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WTF (The Impatience Thread)

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WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#1 » by LOBO 7 » Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:00 am

As many of you know, I have always been one of the more patient and optimistic fans around here. I have always defended Rambis and tried to remain hopeful about Flynn, tried to argue over and over again that this team is close to turning the corner, etc.

But.......WTF?

I have also always been the type that gets attached to players as people, causing me to be reluctant to want to trade anyone.

We need a bit of a shake-up this offseason, but not a major overhaul. We need to get older, not younger. We need to move some of our youth-with-potential to anybody willing to bite on that potential. We need Rubio to get the F over here, which I fully think he will if there is no lockout. We need there to not be lockout.

We need to move the following players: Flynn, Ellington, Pek, and, if we get good value, Beas. Maybe even Webster and, as much as I love him, Tolly. We can also use the rights to Bjelica/Prestes, the MEM pick, maybe the rights to the Utah pick, etc. We just absolutely need to move some youth/prospects/picks for actual productive players.

What kind of team would want any of these players? Any rebuilding team with less young talent than we have. Cleveland, Toronto, that might be it.

What would we possibly want from either of those teams that they would be willing to give up? DeRozan and Ed Davis are certainly off-limits in Toronto. But they do need a young PG and might still have some faith in Flynn excelling in a different system, which might be somewhat true. They could certainly use a bruiser like Pek. Quietly, Leandro Barbosa is having a nice season, averaging 13ppg in 24 MPG off the bench, and I have always liked him. He would fill a glaring need of ours in his ability to create off the dribble, and he is still one of the fastest players in the league, which would certainly look nice next to Rubio.

What about Cleveland? What do they need? What can they offer? They need some excitement, any excitement. I think they would love to get Beasley, and would maybe overpay to get him. What do they have that we would want? Another Brazilian. Varejao. I think he would be a huge upgrade both in terms of defense and passion. I know Cleveland loves him, but they need any excitement they can get and would be one of the few teams that I think would give up good value to get Beas.

These are just the ideas I have had lately, in thinking about what teams would possibly give up anything of value for our struggling young players.

I think this line-up would be a big improvement:

Rubio/Ridnour
Barnes*/Barbosa
Wes/Randolph/Webster(?)
Love/Randolph/Tolly(?)
Darko/Varejao/Randolph

*also, we need to get Harrison.

So, we need Rubio to get over here and be legit. We need to draft Barnes and we need him to become as clutch in the NBA as he has been at UNC. We need Wes to continue to develop and become much more consistent. We need Love to be Love. We need to use Darko as the kind of starting center that starts the 1st and 3rd quarters, but if he isn't having one of his good games, we need him to not pout and completely lose his confidence is Varejao gets the bulk of the minutes. We need Ridnour to be a solid back-up PG, which I think he is. We need Barbosa to do basically what he has done in Toronto this season, and be a consistent spark off the bench with consistent energy. We need plenty of minutes for Randolph, and we need him to develop some consistency and resist the urge to try to do too much. We need Tolly to keep being Tolly, unless we have to move him, but I hope we don't. We need Varejao to be what he always has been- one of the best defensive bigs around, who also brings great energy.

I think this line-up would also give us a lot of versatility.

How fast would this up-tempo line-up be?: Rubio, Barbosa, Wes, Randolph, Varejao
How tenacious would this defensive line-up be?: Rubio, Wes, Randolph, Tolly, Varejao
How lights-out would this shooting line-up be?: Ridnour, Barnes, Wes, Tolly, Love
How savvy would this veteran line-up be?: Ridnour, Barbosa, Webster. Tolly, Varejao


I have reached the point where I don't think Beas and Love can co-exist defensively long-term. I actually think they are a worse combo defensively than Al and Love were. That is my primary reasoning for being willing to move Beas. I think people around the league fully understand how much potential he still has, so I don't think his value is completely shot. I also think he needs to be on a team built around him, and this team will never be that team, as we are building around Love. I also think AR can play some of his minutes at the 3, so moving Beas helps open up minutes for him. AR just compliments Love defensively much better than Beas.

We also need Rambis to show us something early in the season, or I will quickly stop defending him, even though he is a nice man. He needs to let Rubio play to his strengths and have the ball in his hands a lot, and he needs to let him play through mistakes. We need him to stop trying to force the offense through Darko, and to be willing to run more pick-and-rolls and run our shooters off screens more often. We need him to get more passion out of his players and much better defensive energy overall. If these things don't happen and we are struggling early in the year next year, I will gladly join Vindicater in calling for his head.

I do think that Rubio, Varejao, Barbosa, Randolph, and Tolly(I really don't want to move Tolly) are the type of players that play with 110% hustle on both ends of the court for 48 minutes. While I don't think any of these guys are vocal leaders, I think they will consistently lead by example and give the team much better energy in general, making us a less-than-atrocious defensive team. Beasley is just not that kind of player, and he never will be, so I don't like him as a key piece of this team going forward. Love, despite his defensive reputation, plays his ass off.

I don't know. This is the WTF thread, where everybody desperately tries to find ideas about how we can improve next season.

For me right now, the biggest WTF is our lack of passion, heart and effort, :evil: so I have tried to address those problems with these moves.

Thoughts?
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#2 » by LOBO 7 » Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:04 am

Also, this is my post number 1111, so I'm going to be away for a while as I think about what I should wish for.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#3 » by cpfsf » Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:45 am

LOBO 7 wrote:Also, this is my post number 1111, so I'm going to be away for a while as I think about what I should wish for.


I'm sorry that I wasn't there for you when you made your 994th post.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#4 » by Calinks » Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:58 am

I think our system and style of play needs to be addressed more than anything. It's terrible, we have poor demeanor and every other team has a confidence/poise about themselves that we can only imitate in stretches. We don't look like we belong in the same league much of the time.

-Get Vets

-We need better PG play. Some of this has to do with the system as well.

-More vets, fewer young players. We need to move some of these picks/players. I wouldn't give up on Beasley, all of these guys under 22 still have a lot of learning to do. Make deals that make sense but don't give up on a guy like Beasley this early. Veteran presence will do a lot for this team. The last thing we need is another crop of players under 23 years of age.

-Defense. Bring in an assitant to handle this. We need to start playing much better on that end of the flower.

-Get Vets

-Throw our run and gun pipe dreams out the window. These teams never accomplish anything anyway. I didn't like the idea from day one and I don't see anything that makes me change my mind. Run and gun sucks. If we actualyl do get good at it we will have fun seasons but then get destroyed in the playoffs.

-Find a center. I don't think Randolph or Love can handle the 5 duties. Darko is too unreliable. We need to look for a C that plays defense but can also contribute offensively.

-Get Vets
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#5 » by Esohny » Fri Apr 1, 2011 2:58 am

cpfsf wrote:
LOBO 7 wrote:Also, this is my post number 1111, so I'm going to be away for a while as I think about what I should wish for.


I'm sorry that I wasn't there for you when you made your 994th post.


I was there. It was magical.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#6 » by AQuintus » Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:35 am

So you move Beasley for Varajao, who you don't even think could beat out Darko for the starting spot, in order to open up a spot for a guy in Barnes who puts up worse stats than Beasley against weaker competition?

It's interesting to me that you would have DeRozan listed as a guy that we would want but couldn't get. Just look at DeRozan's numbers compared to Beasley's per 40: http://bkref.com/tiny/Fgyd0.

Beasley: 21.3 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 19.1 FGA (1.115 PPS), 15.3 PER, 112 Drtg
DeRozan: 17.4 points, 3.9 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 14.3 FGA (1.216 PPS), 14.1 PER, 114 Drtg

DeRozan is slightly more efficient and turns the ball over less, but is actually a worse defender, gets less assists, and doesn't have the excuse of all of the injuries that Beasley does.

Also, Barnes is less of a SG than Johnson at this point. He can handle the ball better, but he'd get killed on defense because of his lack of quickness.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#7 » by eyeteeth » Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:40 am

AQuintus wrote:So you move Beasley for Varajao, who you don't even think could beat out Darko for the starting spot, in order to open up a spot for a guy in Barnes who puts up worse stats than Beasley against weaker competition?

It's interesting to me that you would have DeRozan listed as a guy that we would want but couldn't get. Just look at DeRozan's numbers compared to Beasley's per 40: http://bkref.com/tiny/Fgyd0.

Beasley: 21.3 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 19.1 FGA (1.115 PPS), 15.3 PER, 112 Drtg
DeRozan: 17.4 points, 3.9 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 14.3 FGA (1.216 PPS), 14.1 PER, 114 Drtg

DeRozan is slightly more efficient and turns the ball over less, but is actually a worse defender, gets less assists, and doesn't have the excuse of all of the injuries that Beasley does.

Also, Barnes is less of a SG than Johnson at this point. He can handle the ball better, but he'd get killed on defense because of his lack of quickness.

:lol: Ohh, that critical analysis is a bitzch. But basically, yeah, what he said.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#8 » by Klomp » Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:43 am

Having said what I did in the Prospect thread about smaller SGs and Wes at SF, I'm going to propose a trade that would make us smaller on the wing, and would likely move Wes to SF, depending on who's drafted.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... Id=3r8sycd
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#9 » by AQuintus » Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:49 am



This is exactly the kind of trade that the Wolves shouldn't do. Neither of the players we get back is as good as Beasley, and Haywood might actually be worth less than Flynn at this point do to his terrible contract and lack of production.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#10 » by Klomp » Fri Apr 1, 2011 3:54 am

AQuintus wrote:


This is exactly the kind of trade that the Wolves shouldn't do. Neither of the players we get back is as good as Beasley, and Haywood might actually be worth less than Flynn at this point do to his terrible contract and lack of production.

I haven't followed Haywood so I was unaware of his "lack of production." I just wish we had a thug-like presence in the paint. Maybe we could swap Webster for him?
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#11 » by Krapinsky » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:10 am

AQuintus wrote:So you move Beasley for Varajao, who you don't even think could beat out Darko for the starting spot, in order to open up a spot for a guy in Barnes who puts up worse stats than Beasley against weaker competition?

It's interesting to me that you would have DeRozan listed as a guy that we would want but couldn't get. Just look at DeRozan's numbers compared to Beasley's per 40: http://bkref.com/tiny/Fgyd0.

Beasley: 21.3 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 19.1 FGA (1.115 PPS), 15.3 PER, 112 Drtg
DeRozan: 17.4 points, 3.9 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 14.3 FGA (1.216 PPS), 14.1 PER, 114 Drtg

DeRozan is slightly more efficient and turns the ball over less, but is actually a worse defender, gets less assists, and doesn't have the excuse of all of the injuries that Beasley does.

Also, Barnes is less of a SG than Johnson at this point. He can handle the ball better, but he'd get killed on defense because of his lack of quickness.


That's just wrong.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#12 » by Krapinsky » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:14 am

Impatience with this team will only turn you into the Charlotte Bobcats/Milwaukee Bucks. We need to rebuild patiently until we find a franchise player, or we need to blow the whole thing up for a Boston style Big 3.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#13 » by Steve_Holiday » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:25 am

AQuintus wrote: in order to open up a spot for a guy in Barnes who puts up worse stats than Beasley against weaker competition?


almost every college player from any year will have worse stats than beasley.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#14 » by AQuintus » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:33 am

Steve_Holiday wrote:almost every college player from any year will have worse stats than beasley.


Both Derrick Williams and Kyrie Irving have better stats than Beasley this year (per 40 pace adjusted). Sullinger, Walker, and Burks all do too.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#15 » by Worm Guts » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:34 am

That's not true. I dont think AQuintus was talking about Beasley's college stats.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#16 » by Esohny » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:36 am

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SMAC-K wrote:Mayo>>>>Love and that 5th pick
OJ Mayo is one of the best defenders in the league, hes a two way player and hes a great passer and playmaker.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#17 » by Krapinsky » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:44 am

Worm Guts wrote:That's not true. I dont think AQuintus was talking about Beasley's college stats.


But what merit is there in comparing NBA and college stats??

Even so, it is true. Barnes has a 19.5 PER this year. Beasly has a 15.4.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#18 » by Esohny » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:51 am

Krapinsky wrote:Impatience with this team will only turn you into the Charlotte Bobcats/Milwaukee Bucks. We need to rebuild patiently until we find a franchise player, or we need to blow the whole thing up for a Boston style Big 3.


Not an option. Boston already had an established superstar, and youth with trade value, among other things. We're down to "pray for a miracle in the draft" apparently.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#19 » by AQuintus » Fri Apr 1, 2011 4:59 am

Krapinsky wrote:But what merit is there in comparing NBA and college stats??


To show that what Beasley's doing this year isn't so easily replaceable and to curb some of the overrating of Barnes.

Even so, it is true. Barnes has a 19.5 PER this year. Beasly has a 15.4.


Irving - 32.5
Sullinger - 30.4
Walker - 30.0
Williams - 32.5
Love (in college) - 36.4
Beasley (in college) - 39.3
Edit: Wes Johnson (in college) - 25.4 (!)

Perry Jones (all potential, disappointment based on stats) - 19.5
John Henson - 23.7
Marcus Morris - 29.4

Barnes' 19.5 PER is actually pretty bad for the NCAA.
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Re: WTF (The Impatience Thread) 

Post#20 » by Krapinsky » Fri Apr 1, 2011 5:08 am

Barnes isn't billed as a guy that's going to step in and be a superstar right now. He's still putting it together, but he was improving game by game.

For some context with your college PER stats, Brandon Roy had a 12.6 PER after his freshman year and a 17.9 PER after his sophomore year. Russell Westbrook had a 13.3 his freshman year and a 19.4 after his sophomore year. These guys are too young/inexperiencd to judge them on productivity alone when projecting how they're going to be NBA players.
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