Lack of 3 Point Defense a Scheme Thing?

[AQuintus]

I saw this quote (apparently from a 2008 article) on Hoopus a few days ago and thought it was interesting:

Their basic problem defines what Rambis has chosen to do on defense. Phil Jackson’s teams have always struggled with small, quick guards that break down the bigger guards that Jackson likes to use. This type of penetration has proven deadly for the Lakers in particular. So Rambis has basically chosen to pack in the defense and concede the open three-pointer.
One Laker insider says Jackson has chosen to give Rambis this much power because he wants to help him get a head coaching job. Yikes. He may not be doing Rambis any favors. At times the Lakers D looks to be a jumbled mess. Other times, it works well enough. After all, they have jumped out of the gate with better than 20 wins.
But everyone involved senses problems, including Jackson’s fine coaching staff (Rambis, Frank Hamblen, Brian Shaw, Jim Cleamons, and several others). These coaches are not all on the same page about this defensive philosophy, but Rambis is calling the shots. So pack it in they do.

It seems that Rambis brought his defensive scheme from the Lakers to the Wolves. So every time we see the entire team (even the guys on the opposite side of the court from the action) collapse into the paint leaving wide open shooters, we know that it's a scripted action. It's at least partially the coaches' fault and not just young guys being stupid.

[shangrila]

Maybe. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, but it's not just packing the paint that leaves open shooters. It's guys constantly getting beaten off the freaking dribble.

Fundamentally I don't think a help based system like this is bad. I think you just need the kind of defenders this team doesn't currently have. Take that however you want.

[Piecake]

A Pg that doesnt get beat off the dribble by Andre Freakin Miller might help

[jade_hippo]

A Pg that doesnt get beat off the dribble by Andre Freakin Miller might help

We've had really crappy defensive PG's. Hudson, Cassell, Flynn, Telfair, Ridnour, James, Bobby Jackson...

Billups, Brandon, Banks are about the only decend defensive players we've had. Marbury and Jaric are really on the fence

[flexbuffchest]

This quote by all Rambis pretty much confirms he doesn't care about the opposing team shooting open 3s
http://twitter.com/#!/JerryZgoda/status ... 9477347328

@JerryZgoda
Jerry Zgoda
Rambis on #Timberwolves' inability to defend 3s: "You guys are making a bigger deal of it than it is."

unbelievable

[Piecake]

This quote by all Rambis pretty much confirms he doesn't care about the opposing team shooting open 3s
http://twitter.com/#!/JerryZgoda/status ... 9477347328

@JerryZgoda
Jerry Zgoda
Rambis on #Timberwolves' inability to defend 3s: "You guys are making a bigger deal of it than it is."

unbelievable

No, that doesnt, and it really isnt true. He explicitly stated that one of the main reasons why we lost the suns game was that stretch where we gave up a ton of wide open 3s

[flexbuffchest]

This quote by all Rambis pretty much confirms he doesn't care about the opposing team shooting open 3s
http://twitter.com/#!/JerryZgoda/status ... 9477347328

@JerryZgoda
Jerry Zgoda
Rambis on #Timberwolves' inability to defend 3s: "You guys are making a bigger deal of it than it is."

unbelievable

No, that doesnt, and it really isnt true. He explicitly stated that one of the main reasons why we lost the suns game was that stretch where we gave up a ton of wide open 3s

Right, he acknowledges that it cost us a game, but that quote I posted makes it sound like Rambis doesn't care about scheming against it.

[Piecake]

Right, he acknowledges that it cost us a game, but that quote I posted makes it sound like Rambis doesn't care about scheming against it.

You think "you guys are making a bigger deal of it than it actually is" means the same thing as he doesnt care if opponents shoot wide open 3s? I'm sorry, but thats ridiculous. They don't mean the same thing and they dont "seem" to mean the same thing either.

[flexbuffchest]

Right, he acknowledges that it cost us a game, but that quote I posted makes it sound like Rambis doesn't care about scheming against it.

You think "you guys are making a bigger deal of it than it actually is" means the same thing as he doesnt care if opponents shoot wide open 3s? I'm sorry, but thats ridiculous. They don't mean the same thing and they dont "seem" to mean the same thing either.

What I find ridicoulus is that you can't even entertain the idea that Rambis' defensive scheme is terrible. The article the OP posted was before he even coached a game here, and we are seeing the same thing! I then even give you a direct quote from Rambis saying that the opponent shooting 3s isn't a big deal and you completely ignore it. Things aren't all rosy with Rambis and so far he has been an underwhelming coach.

[Piecake]

What I find ridicoulus is that you can't even entertain the idea that Rambis' defensive scheme is terrible. The article the OP posted was before he even coached a game here, and we are seeing the same thing! I then even give you a direct quote from Rambis saying that the opponent shooting 3s isn't a big deal and you completely ignore it. Things aren't all rosy with Rambis and so far he has been an underwhelming coach.

Now you're putting words in my mouth?

Where did I even comment on Rambis' defensive schemes? My issue with you is that you were putting words in Rambis' mouth, just like you are now doing to me.

I'll state it plainly, there is a huge difference in meaning between "You guys are making a bigger deal of it than it is" and the bolded part of your quote. Why? Because we dont know how big a deal the reporters made it out to be. If they state that that is the reason why we are losing all of our games then Rambis might be right, and they are making a bigger deal out of it than it actually is. However, the bigger deal is key, because by saying that it is a deal he admits that it is a concern, just less than what the reporters say it is.

Now, what you do is take that quote to mean that he doesnt care about giving up 3's, which is quite incorrect based on what he said. You were putting words in his mouth.

[revprodeji]

I would rather give up a 3 then not help in the paint. The issue is we are being destroyed defensively at the pg and that requires help and rotation. In order to fix the problem you stop the PG from being burned and you do not need to rotate.

His defensive rotations are fine. We just need to stop individual penetration. Rubio will help.

[Piecake]

I would rather give up a 3 then not help in the paint. The issue is we are being destroyed defensively at the pg and that requires help and rotation. In order to fix the problem you stop the PG from being burned and you do not need to rotate.

His defensive rotations are fine. We just need to stop individual penetration. Rubio will help.

Based on his play in Europe this year, Rubio's game really looks like it has stagnated or even regressed. I am honestly concerned whether he will even be a decent NBA player. If we have the chance to draft Kyrie Irving(and he doesnt have any lingering injury concerns) we should totally jump on that.

Who knows, maybe he just has a horrible coach.

[C.lupus]

I don't know if his coach is horrible but I don't think he is helping Rubio develop. RR needs to come over next year so he can continue to grow as a player.

[Piecake]

I don't know if his coach is horrible but I don't think he is helping Rubio develop. RR needs to come over next year so he can continue to grow as a player.

Well, for the sake of Rubio's game, let's all hope that there is no lockout.

[eyeteeth]

Very interesting that this is a thread. I just finished watching the Portland game on DVR and I saw it again. Opposing players making open threes while T-Wolves launch themselves ineffectively into the air from 10+ feet away. I see it every game.

If this isn't a design flaw it is a serious execution problem. If it is a design flaw it's killing us.

[younggunsmn]

I fully believe it is a scheme thing. Pack the paint. Sag off your man. Very rarely do you see this team ever switch a pick and roll or off-ball screen. This is the same thing McHale did trying to overcompensate for a love/jefferson frontcourt and the same end result. Early in the year Wes was on his man like glue, holding him to a 9 PER against, which is phenomenal. But Rambis says he isn't playing good defense, which means he isn't buying into Rambis's pack the paint crazy ass rotation scheme.

All players have to play passing lanes off the ball to a certain extent, but this team takes it to such an extreme that even normally quick guys like Brewer and Johnson have a hard time getting back to close out the guy they're guarding. You can see the palpable frustration with players being asked to do things that go against their natural defensive instincts.

Dribble penetration and PG defense is a huge problem. But unless you've got Rondo, Westbrook, Rose, or Wall, you are not going to be able to run the scheme Rambis runs without giving up a ton of wide-open 3's. If it were my scheme only the 2 bigs would be allowed to help or rotate on dribble penetration. Ideally you can force the driver to one side of the lane, and the big on the other side can rotate underneath. We're often okay at this point, but the wing players have a tendency to sink too low and turn their backs to the player they're guarding, and they're screwed at this point. This is much too prevelant to not be a scheme thing, because it's not just one guy that does this it's everyone.

Problem is that if Darko is not in the game we get murdered under my scenario too, and Love is not always the best at rotating to the passing lane under the basket when Darko goes to help.

[shangrila]

Dribble penetration and PG defense is a huge problem. But unless you've got Rondo, Westbrook, Rose, or Wall, you are not going to be able to run the scheme Rambis runs without giving up a ton of wide-open 3's. If it were my scheme only the 2 bigs would be allowed to help or rotate on dribble penetration. Ideally you can force the driver to one side of the lane, and the big on the other side can rotate underneath. We're often okay at this point, but the wing players have a tendency to sink too low and turn their backs to the player they're guarding, and they're screwed at this point. This is much too prevelant to not be a scheme thing, because it's not just one guy that does this it's everyone.

This seems more like a player problem then a coaching problem though. You can help without sagging in too much and losing track of your man is just poor awareness. They'll get it eventually.

Problem is that if Darko is not in the game we get murdered under my scenario too, and Love is not always the best at rotating to the passing lane under the basket when Darko goes to help.

And this is the biggest reason I think he does it. The team doesn't have the shot blockers to do a Chicago or Boston style defence and Darko struggles with enough fouls trying to hedge the guards when they're coming off screens. Forcing more guys into him would just lead to more fouls, him going out of the game and the teams defence and half of it's offensive flow going out with him.

[Piecake]

And this is the biggest reason I think he does it. The team doesn't have the shot blockers to do a Chicago or Boston style defence and Darko struggles with enough fouls trying to hedge the guards when they're coming off screens. Forcing more guys into him would just lead to more fouls, him going out of the game and the teams defence and half of it's offensive flow going out with him.

Another reason why I would have absolutely loved if Favors had fallen to us. Sorry snipes!

[younggunsmn]

My point is that it is my suspicion that they are being coached specifically to play that way (sag in too far and overhelp) instead of trusting their teammates to be able to recover and force a contested shot, or just outright switch (which rarely happens in this scheme). The biggest problem is that players trust each other so little they sell out their own assignment to bail out a teammate that maybe didn't need it.

Darko is case in point. Darko is good at contesting shots inside of 10 feet without fouling. But he picks up stupid fouls trying to over hedge a pick/roll because he knows corey brewer gets bounced around like a pinball trying to get around screens. There is no sense in bigs helping 23 feet out and guards packing the paint. It's bad defense. You can effectively defend against pentration if you can use one big to keep the penetrator out of the middle of the floor and force him outside the paint, with the other big rotating and the player guarding the penetrator digging down into the passing lane. You don't have to have shotblockers all over to force difficult interior shots wihout giving up a wide open 3 if the 2 bigs are in the proper position.

The quotes in the opening post are very interesting because we have relatively little information about what Rambis was like as an assistant in LA or what influence/duties he had.

[shangrila]

I think it's a reason why Pekovic isn't here long term, especially if they're committed to Love.