Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[shrink]

I also wanted to mention that I don’t think it’s realistic to bench DLo or Ant, or have an undefined starter rotation where you simply play the best matchup.

First, most players hate it. They want a defined role. They sign contracts with teams expecting that role. If forced to the bench, their numbers and perception may drop, and that hurts their career.

Second, higher money players often carry more sway in the locker room, because they are generally talented vets. An unhappy locker room is a real thing.

Third, it’s bad for the front office. First, they don’t like admitting mistakes. But more importantly, if a player loses production and perception, his trade value decreases as well. If a team has a promising young player that deserves playing time, the wiser course of action is to pump minutes into the vet to boost his trade value, trade him, and then move the cheap player into the starting line up.

Last year with DLo is a good example. When MIN brought in Rubio, Russell was pissed. He didn’t want the ball taken out of his hands, which is Rubio’s greatest strength. When the Russell-Rubio numbers got too horrible to ignore, Flip Saunders was force to give Russell the ball, cut Rubio’s minutes, and when they played together, put Ricky out to the three point line. When Russell got hurt, Rubio (and the team) did much better in his natural role. Finch was able to get DLo to come off the bench initially, under the excuse (that wouldn’t hurt his career) that he was “playing himself back into shape.” I imagine Finch also told DLo “If you shut up for these last games, I guarantee you the starting job next year, and we’ll trade Rubio with his value pumped up.”

[winforlose]

I also wanted to mention that I don’t think it’s realistic to bench DLo or Ant, or have an undefined starter rotation where you simply play the best matchup.

First, most players hate it. They want a defined role. They sign contracts with teams expecting that role. If forced to the bench, their numbers and perception may drop, and that hurts their career.

Second, higher money players often carry more sway in the locker room, because they are generally talented vets. An unhappy locker room is a real thing.

Third, it’s bad for the front office. First, they don’t like admitting mistakes. But more importantly, if a player loses production and perception, his trade value decreases as well. If a team has a promising young player that deserves playing time, the wiser course of action is to pump minutes into the vet to boost his trade value, trade him, and then move the cheap player into the starting line up.

Last year with DLo is a good example. When MIN brought in Rubio, Russell was pissed. He didn’t want the ball taken out of his hands, which is Rubio’s greatest strength. When the Russell-Rubio numbers got too horrible to ignore, Flip Saunders was force to give Russell the ball, cut Rubio’s minutes, and when they played together, put Ricky out to the three point line. When Russell got hurt, Rubio (and the team) did much better in his natural role. Finch was able to get DLo to come off the bench initially, under the excuse (that wouldn’t hurt his career) that he was “playing himself back into shape.” I imagine Finch also told DLo “If you shut up for these last games, I guarantee you the starting job next year, and we’ll trade Rubio with his value pumped up.”

If it’s okay I would like to respond to both your posts here.

1. Beverly this season has been better off the dribble than Dlo. Dlo is a better passer, but also takes a ton of shots and is not looking to pass often enough. Bev is a legit PG in that he can get past the first defender and has shown an ability to kick out afterward to the right player. That said, even if Dlo is the better PG, Bev is the better player until Dlo fixes his shot.

2. I agree that Dlo might be pissed, but he also needs to understand he is a liability when he shoots below 40% from the field and below 30% from the 3. We already have him play with the second unit and I think despite his money he has proven he isn’t starting quality on off shooting nights.

Meanwhile, V8 has proven indispensable and KAT is more than just our only competent big, he is our best player by leaps and bounds over Ant. With Bev as the key to our defense, V8 as the key to our rebounding, and KAT as the key to our offense that only leaves Ant or Dlo. Ant has more upside and less experience leading the second unit than Dlo.

3. What makes the locker room happier, missing the playoffs because we lost most of our KAT free games, or winning games and making the playoffs with a legit 20/10 big beside KAT who can carry the slack when KAT is out and having an unhappy Dlo coming off the bench?

[shrink]

I’m just curious - would anyone entertain an Edwards - Tatum swap?

My knee-jerk reaction was no, but he’s young, All-NBA, and locked into a longterm deal.

Maybe my knee-jerk is still right, but I’m curious what my Wolves-fam thinks?

[moss_is_1]

I’m just curious - would anyone entertain an Edwards - Tatum swap?

My knee-jerk reaction was no, but he’s young, All-NBA, and locked into a longterm deal.

Maybe my knee-jerk is still right, but I’m curious what my Wolves-fam thinks?

I think we would have to, I'm not sure why Boston would though?

[minimus]

I’m just curious - would anyone entertain an Edwards - Tatum swap?

My knee-jerk reaction was no, but he’s young, All-NBA, and locked into a longterm deal.

Maybe my knee-jerk is still right, but I’m curious what my Wolves-fam thinks?

I wonder if BOS lethargic offence is because of Tatum lack of creativity with the ball and lack of elite slashing skills. So I see BOS value these two particular skills of Edwards. For us, Tatum-Edwards trade would completely transform us into shooting first team. While I am intrigued by wing size in this scenario, we will lose a lot of athleticism in backcourt.

[old school 34]

I’m just curious - would anyone entertain an Edwards - Tatum swap?

My knee-jerk reaction was no, but he’s young, All-NBA, and locked into a longterm deal.

Maybe my knee-jerk is still right, but I’m curious what my Wolves-fam thinks?

I wonder if BOS lethargic offence is because of Tatum lack of creativity with the ball and lack of elite slashing skills. So I see BOS value these two particular skills of Edwards. For us, Tatum-Edwards trade would completely transform us into shooting first team. While I am intrigued by wing size in this scenario, we will lose a lot of athleticism in backcourt.

No deal for me....Tatum--there's definitely a lot to like & while longer...then, we'd really have no one that could get all the way to the rim...& for that more team fit reason...I guess that would be the deal breaker for me?

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[old school 34]

What we trade FOR is a question for me as well. I wrote this on the Trade Board a few days ago.

Chris Finch is definitely running a balancing act. I had assumed this year when MIN acquired Beverley that he would be the third guard while 3P-starved MIN started Beasley with DLo. Beverly though has provided Finch a two-way player that allows DLo to guard the weaker guard threat, and they have great two-man numbers (+23.9 in 283 minutes). Beasley gets relegated to third guard, unless there is a specific need for playmaking (Jaylen Nowell) or defense (Josh Okogie). Finch also walks that fine line at PF. They got Vanderbilt to sign for back-up money, so financially he could be a back up. I expected for many months that MIN would find a starting PF that could score and spread the floor to prevent KAT from being doubled by both bigs. However, what Vando takes away spreading the floor, he makes up for with extra possessions on offensive rebounds, and his defense has been great again this year.

Chris Finch has produced a starting five with a 138.0, OFF Rtg, and a 88.4 DEF Rtg. That’s an astonishing 49.6 NET Rtg in 127 minutes. These players individually have warts, and bringing in someone like Harrison Barnes would raise the individual talent level of the position. But would the team decline if we pushed Vando to the bench, and ruin whatever alchemy Finch has discovered? Or do we make smaller trades to improve our bench, and see if we can get all five back again to see if they can replicate what they’ve done?

The way forward is no longer so clear to me.

Pat Bev has a career of not being an effective player in playoff situations, thats why his teams have looked to upgrade him even though he is an easy fit in pretty much any lineup

players like Vanderbilt have struggled to get on the court in playoff games for what, 8+ years?

the success of the lineup shows that ANT/KAT/Russell with two defensive minded players can be strong lineup, but not looking to improve it would be ignoring a lot of recent history of what works in the highest levels of NBA basketball

Russell/KAT/ANT with two combo forward types would be my ideal so that opposing teams that have smallish guards/wings would have tough matchup, its too bad Prince and McDaniels have played so poorly to feel comfortable with one of them filling one of those roles

That's kind of the quandary, right? How far do you leap this year &/or learn more about who you really have?

Some of the bigger names definitely get all of us excited but do we really have the assets to pull that off &/or how expensive does the draft asset package need to be to make up the difference?

Here's a 3-teamer that I feel good about...more of a margins trade, but something that I feel keeps us trending the right direction & maybe kind of walking that line of us growing in a more linear path?

Cha gets C. Woods for Washington/Plumlee/FFRP

Hou gets Plumlee/FFRP/Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO for Woods/Gordon/Theis

Min gets Washington/Gordon/Theis for Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO

Charlotte gets their starting C @ a pretty reasonable price.

Houston moves vets for younger guys, picks, expirings, &/or save years on contracts.

Min gets bigger...do get a little older, but not sure that's a bad thing & gives this core roster more time to see what you for sure got? I really like a PF rotation of PJ & V8. Theis is reliable & probably more trustworthy come playoff time than Naz (& how much does he cost next year?). Gordon while older than Beas...definitely offers more--better IQ, defensively, & can playmake a little.

Oh yeah, JO in or out...just played with that as a way to just reduce any draft compensation (which I didn't list, but would assume we'd need to kick a little Hou's way as well).

Thoughts?

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[shrink]

Cha gets C. Woods for Washington/Plumlee/FFRP

Hou gets Plumlee/FFRP/Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO for Woods/Gordon/Theis

Min gets Washington/Gordon/Theis for Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO

Charlotte gets their starting C @ a pretty reasonable price.

Houston moves vets for younger guys, picks, expirings, &/or save years on contracts.

Min gets bigger...do get a little older, but not sure that's a bad thing & gives this core roster more time to see what you for sure got? I really like a PF rotation of PJ & V8. Theis is reliable & probably more trustworthy come playoff time than Naz (& how much does he cost next year?). Gordon while older than Beas...definitely offers more--better IQ, defensively, & can playmake a little.

I like this a lot, for all three teams. I think this makes us better for the playoffs. I am not sure we’d even owe HOU any draft compensation, since they are getting off a lot of longterm money. Nice trade!

[Godaddycurse]

Cha gets C. Woods for Washington/Plumlee/FFRP

Hou gets Plumlee/FFRP/Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO for Woods/Gordon/Theis

Min gets Washington/Gordon/Theis for Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO

Charlotte gets their starting C @ a pretty reasonable price.

Houston moves vets for younger guys, picks, expirings, &/or save years on contracts.

Min gets bigger...do get a little older, but not sure that's a bad thing & gives this core roster more time to see what you for sure got? I really like a PF rotation of PJ & V8. Theis is reliable & probably more trustworthy come playoff time than Naz (& how much does he cost next year?). Gordon while older than Beas...definitely offers more--better IQ, defensively, & can playmake a little.

I like this a lot, for all three teams. I think this makes us better for the playoffs. I am not sure we’d even owe HOU any draft compensation, since they are getting off a lot of longterm money. Nice trade!

I think Houston just deals directly w/ Charlotte and cut minnesota out. They have a few C prospects and SG prospects already so Naz/Bolmaro is redundant. Washington fits their team better imo.

[shrink]

Cha gets C. Woods for Washington/Plumlee/FFRP

Hou gets Plumlee/FFRP/Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO for Woods/Gordon/Theis

Min gets Washington/Gordon/Theis for Beasley/Prince/Naz/Leo &/or JO

Charlotte gets their starting C @ a pretty reasonable price.

Houston moves vets for younger guys, picks, expirings, &/or save years on contracts.

Min gets bigger...do get a little older, but not sure that's a bad thing & gives this core roster more time to see what you for sure got? I really like a PF rotation of PJ & V8. Theis is reliable & probably more trustworthy come playoff time than Naz (& how much does he cost next year?). Gordon while older than Beas...definitely offers more--better IQ, defensively, & can playmake a little.

I like this a lot, for all three teams. I think this makes us better for the playoffs. I am not sure we’d even owe HOU any draft compensation, since they are getting off a lot of longterm money. Nice trade!

I think Houston just deals directly w/ Charlotte and cut minnesota out. They have a few C prospects and SG prospects already so Naz/Bolmaro is redundant. Washington fits their team better imo.

For HOU, I think MIN’s role is to dump the money of older players. I parse this up as Beasley and Prince (exp) for Gordon and Theis. Gordon is playing better than Beasley so far (not sure that’s a good thing for HOU), but he isn’t worth $18.2 and $19.6 on a 33 year old player. I think they’d much prefer the cheaper Beasley next year, who just turned 25. Theis is 29, and on the books for four years at $9 mil each. I like him, but that’s a lot for a back up center, and his numbers are down this year - I think getting an expiring for him would be positive as well. They are playing for the future, and I imagine they’d prefer Beasley at $15.4 vs Gordon + Theis at $28.3.

I hear what you’re saying on the rest - maybe Bolmaro/Naz vs PJ is not the best fit, but I think the money they get off of makes it fly.

[Klomp]

That's kind of the quandary, right? How far do you leap this year &/or learn more about who you really have?

Some of the bigger names definitely get all of us excited but do we really have the assets to pull that off &/or how expensive does the draft asset package need to be to make up the difference?

Not only that, but how will subtracting in one area affect the team dynamic? We talk about adding, but there will inevitably be a subtraction involved as well. What's the happy medium?

[Klomp]

Keep in mind with someone like Wood.....he's going into his contract year. If acquiring him, we need to be damn sure we're resigning him.

[old school 34]

I like this a lot, for all three teams. I think this makes us better for the playoffs. I am not sure we’d even owe HOU any draft compensation, since they are getting off a lot of longterm money. Nice trade!

I think Houston just deals directly w/ Charlotte and cut minnesota out. They have a few C prospects and SG prospects already so Naz/Bolmaro is redundant. Washington fits their team better imo.

For HOU, I think MIN’s role is to dump the money of older players. I parse this up as Beasley and Prince (exp) for Gordon and Theis. Gordon is playing better than Beasley so far (not sure that’s a good thing for HOU), but he isn’t worth $18.2 and $19.6 on a 33 year old player. I think they’d much prefer the cheaper Beasley next year, who just turned 25. Theis is 29, and on the books for four years at $9 mil each. I like him, but that’s a lot for a back up center, and his numbers are down this year - I think getting an expiring for him would be positive as well. They are playing for the future, and I imagine they’d prefer Beasley at $15.4 vs Gordon + Theis at $28.3.

I hear what you’re saying on the rest - maybe Bolmaro/Naz vs PJ is not the best fit, but I think the money they get off of makes it fly.

And that's why even though we can really help Hou with their books (like Shrink was saying & youth movement)....we might need a little extra draft capital kicked in to them to not get cut out...was my thought.

Ultimately, aid Charlotte to get their starting C w/ some of our disposable assets vs their's for PJ in the end....& w/ that kind of as the goal....Hou & Woods seemed like the best fit for all 3 parties (vs say a deal w/ Ind & Turner)?

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[m2002brian]

[shrink]

Blech.

PatBev setting the team’s defensive tone is one of the mentally strongest players in the NBA.

And we trade him for arguably the NBA’s mentally weakest?

These are human beings, not skillsets. I can’t imagine this team’s mentality if they lost the team-first Beverly for the team-last Simmons.

[fattymcgee]

Can anyone write see this? It's a broken image for me.

[winforlose]

Can anyone write see this? It's a broken image for me.

I see it, be glad you cannot. It is offensive to the eyes and the senses.

[minimus]

Read on Twitter

Time to revise all HOU trades?

Gordon, Theis, Garuba for Beasley, Prince, Layman, top5 protected FRP, and SPR

[Neeva]

Wolves could do better things with a top 5 protected pick tbh and no Nance jr.

[winforlose]

Read on Twitter

Time to revise all HOU trades?

Gordon, Theis, Garuba for Beasley, Prince, Layman, top5 protected FRP, and SPR

I gotta have more context for what was said before I revise interest in Wood. I admit it sounds very very bad. But without context it is impossible to fully understand what caused this.