's about leverage and holding strong when being physical. On the offensive end its about being a bully and powerful. Different ways of being physical depending on which end of the court you're playing.

But as I've said, and many others, he's shown the desire to get better, so I fully expect this to improve throughout his career. If only he were 3-4 inches taller and a better shot blocker, then he'd be perfect for the Wolves.

[Worm Guts]

If he were 4 inches taller, he'd be the best center prospect since Shaq.

[revprodeji]

If Craig smith was 4 inches taller he would be shaq.

[Worm Guts]

Not really, but the point is the same. 4 inches is a huge difference to any player.

[john2jer]

I'm going to pretend that you both caught that. Good job.

[Jonathan Watters]

"unbelievably, irritatingly arrogant".

Nope. I'm fully aware of how arrogant I am and how irritating that must be. I'm such a jerk off, confusing you folks with the facts. What right do I have to use those facts, anyways?

I may be "irritatingly arrogant", but at least I'm not "willfully misinformed".

Reading your past posts I know you'll just blow me off, because who am I to talk to the mighty Jonathan Watters, but I figured I would back deeney on this one. We all understand that you are very informed (more informed than any of us since it IS your job), and yes, you provide good examples and facts to support your opinions, but you absolutely adamantly REFUSE to believe that anyone else can have a differing opinion about a player and you will put that poster down for having that opinion. A lot of the time you are "unbelievably, irritatingly arrogant." This is coming from someone who has not once had a quarrel with you over a prospect.

You could simply say something like, "I disagree and here is why..." but instead your responses are more like "You're wrong and stupid for ever thinking that, you (Please Use More Appropriate Word). I'm better and smarter than all of you and I need all of you to know that." You hate us so much and yet keep coming back apparently only to insult us. Why? I have no idea.

And people could say what you have said above, instead of telling me that I'm a blind hater because I don't buy their pro-current T'Wolves arguments that they back up with that day's humidity readings.

And for the record, the reason I'm coming here is that I'm not doing the scouting thing anymore but I still love to talk about the game. I enjoy the challenge of defending my opinion, and the occasional spirited debate. And, the folks around here are particularly fun to have a spirited debate with. Eventually they will realize that it is extremely rare for me to turn militant about something if the person I'm arguing with isn't dead wrong. I'm not saying it will never happen, but the odds are extremely in my favor if I start in something the way I have on the Love trade/Brewer/Telfair/Griffin.

[Jonathan Watters]

But John, it IS about Rubio vs Griffin, this is where your blind rage clouds your judgment, I've always been talking about Griffin having more questions than Rubio - that's my position. It's also my position that it's close enough that if somebody were to say "no, Rubio has more questions about his NBA potential than Griffin", that I wouldn't argue one bit.

No, it isn't. I've never stated a single opinion about Rubio on this thread, other than to say I haven't seen him enough to formulate an opinion.

I began to ridicule you when you made mention of Griffin's BBIQ and defensive issues. Never said a word about Rubio. I would never ridicule you about your opinion that Rubio is the better prospect, due my not having seen him enough to formulate an opinion. This is something I would never in a million years do. I have my opinions on the subject, but they are very early opinions that won't be discussed around here for quite some time because they are incomplete and somewhat biased toward the player I have seen enough to evaluate properly.

What I can do is tell you that your phantom issues about Griffin are exactly that. Which is what I did. Amazing, isn't it?

And this is the problem I have with the folks around here. It isn't about reality. It isn't about looking at the information we have and coming to an informed conclusion. It is to continue arguing even when you know you are wrong, even if it means completely changing the argument. Has the legitimacy of such a tactic ever even crossed your mind, or did you just jump right off the ledge?

Questionable means those are things he hasn't satisfactorily answered yet. It doesn't mean he won't do it or can't do it, it means there's a lingering question as in I don't think someone could state for sure if he can do it.

There's absolutely no reason to believe Griffin won't be an above average defender in the NBA. Zero. This comes from years of scouting NBA prospects in a consistent, systematic manner. If Griffin can't be projected as a lock above average defender, we might as well stop trying to predict anything about the draft. I happen to believe he has a very good chance to be better than just "above average". But "above average" would be his floor.

And this completely ignores your "BBIQ" comment, which is even more ridiculous. Convenient how the discussion has veered away from that. I'm not going to let you forget about it, though.

If he becomes an amazing defender, then he will have answered that question very definitively and I invite you whole-heartedly to make fun of me until the day he retires. You'll be a hero

No, but I'll be right. And I will be right.

[Jonathan Watters]

He's VERY physical on the offensive end and when rebounding. There is the knock on him being physical on the defensive end in order to avoid fouls. It's quite possible to be physical on the defensive end and still stay out of foul trouble. That'll be the area he needs to work on. On defense it's about leverage and holding strong when being physical. On the offensive end its about being a bully and powerful. Different ways of being physical depending on which end of the court you're playing.

Did it ever cross your mind that he could be doing this because he's so important to Oklahoma's success that he can't risk getting into foul trouble? These are the things that you might not be thinking about, but are extremely important to the people actually involved with the game.

Brook Lopez appeared to be a horrific shooter last year. People blasted him for it, completely ignoring the situational reality that he had more responsibility within his team's offense than any legit 7-footer prospect in recent history. Now I wasn't out there arguing that he'd be shooting 52% from the field this year, as that would be similarly absurd. What I did know is that Lopez' FG% wasn't something that should be used to define a projection of his NBA future. We didn't really know what that number was telling us.

The same thing is true with Griffin. The guy knows he needs to stay on the floor at all costs. He's got every tool to be a great defender at any level.

But as I've said, and many others, he's shown the desire to get better, so I fully expect this to improve throughout his career. If only he were 3-4 inches taller and a better shot blocker, then he'd be perfect for the Wolves.

And you still come to the only rational conclusion that can be arrived at. Griffin's defense isn't an "issue" in any sort of traditional sense of the word. Maybe not as strong as it could be, should be, or will be, but that doesn't make it an issue. Things are much more complex than that.

[PeeDee]

I know we're always harping about taking the BPA over need and I agree. But just for fun, anyone want to try ranking the prospects based on fit? (Plus it's an easy way to make this thread fun again)

I'll start:

1.) Rubio
2.) Thabeet
3.) Aminu
4.) Evans
5.) Curry
6.) Jennings?
7.) Holiday?
8.) Aldrich
9.) Turner
10.) Clark

That's kind of hard. I don't even know if I believe my own rankings, lol.

[Jonathan Watters]

I actually think Thabeet is a pretty good value in this draft. His size and athleticism really do dwarf the other issues with his game, even though there are plenty of those. He dominates a game simply by running up and down the court, and that is something you can take to the bank in the NBA as well, at least to a certain extent. I don't think you pass on that to draft Stephen Curry or Jordan Hill.