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Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:13 pm
by re49gb_2gho32fp
The other side of the story. Found this very scrupulous piece on the GB that drew my attention. The user essentially depicted down in detail whats been indoctrined in my mind about the reason for Kevin maintaining high rebounding averages. Please dont take this as offensive or anything, just rather hoping to stimulate a debate from it;
mysticbb wrote:The part about rebounding is the perfect example of how overrated raw stats without context are. The people are writing in Kevin Love, because they are just looking at the rpg numbers. Well, the Timberwolves are an even better rebounding team when Kevin Love sits on the bench.
The best rebounding team in the league are the Bucks. And the Bucks are at their best in terms of rebounding when Andrew Bogut is on the court. Bogut has the highest OnCourt DRB% of all players and the highest OnCourt TRB% of all players in the league. Rebounding is more than just grabbing the own misses on a fast paced team, it is about blocking out and giving the team the chance to get possession of the ball. Watch Bogut doing that and watch Love doing that. The difference is huge. While the one guy is boxing out and securing the area to make his team the best rebounding team is the other guy more concerned about himself and grabbing the ball even against his own teammates.
People always claim they are watching games, but when it comes to making such lists, they usually just pick the guys with the best per game numbers.
its on the frontpage GB 'best of...'
sorry for being momentarily lazy to post the link.
E: 1st paragraph & title
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's rebounding
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:24 pm
by collin_k41
I'd say at least 90% of the time this doesn't even affect our team rebounding. I do notice, and cringe, when I see Love greedily snatching up rebounds that our other teammates clearly have the bird rights to or causing other havoc but I don't really see it as a significant problem. It WOULD be a problem if he was doing that purely for stat boosting, but I think he just wants to help the team in the best way he can. You can't fault him for giving his all, especially when the rest of the team essentially gives up. I'll give Love an obligatory pass on this one.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:29 pm
by big3_8_19_21
I'd rather have Love grabbing every rebound he can, even if it means occasionally grabbing a rebound that a teammate would have gotten easily if it means that we never have one of those stupid moments where two guys don't go for a rebound because they think the other guy is going to grab it.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's rebounding
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:30 pm
by champalift
I don't really care. He is grabbing over 15 rebounds a game. If it is so easy to grab rebounds more players would be grabbing a lot more. It is easy to watch a game and see 4 of Love's rebounds being "easy" or occurring because someone else boxed out and Love just grabbed the ball. He still had 16 rebounds and lead the game.
Regardless, he is getting a ton of rebounds. Give him praise for that.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:53 pm
by mandurugo
Love is definitely a great rebounder, but there is a disconnect between his heroic level of boards and his impact on the game. I remember Jim Peterson made a comment in one of the games along the lines that it always seemed like a big deal when KG got 13 or 15 rebounds, but Love could do it in a half. Of course the reason it seemed like a big deal was Garnett was getting boards you didn't expect him to get, he was able to play incredible defense and play within the flow of the offense and still somehow track down rebounds he had no business touching. To my mind this makes KG the better rebounder of the two even if he gets fewer boards - the key point is that team rebounding doesn't take a hit when Love sits. To Love's credit, he is still young and generally improving his game. But at the moment he's not an irreplaceable part of the team.
But to be clear, based on his comment in context, I'm not too sure Peterson would agree with me about who the better rebounder is.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:34 am
by C.lupus
Aside from his facts being wrong, it was a great post.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:48 am
by Breakdown777
Love grabs so many boards, I think that looking at things like rebound % rates could be skewed just as much as per-game numbers are. You can't say hes not helping the team by taking away so many 2nd chance points and giving the wolves so many more opportunities. Sure, it might lead to him leaving his man, and a bad-bounce leading to an offensive board...but I'm sure that most of the time it's still beneficial for Love to be doing what he does.
Once a teammate get's popped with an elbow because Love attacked them for a rebound, then I'll be a little more annoyed. But right now, it's all good.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:26 am
by Devilzsidewalk
I've seen what the rebounding looks like when Tolliver is in the game and Love isn't, and it sure as hell isn't better. Better defense yes, better rebounding, oh my no ha ha, not at all. Its awful. Maybe when Love is out of the game its because its usually scrub time and guys are shooting at a lower percentage and creating more rebounds, I really don't know, but Pekovic, Darko and Tolliver are all abysmal rebounders.
And Love might snatch a board from a guy once in awhile, but KG did it too. Guys started to get it and run down court as the ball when off the iron and concede the defensive rebound. Eventually guys will get it w/ Love too, go try to get beat your man down court and let him get the rebound.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:14 am
by horaceworthy
C.lupus wrote:Aside from his facts being wrong, it was a great post.
Yeah, the Bucks are like the 8th best rebounding team in the league, both in terms of % and differential. Minnesota bests them in both categories (although they aren't tops, Orlando is). It's too bad that he started off warning about context and then didn't provide any.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:23 am
by flexbuffchest
What is this BS about Bogut having the best DRB% and TRB%?
Bogut:
DRB% = 27.3%
TRB% = 19.8%
Love:
DRB% = 35.7%
TRB% = 24.6%
The Wolves also are the best rebounding team in the league, leading the league with 45.8 rebounds a game. I also find it comical that he talks about stats without context and then boldly says we are a better rebounding team without Love, which is not true at all.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:26 am
by horaceworthy
flexbuffchest wrote:What is this BS about Bogut having the best DRB% and TRB%?
Bogut:
DRB% = 27.3%
TRB% = 19.8%
Love:
DRB% = 35.7%
TRB% = 24.6%
The Wolves also are the best rebounding team in the league, leading the league with 45.8 rebounds a game. I also find it comical that he talks about stats without context and then boldly says we are a better rebounding team without Love, which is not true at all.
He's talking about the 82games on/off court stats, I think.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:33 am
by flexbuffchest
horaceworthy wrote:flexbuffchest wrote:What is this BS about Bogut having the best DRB% and TRB%?
Bogut:
DRB% = 27.3%
TRB% = 19.8%
Love:
DRB% = 35.7%
TRB% = 24.6%
The Wolves also are the best rebounding team in the league, leading the league with 45.8 rebounds a game. I also find it comical that he talks about stats without context and then boldly says we are a better rebounding team without Love, which is not true at all.
He's talking about the 82games on/off court stats, I think.
Regardless, that would be a classic example of a "stat without context".
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:39 am
by C.lupus
If he's talking about on/offcourt net differential, he might be right, but that isn't what he said. He said: "Bogut has the highest OnCourt DRB% of all players and the highest OnCourt TRB% of all players in the league."
Bogut Oncourt DRB% = 72.5%, OnCourt TRB% = 52.2%
Love OnCourt DRB% = 72.9%, OnCourt TRB% = 53.5%
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:51 am
by horaceworthy
I'm guessing he's talking about net differential, since that's the number most likely to be referenced when saying the Wolves rebound better without Love, but perhaps I'm giving him too much credit.
I also have to laugh when I see people pull the old "he's just rebounding his own misses" line out of the hat, or point to the fast pace as reference for the raw #'s but ignore that only Reggie Evans tops Love when it comes to rebounding by %.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:58 am
by Grits n Gravy
Devilzsidewalk wrote:I've seen what the rebounding looks like when Tolliver is in the game and Love isn't, and it sure as hell isn't better. Better defense yes, better rebounding, oh my no ha ha, not at all. Its awful. Maybe when Love is out of the game its because its usually scrub time and guys are shooting at a lower percentage and creating more rebounds, I really don't know, but Pekovic, Darko and Tolliver are all abysmal rebounders.
And Love might snatch a board from a guy once in awhile, but KG did it too. Guys started to get it and run down court as the ball when off the iron and concede the defensive rebound. Eventually guys will get it w/ Love too, go try to get beat your man down court and let him get the rebound.
i'm sure darko certainly helps love's rebounding numbers, not significantly...but darko does do a good job of boxing and putting a body on his man when a shot goes up, even if he is not aggressive or plain not very good at attacking the ball on the actual rebound...he does do a good job tipping balls he can not grab.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:48 am
by Dewey
What a bunch of crap ... rebounding is rebounding and everyone has the same opportunity each time down the floor. Awwwwwwe ... did kevin take that rebound away from you? It's a loose ball - go get it ya big baby. No one is saying he's the best defensive player, but apparently someones feelings are hurt nonetheless...
Sit Love out 3 games and see what happens. The guy is stapled to the floor for pete sake yet he understands his limitations and position he needs to be a factor. We can dwell on what he does poorly, but to diminish his rebounding is simply moronic.
Flip-side my @$$
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:53 am
by urinesane
Who cares if Love is stealing rebounds from teammates? Isn't the point to secure the ball? When he starts trying to steal them from teammates and causes us to not get the ball, that's when I'll care.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:28 am
by Den Masters
It is kind of true that KLove's priority is rebounds, no matter what and if he has to take it away from a teammate, it should be fine as long as the ball is secured.
But KLove does leave his man a lot of times just to get in position for rebound. Then again, Our team in general can't play defense properly. The only one average to above average in defense is Brewer. Just don't let him shoot a lot lol.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:38 am
by Tirion
Love should be getting every defensive rebound on this team, cause of his outlet ability. I'm sure that's what Rambis tells him. That's (better) half of Wolves offense right there.
Re: Flipside of Kevin Love's out of space rebounding
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:11 pm
by Calinks
shaolin wrote:The other side of the story. Found this very scrupulous piece on the GB that drew my attention. The user essentially depicted down in detail whats been indoctrined in my mind about the reason for Kevin maintaining high rebounding averages. Please dont take this as offensive or anything, just rather hoping to stimulate a debate from it;
mysticbb wrote:Haters gonna hate.
its on the frontpage GB 'best of...'
sorry for being momentarily lazy to post the link.
E: 1st paragraph & title
Interesting read.