Cater system for players or get players to cater to system?

[Calinks]

I think this is an interesting point and there are definitely a couple of different philosophies that go along with this. I was listening to PA and Kris Humphries talk on KFAN earlier today and they had a little discussion. PA said that he watches the Lakers and he notices how they continually use pick and roll, and isolation plays to win games down the stretch. He wondered why the wolves rarely do that. Humphries noted that some coaches tailor their system to fit players and others only look for players that fit in their system. He feels that Phil's strength is that he gets the most out of his triangle with the personnel he has.

I see here that some people are starting to want to trade both Al Jefferson and Kevin Love in hopes of acquiring a couple of more draft picks or players, specifically ones that may be better fits. Looking at all of this I start to question where we are going. Two years ago we thought we had a nice foundation to build around. We had a few nice young pieces and we knew we were adding more in the 2009 draft. Now people are talking about blowing up our youth, notably Al Jefferson and Kevin Love, our two best pieces and gambling on younger prospects.

Much of this talk stems from people believing that these players wont be the right "fit" for our "system". I'm the type of person who thinks you should cater your system to your current team. Big Al and Love are some of the best big men in the NBA. We have invested years into them already, on most other teams they would be great players. Why are we willing to part with them both and go after players who are younger and less experienced? Big Al and Cousins don't fit together so let's trade Al. Who the hell is DeMarcus Cousins? Why do we trade Al Jefferson, an All-Star caliber player for this kid who we have never seen play a minute of NBA basketball? After that, why would we trade Kevin Love, the best rebounder in the NBA for the 5th pick? We set ourselves back a couple of years and we gamble all because we want players who fit this system?

A major part of growing a successful team is allowing players to grow together and discover themselves on an NBA court. I don't care where they go, Al Jefferson and Kevin Love are going to be 18 and 10 players anywhere. If getting the proper players for the system or fit means dumping our best players then maybe we should find a way to change the system or the other personal so we can have a better team. Think about how much we have struggled in he last 3 or 4 years. Trading away Al, Love, Flynn for more players that are young and inexperienced is just going to continue that struggle. I'm tired of hitting the reset button.

Depending on how things work out, I can see the need to trade one of these players. I think we need to be careful though about what we are giving away and for what reason. Look at the magic series. Dwight Howard is believed by many to be the best big man in the game. He has been getting his butt kicked in these playoffs. He is very limited offensively and it hurts his team. Do you think they should trade him or find players to cover up his weakness? Al Jefferson is a top 3 post scorer in the NBA, there is a premium on that ability. I am not so sure that 2008 Al Jefferson would have been held to 7 points in a game like this. I doubt Kevin Love wouldn't have been able to box out and grab boards to help his team win because he is so freakishly good at doing so. These guys are some of the best at what they do. We can't devalue them just because of a few weaknesses they posses or because of a new player we may bring in who we have no real idea about.

If you want to move forward and stop relying on the lottery and prospect after prospect you have to make a commitment to move forward with the core pieces you got. If Al, Jonny, and Love don't fit the system then I think it's time you adjust aspects of the system to fit the majority of your players. How frustrating would it be if we moves Al, Love, and maybe eventually Flynn just to see a few years later that we still suck, Rambis gets fired, and Al and Love are in they all-star game while Jonny is a respected player on some other team. How many good pieces are you willing to dump to establish this equilibrium in which we don't even really know how effective it can be until it's here?

[LordBaldric]

I agree. Only a coach with a huge proven track record of success has the cred to force his system instead of trying to maximize his current players IMO.

[revprodeji]

Those are not the reasons I want to trade Al or love.

1.) They cannot co-exist defensively. This is an issue when your 2 best players cannot play together.

2.) I would use them as an asset to improve the SF position which is really hurting us.

Not because of a "system". Now, when I look for new players I do take the system into account, but vets should be able to make a change if they have value. The things that "hurt" all in this system would hurt him in any system.

[LordBaldric]

Those are not the reasons I want to trade Al or love.

1.) They cannot co-exist defensively. This is an issue when your 2 best players cannot play together.

2.) I would use them as an asset to improve the SF position which is really hurting us.

Not because of a "system". Now, when I look for new players I do take the system into account, but vets should be able to make a change if they have value. The things that "hurt" all in this system would hurt him in any system.

I don't like Jeff much and want to trade him, but it still upsets me that Rambis' system made him look worse than he is and likely scuttled his trade value.

[LordBaldric]

Infinitely worse, it seems like Rubio's impact would be minimized in Rambis' offense as well.

[Calinks]

This isn't about trading either one. I can understand why you do that but trading both? Dumping player like Jonny Flynn? Unless the deal is just too great I don't see why you would do that. Find a way to make it work with the majority of your players. Let Flynn do more things that he is comfortable with. Give Love the PT and touches if he stays over Al. If Al stays over Love put Al in positions where he can play like he player he is. Don't just continue to dump value players because they don't fit exactly into your rigid scheme.

[revprodeji]

Infinitely worse, it seems like Rubio's impact would be minimized in Rambis' offense as well.

Completely disagree. Read-react/passing offenses are very popular in europe. Rubio is a great P/R player, but he also often times moves without the ball and will initiate after much movement and from the wing. He does not need to be ball dominate.

That is like suggesting any playmaking guard is minimized, but Jordan/pippen and Kobe have no problem playmaking.

Al looks worse because he was not allowed to simply sit on the left block every time.

[SSUBluesman]

The entire core was known before Rambis was hired to install the triangle, with all of them poor fits, including Love since he isn't the basketball genius everyone said he was. I have a feeling Kahn was looking for a "winner" for a coach which is misplaced given how Rambis' system doesn't fit and how often times young teams go through at least one coach (OKC the most recent example).

Of course Jefferson and Love don't work, they were never going to but everyone here decided to pretend otherwise much like they've fallen in love with Cousins simply because he's likely our pick. The Love trade was idiotic at the time and still is.

Ultimately the question is: What are we trying to be and how are we trying to do it? The problem is no one knows, including Kahn.

[revprodeji]

I think another question is if Rambis is obsessed with the pure triangle or if he is more of a show-time guy. Sometime had a ball-dominate pg in Magic.

I think we need to avoid pigeon-holing him.

[Worm Guts]

Ultimately the question is: What are we trying to be and how are we trying to do it? The problem is no one knows, including Kahn.

Kahn has been fairly clear about what we want to be and how he wants to do it.

[shangrila]

I think it's good to have a system so you know what you're looking for in certain players, but there's definitely a point where the system gets crafted a little by it's players. But at the level this team is at right now I think they're right to stick to a system over the players.

[tvwolves7]

I am not going to look up the interview but I recall Rambis stating for Flynn that he wants him to learn the offense and not go back to his tendencies. And in the future he will let him do more of his thing once he improves on how the offense should run. The same thing went for the entire team. I can not fault Rambis for sticking through it, if he did allow the players to go away from the system they would start doing it more often and soon the offense would be barely used. Also would this have allowed us 4-5 more wins?

On a side note, I watched a little documentary earlier this week on the Lakers for this season. They talked about how difficult it was for Artest to learn the offense and is still learning it. In the Lakers case you had 8-10 players knowing the offense and able to help Artest through the Offense, unlike the wolves where one coach knew the system well. Basically as time goes on and with another spring training, etc I think the offense will look better, and then the next year even better and so on. Especially when it comes to new players coming in, they should be able to pick it up faster since they have more then one coach to lean on for learning the offense.

[Klomp]

1.) They cannot co-exist defensively. This is an issue when your 2 best players cannot play together.

EXACTLY. This is the reason why we are possibly looking to trade one of them. It is well-known. Kahn has said it. I think this was part of the supposed rift between Rambis and Love, as well. Jefferson showed later in the year that he at least tries on defense. Love......not so much.

[the_bruce]

Don't get me wrong I love me some klove, but Ive been an advocate of trading him for quite sometime. He needs to be in a different system, and he must develop a variety of aspects of his game. most importantly his ability to defend his position.

Moving klove for any sf would be my #1 priority. Regardless, of your feelings towards Al. He's still an absolute beast and I think over time when the offense is learned Rambis will let Al do what he does more and be less concerned about the offense. Same goes for Flynn.

[Klomp]

Don't get me wrong I love me some klove

Don't lie....I know what you wanted to say. You really wanted to say this:

Don't get me wrong I love me some klomp

[Calinks]

I am not going to look up the interview but I recall Rambis stating for Flynn that he wants him to learn the offense and not go back to his tendencies. And in the future he will let him do more of his thing once he improves on how the offense should run. The same thing went for the entire team. I can not fault Rambis for sticking through it, if he did allow the players to go away from the system they would start doing it more often and soon the offense would be barely used. Also would this have allowed us 4-5 more wins?

On a side note, I watched a little documentary earlier this week on the Lakers for this season. They talked about how difficult it was for Artest to learn the offense and is still learning it. In the Lakers case you had 8-10 players knowing the offense and able to help Artest through the Offense, unlike the wolves where one coach knew the system well. Basically as time goes on and with another spring training, etc I think the offense will look better, and then the next year even better and so on. Especially when it comes to new players coming in, they should be able to pick it up faster since they have more then one coach to lean on for learning the offense.

I can live with that but what if we don't have the players here anymore by the time that rolls around? People are talking about trading both Al and Love. Bringing in Cousins, Wes Johnson. and then trading Flynn down the line too.We will be starting over and we will have another season like last where we are teaching these rooks how to play the triangle. If both Al and Love are gone, we wasted a huge amount of time and resources teaching them a system that we don't even feel they can use.

[revprodeji]

I think that is always a problem when you start-over on a rebuild. Kahn/Rambis have been very clear with this. When you have players from a former vision you either need to fit them to the new vision or move them. The only (big) negative I have with Kahn is that he should have had Rambis in place before the draft last year. Clearly Curry would have been the better triangle pg then Flynn. Now that we have our front office and our coaching staff on the same page we can move players around and establish this vision.

[Worm Guts]

I can live with that but what if we don't have the players here anymore by the time that rolls around? People are talking about trading both Al and Love. Bringing in Cousins, Wes Johnson. and then trading Flynn down the line too.We will be starting over and we will have another season like last where we are teaching these rooks how to play the triangle. If both Al and Love are gone, we wasted a huge amount of time and resources teaching them a system that we don't even feel they can use.

I know where you're coming from, every year around this time everyone wants to trade all our existing players for draft picks. It can get a little over the top.
That being said, condsidering the redundancy of our young players it's understandable.

[Breakdown777]

Nice word Worm. This team seem very Redundant.

I'm frankly running out of patience, and if it's clear that a player or group of players do not fit here, move them, for everyones benefit.

I thought we had a nice little team developing under McHale: Some solid scoring/rebounding bigs, and some 3 point shooters. All we needed was a go-to guy/slasher who could actually perform (none of that Ricky Davis/Corey Brewer stuff, I'm talking a REAL go-to guy). Instead, we decide to start over YET AGAIN, only this time with a new GM and a new coach each with a vision substantially different than the old boss. This creates players that have to buy into a new system, new vision, and new coach. The players are professionals, and should be expected to do this. Some just can't. I'm not going to complain about the state the team is in, but I will be proactively endorsing moving out the old players for better fits. From the sound of it, Kahn seems commited to Rambis and "player development". Since Rambo will be here awhile, (and seems pretty stubborn in his coaching style), I would rather move guys for equal talent (or equal percieved talent) and have a team that looks like a team, opposed to keeping around talented guys that don't look like they should because of other factors.

I sort of want to blow it all up, because a 15 win team shouldn't have much hope for their players. I'm not saying move Al and Love for Brand and Kevin Martin; I'm saying move some pieces for better fits while retaining talent level. It's pretty obvious that Love and Al will not work, so we better move one and maximize value while creating a more balanced team that fits into the coaches and front offices vision.

And I think moving Flynn is just preposterous. His value level is low right now because of the comparisons to Curry, Jennings, Etc. I'm expecting noticable improvement from him next season. I don't have the stats in front of me, but it seems that his TO rate dropped significatnly the more comfortable he became with the system. It doesn't make much sense to lose him until Rubio comes, then one of Flynn/Sessions has to go (I'm thinking Sessions because of that broken jumpshot).

[shangrila]

I think the progress under McHale was kind of false though. Foye got hot for a few games and everyone took it as a sign the team had finally taken a step forward, when really they took a massive step back defensively and just let people do whatever they wanted, meaning they didn't learn anything.

I'm glad they've decided to start again after 13 years of failure and if it takes another season or 2 to get somewhere, so be it. This team as a whole sucks and anyone has a right to be shipped out for something equal or better.