Trade Talk (Part 15): Trade Deadline Day (and onwards!)

[MN7725]

He is a legit 1rst team all defensive talent at point guard with 3 and D ability.

I think people believed that he could become that level of defensive player when he was in San Antonio, but he never really became this.

I will put it this way: we need a low profile high impact player next to Edwards, Gobert, rather than high profile, low impact guy. In other words we need Derrick White type of player, not Murray type of player.

players can change

I was a big fan of getting Aaron Gordon when he was on Orlando to play with KAT and vast majority of people would respond
"he was #4 pick, he wants to be a superstar, take shots away from KAT"

now he's one of the better complimentary players in the league

[KATKlownFeet]

Could we get anything decent for Naz Reid, someone like Trey Murphy or Herb Jones?

[m2002brian]

PJ Washington is a good example of a decent player who looks better on a contender.

Some players just don’t give the same effort when the most likely outcome is a losing season anyway. Put that same player next to AE and a winning culture and they play up to their potential.

PJ was a guy I thought about swapping Kat for. Oh well.

[shrink]

PJ Washington is a good example of a decent player who looks better on a contender.

Some players just don’t give the same effort when the most likely outcome is a losing season anyway. Put that same player next to AE and a winning culture and they play up to their potential.

PJ was a guy I thought about swapping Kat for. Oh well.

To be fair, guys like PJ Washington, Gafford and Lively look good because they have two of the NBA’s five best passers on the court, making the game easier for them. Ant has a long way to go before he’s that good a passer.

[shangrila]

I think people believed that he could become that level of defensive player when he was in San Antonio, but he never really became this.

I will put it this way: we need a low profile high impact player next to Edwards, Gobert, rather than high profile, low impact guy. In other words we need Derrick White type of player, not Murray type of player.

players can change

I was a big fan of getting Aaron Gordon when he was on Orlando to play with KAT and vast majority of people would respond
"he was #4 pick, he wants to be a superstar, take shots away from KAT"

now he's one of the better complimentary players in the league

I remember it differently as a pro-Gordon person myself. The main argument I heard was that he didn't shoot it well enough, which I disproved at the time and hasn't been a serious issue for Denver either.

[Klomp]

In line with my previous post, I wanted to ask you x-and-o guys a question.

Suppose we traded Gobert, and didn’t get a big back. That slides Towns back to his optimal position at center, and Naz becomes our PF, and we run a five out offense that clears driving lanes for Ant. However, KAT + Naz line ups have been horrible defensively for years. KAT comes out in drop coverage to blow up our defenses, and Naz was slow-footed and neglectful in help coverage.

My question is: Could it work going forward? KAT and Naz are both much better defensively. Towns has seen how effective drop coverage can be, watching the league’s best do it. And Naz is no longer a pudgy back up center. He has changed his body and is now a more mobile big wing. Could these two suddenly pair adequately enough on defense next year, if Gobert was traded?

I have wondered about this, especially considering Gobert is the one skill set we really have not tried to replicate anywhere up or down the roster. He is the one who stands out the most from the rest.

[Klomp]

In line with my previous post, I wanted to ask you x-and-o guys a question.

Suppose we traded Gobert, and didn’t get a big back. That slides Towns back to his optimal position at center, and Naz becomes our PF, and we run a five out offense that clears driving lanes for Ant. However, KAT + Naz line ups have been horrible defensively for years. KAT comes out in drop coverage to blow up our defenses, and Naz was slow-footed and neglectful in help coverage.

My question is: Could it work going forward? KAT and Naz are both much better defensively. Towns has seen how effective drop coverage can be, watching the league’s best do it. And Naz is no longer a pudgy back up center. He has changed his body and is now a more mobile big wing. Could these two suddenly pair adequately enough on defense next year, if Gobert was traded?

Towns can’t be an anchor.
The reason he works on Jokic is because he can focus on just man to man defense.
When he would get switched onto Gordon, and Rudy on Jokic, that’s when we saw Gordon getting lob dunks.
Because….. KAT is completely lost on defense unless he’s playing straight up man. He helps at the wrong time, from the wrong places and he rotates (or doesn’t) late or to the wrong man. If you just take a game and make you’re focus on watching KAT’s defense, you will be astounded be the amount of times he just looks completely lost out there.

We probably can't build a Top 5 defense, but we can probably build a Top 15 defense, just like we did in 2021-22.

[shrink]

players can change

I was a big fan of getting Aaron Gordon when he was on Orlando to play with KAT and vast majority of people would respond
"he was #4 pick, he wants to be a superstar, take shots away from KAT"

now he's one of the better complimentary players in the league

Good point, but I think Gordon has been exceptional to change and do all of DEN’s dirty work, and he gets credit for that. I don’t think it’s the typical course for players that are anointed as #1’s early in their career.

[BlacJacMac]

So I guess we can make trades as a below 2nd apron team through the draft?

From ESPN.

CBA impact: There are no restrictions on the Timberwolves prior to July 1. The $189.6 million second apron for next season, however, will get triggered if Minnesota takes back more money in a trade, aggregate contracts, uses its $4 million trade exception or sends out cash. The Wolves are a projected $6.6 million over the second apron. Minnesota also does not have access to the $5.1 million tax midlevel exception and cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade.

www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/40286276/nba-free-agency-2024-priorities-player-needs-30-teams-draft-outlook#min

[Klomp]

So I guess we can make trades as a below 2nd apron team through the draft?

From ESPN.

CBA impact: There are no restrictions on the Timberwolves prior to July 1. The $189.6 million second apron for next season, however, will get triggered if Minnesota takes back more money in a trade, aggregate contracts, uses its $4 million trade exception or sends out cash. The Wolves are a projected $6.6 million over the second apron. Minnesota also does not have access to the $5.1 million tax midlevel exception and cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade.

www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/40286276/nba-free-agency-2024-priorities-player-needs-30-teams-draft-outlook#min

Correct

[Klomp]

players can change

I was a big fan of getting Aaron Gordon when he was on Orlando to play with KAT and vast majority of people would respond
"he was #4 pick, he wants to be a superstar, take shots away from KAT"

now he's one of the better complimentary players in the league

Good point, but I think Gordon has been exceptional to change and do all of DEN’s dirty work, and he gets credit for that. I don’t think it’s the typical course for players that are anointed as #1’s early in their career.

You say "anointed as #1s", but I never considered Aaron Gordon in the same category as guys like Ja, Zion, Trae, LaMelo, etc. A lot of it comes down to the player's mentality and if they think they're better than someone else. I don't think Gordon ever had that kind of toxic ego, to where it can destroy a locker room. KAT has never really had that kind of ego. Ant definitely doesn't have that kind of ego. Those are the kinds of guys to target.

I don't know whether Murray has that kind of ego. I think assuming he does could be dangerous though, because it essentially puts the blame on him for it not working in Atlanta when Young has been there longer and the issues pre-date Murray's arrival.

Heck, I'll go another step and bring up your good friend and mine, Ben Simmons. Everyone wants to put him in that toxic category, but it's interesting that Philadelphia has not improved their standing one bit in the two years since trading him. Maybe he isn't so toxic after all?

[shrink]

players can change

I was a big fan of getting Aaron Gordon when he was on Orlando to play with KAT and vast majority of people would respond
"he was #4 pick, he wants to be a superstar, take shots away from KAT"

now he's one of the better complimentary players in the league

Good point, but I think Gordon has been exceptional to change and do all of DEN’s dirty work, and he gets credit for that. I don’t think it’s the typical course for players that are anointed as #1’s early in their career.

You say "anointed as #1s", but I never considered Aaron Gordon in the same category as guys like Ja, Zion, Trae, LaMelo, etc. A lot of it comes down to the player's mentality and if they think they're better than someone else. I don't think Gordon ever had that kind of toxic ego, to where it can destroy a locker room. KAT has never really had that kind of ego. Ant definitely doesn't have that kind of ego. Those are the kinds of guys to target.

I don't know whether Murray has that kind of ego. I think assuming he does could be dangerous though, because it essentially puts the blame on him for it not working in Atlanta when Young has been there longer and the issues pre-date Murray's arrival.

Heck, I'll go another step and bring up your good friend and mine, Ben Simmons. Everyone wants to put him in that toxic category, but it's interesting that Philadelphia has not improved their standing one bit in the two years since trading him. Maybe he isn't so toxic after all?

The Magic made him their #1, their first option and the face of their franchise. You’re right, there are similarities to KAT, who has also sacrificed a great deal in recent years. However, I don’t think they are commonplace, and I have my doubts that other #1’s on unsuccessful teams (like the guys you mentioned .. Trae Young, LaMelo, etc) would accept a supporting role. I think Simmons was always a #2 behind Embiid.

But you’re right. I don’t know which players would sacrifice and which wouldn’t.

[Klomp]

The Magic made him their #1, their first option and the face of their franchise. You’re right, there are similarities to KAT, who has also sacrificed a great deal in recent years. However, I don’t think they are commonplace, and I have my doubts that other #1’s on unsuccessful teams (like the guys you mentioned .. Trae Young, LaMelo, etc) would accept a supporting role. I think Simmons was always a #2 behind Embiid.

But you’re right. I don’t know which players would sacrifice and which wouldn’t.

Gordon actually had a few years to on-ramp before being "the guy" in Orlando. He didn't start in half the team's games until his third year and didn't lead the team in shot attempts until his fourth.

Your comment about Simmons is kind of my point. Simmons willingly took a step back to Embiid even though he was actually higher drafted and even higher ranked growing up. Just like Towns has willingly taken a step back to Edwards.

You are correct though that it's not commonplace, but they can absolutely be found.

[shrink]

The Magic made him their #1, their first option and the face of their franchise. You’re right, there are similarities to KAT, who has also sacrificed a great deal in recent years. However, I don’t think they are commonplace, and I have my doubts that other #1’s on unsuccessful teams (like the guys you mentioned .. Trae Young, LaMelo, etc) would accept a supporting role. I think Simmons was always a #2 behind Embiid.

But you’re right. I don’t know which players would sacrifice and which wouldn’t.

Gordon actually had a few years to on-ramp before being "the guy" in Orlando. He didn't start in half the team's games until his third year and didn't lead the team in shot attempts until his fourth.

Your comment about Simmons is kind of my point. Simmons willingly took a step back to Embiid even though he was actually higher drafted and even higher ranked growing up. Just like Towns has willingly taken a step back to Edwards.

You are correct though that it's not commonplace, but they can absolutely be found.

Thanks! I was messing up remembering those Magic teams! Vooch, Tobias Harris, Elfrid Payton .. man.

[shrink]

Miller is more than 4 years younger and so we don't yet know how good he can become. I think Miller can be a decent defender whereas Naz is a complete train wreck as a defender. I'm keeping Miller over Naz and when you factor in Naz's salary, I'd trade Naz before Miller every day of the week. I like Naz OK, but he was a negative during the playoffs, and with all the hype about his being 6th man, I'd consider selling high on him, especially as he can leave after next season. If we could get someone like Trey Murphy or Herb Jones for Naz, that would be a coup! Those guys may not be realistic, but one can hope since Pels might say goodbye to Valanciunas. I'd love Jalen Suggs, DiVincenzo, Okongwu, Duren, Kuzma too. I have no idea what Naz's trade value is, but are any of these names realistic?

PS: I read the Ringer's rankings of trade values which they compiled in February and pretty much all the names I listed might be realistic. Only Suggs at 69 was listed ahead of Naz at 70. I know he's a popular guy, but Naz's trade value may never be higher and he can leave after next year. https://nbarankings.theringer.com/trade-value Naz is even ranked ahead of McDaniels, which sounds whack to me. By comparison, Ant is ranked 7th, KAT-34th, Gobert-50th.

PS(2): I see that both Murphy and Jones are ranked ahead of Naz in their player rankings list, and Murphy is younger than NAZ and he ranks a little behind him in trade value rankings. I think Pels love Murphy and that is reason Ingram is being shopped, so I'd surprised if they consider trading him, but if they love Naz enough, who knows. I love Murphy enough that I'd add our 2024 first round pick plus Naz to get him.

I wanted to bring this interesting post over to this thread because it touches on the trade discussion we’re having right now.

Over the last ten days, the Trade Board has been discussing offers for Naz, culminating in the #5 pick, so yes, Naz has a lot of Trade Value right now. I wanted to post a link to that thread if people want to see the offers, and I’ll repost my initial comment.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2383603

Okay Mamba - you’re on my list. Picture me as Steve Buscimi in Billy Madison.

Ok, seriously, the GM in me completely understands this. Thirteen months from now, MIN likely can’t afford to pay Naz what he deserves when he opts out, and his trade value on this year of low salary, to a team that CAN afford to keep him with Bird rights. He also isn’t a starter on the Wolves, and could be worth more to another team. This makes him a textbook trade candidate.

That said, I’ve been here long enough to learn these types of decisions aren’t 100% based on CBA math, and Naz is a perfect case for this. In fact, he is only on MIN now because Glen Taylor made an uncharacteristic intervention to get Tim Connelly to raise his offer to keep him, and Naz Reid took less because he wanted to stay in MIN. This may have been the first time in franchise history a player took less to stay HERE, but he liked his teammates, and he wanted to repay MIN for taking a chance on him as a pudgy undrafted free agent. He is likely the second most popular player on the current team with fans, because his work ethic and competitiveness resonates with Minnesota values. A Naz Reid beach towel is a badge of honor.

I’d also point out that he is a big part of MIN’s advantage over other teams. The Wolves pound opponents’ bigs, challenging their size and picking up fouls. With Reid as sixth man, teams need 96 minutes of quality big man defense, which few teams can afford.

As a GM, I think a Naz trade makes lots of sense. But the NBA is entertainment, and the fans love Naz. I’m curious what offers this thread will draw, but I think the likely outcome is he plays one more year with the Wolves, and then, for the first time in his career, he gets paid what he’s worth as a free agent on another team.

[moss_is_1]

Trading Naz does make a lot of sense for those points. His value is at an all time high. We have to ask, can he be better than he is now? His defense is awful, outside of the occasional highlight. His offense is very good, a bit inconsistent at times though. He's a bad rebounder. He's a huge fan favorite, though. Would TC have the guts to trade him?

[cmoss84]

NAZ for Suggs? Might soften the PR blow...

[Norseman79]

NAZ for Suggs? Might soften the PR blow...

I don't think the Magic would see Naz as enough to move off of Suggs. Wagner, Banchero, and even Carter would be higher than Naz to fill their front court.

[Norseman79]

3 team Naz Reid....(I don't want to trade Naz)

Washington in: Naz Reid
Out: Avdija, 26

Heat in: Moore, Minott, 27
Out: Jovic

Wolves in: Avdija, Jovic, 26
Out: Reid, Minott, Moore, 27

PG Conley, NAW
SG Edwards Clark
SF McDaniels, Avdija
PF Towns, Jovic
C Gobert

Really we just need to add a point guard and a legit back up five

[Note30]

3 team Naz Reid....(I don't want to trade Naz)

Washington in: Naz Reid
Out: Avdija, 26

Heat in: Moore, Minott, 27
Out: Jovic

Wolves in: Avdija, Jovic, 26
Out: Reid, Minott, Moore, 27

PG Conley, NAW
SG Edwards Clark
SF McDaniels, Avdija
PF Towns, Jovic
C Gobert

Really we just need to add a point guard and a legit back up five

This ain't it.