RealGM

silverhill27 wrote:Would you do Calderon and Barbosa for Darko, Webster and Ridnour?

I'm thinking yes.
It'd shore up our SG/PG position pretty nicely for a reasonable price without trading anyone we'd miss significantly.

We would absolutely have to aquire a decent center who can protect the paint right after. There's no way I relying on Love, Randolph, or Pekovic to do that.

I have to say, though, if Randolph actually added 20 lbs of muscle this off season like some reports suggest he could become a legitimate center next year. I agree, though, I like the sure thing.

So...I was thinking Dallas would love to resign Tyson Chandler, and therefore would love to get rid of Brendan Haywood's salary. We could trade them reasonably priced bench players to fill out their roster for Haywood, who's salary should drive off most teams.

IMO Calderon is a pretty big upgrade in talent over those 3, and Darko is useful but expendable.

I cannot think of any reason to take on Calderon unless its in a package that returns Lebron/Durant/Melo type player. He's like Ridnour but a better playmaker and gets paid twice as much where Luke is a way better shooter and neither plays a lick of defense. I dont see the point here.

jade_hippo wrote:I cannot think of any reason to take on Calderon unless its in a package that returns Lebron/Durant/Melo type player. He's like Ridnour but a better playmaker and gets paid twice as much where Luke is a way better shooter and neither plays a lick of defense. I dont see the point here.

The point I'm guessing is to have Calderon "mentor" Rubio instead of Ridnour and to add the ideal backup SG that can run and has experience. Webster is solid and losing Darko will only hurt us more unless we find an upgraded C.

jade_hippo wrote:I cannot think of any reason to take on Calderon unless its in a package that returns Lebron/Durant/Melo type player. He's like Ridnour but a better playmaker and gets paid twice as much where Luke is a way better shooter and neither plays a lick of defense. I dont see the point here.

o_O Whatchu talkin bout Willis

Ridnour, age 30
Career stats per 36:
13.1 points, 6.7 assists, 3.2 rebounds
FG% .430, 3PT% .362, TS% .520, FT% .866

Calderon, age 29
Career stats per 36:
12.7 points, 9.7 assists, 3.5 rebounds
FG% .486, 3PT% .383, TS% .573, FT% .874

This isn't even remotely close. Calderon is a better scorer and passer and even a slightly better rebounder. He's a starter for a reason, and Ridnour is a backup for a reason.

FTR, I used per 36 to give equalize Ridnour's stats, as Calderon has been a starter and Ridnour a backup the last 4 years. Calderon's last 4 years of 3 point shooting?
42.9%
40.6%
39.8%
36.5%

Ridnour's last 4 years 3 point shooting?
29.6% (over 61 games)
35.0%
38.1%
44.0%

Calderon is the better shooter. He just had a bad shooting year last year. Even so, his career TS% is better than Ridnour's BEST YEAR. Although credit to Ridnour, he's clearly improved his shooting and is now probably a top 30 PG.

And since you're talking about Calderon's salary, salary is the reason I like this trade.

Darko Milicic: Owed 15.7 mil over 3 years
Martel Webster: 10.9 mil
Luke Ridnour: 12 mil
Total: $38,642,500 over 3 years

Darko is guaranteed $16 mil out of 20, so if you cut Darko that's $34,642,500
Webster is guaranteed only $600,000 his 2nd year, so that drops it to about $29.5 million.
Calderon + Barbosa are owed $27,942,978.

If you drop Darko and Webster, you are paying about $25.3 million dollars for 1 year of Webster, 2 years of Darko, and 2 years of Ridnour vs 27.9 mil for 1 year of Barbosa and 2 years of Calderon (AND you have about $7 million dollars hitting your cap on the 3rd year from Darko's buyout + Ridnour).

So the difference in money over 2 years is negligible, and long term it is a cap savings (although year 2's cap number is lower, while year 3's cap number is higher). And IMO Malcom Lee will be a good backup combo guard behind Rubio so 2 years is all we'll need from our backup veteran PG.

Further more, if Rubio doesn't work out we have a legitimate starting PG in Calderon. Ridnour is a very good backup, but Calderon is a solid starter who won't cost 10 million a year to extend.

So the real question's are...
Who do you want playing shooting guard for 1 year? Webster or Barbosa?
and
Would you rather have Calderon for 2 years, or Ridnour and Darko for 2 years at relatively the same price?

It's that simple. If you would rather have Ridnour and Darko, I understand that. But I think Calderon is significantly better than Ridnour, and Darko is replaceable. If you disagree that's cool, it's a reasonable position.

I'm not a fan.

Calderon is definitely a better PG than Ridnour. However his contract is huge and I like Ridnour as a backup PG. He's perfect in that role. High FG/FT%'s, decent passer.

At their current price I prefer Ridnour over Calderon.
Barbosa? I haven't watched many games from Toronto last season. I heard he declined, though. Not as good as in PHX days anymore. And considering he's undersized I don't know if he's any better than Webster. At least he might be able to play more often , though.

Darko Milicic I feel is someone we can't trade. Not because of his greatness as a player but because we have nobody who can fill the void to protect the rim. Pek? Certainly not. Randolph? Not focussed enough on defense. Tolliver? Not strong and big enough. Love? Obviously not.
Unless we have the option to trade for a defensive minded C - upgrade (Tyson Chandler for example) I feel like we can't trade Darko. We simply need a big that can defend the paint.

Foye wrote:I'm not a fan.

Calderon is definitely a better PG than Ridnour. However his contract is huge and I like Ridnour as a backup PG. He's perfect in that role. High FG/FT%'s, decent passer.

At their current price I prefer Ridnour over Calderon.
Barbosa? I haven't watched many games from Toronto last season. I heard he declined, though. Not as good as in PHX days anymore. And considering he's undersized I don't know if he's any better than Webster. At least he might be able to play more often , though.

Darko Milicic I feel is someone we can't trade. Not because of his greatness as a player but because we have nobody who can fill the void to protect the rim. Pek? Certainly not. Randolph? Not focussed enough on defense. Tolliver? Not strong and big enough. Love? Obviously not.
Unless we have the option to trade for a defensive minded C - upgrade (Tyson Chandler for example) I feel like we can't trade Darko. We simply need a big that can defend the paint.

So, if we couple this trade with a Brendan Haywood trade you'd like it better?
Something like Anthony Randolph and Barbosa (3 way trade)
for
Brendan Haywood and Rudy Fernandez

By taking Haywood's salary (it's a big, long contract), this gives Dallas the ability to resign both Tyson Chandler and Caron Butler without a long term luxury tax hit. Haywood has something like a 4 year, 35 million dollar contract and IMO they just can't afford him and Chandler.

Haywood/Pekovic
Love/Tolliver
Beasley/Williams
Johnson/Fernandez
Rubio/Calderon

I don't know if Dallas likes that trade or not, but Barbosa's is a good backup combo guard and an expiring contract, and Randolph is a good backup PF/C with the potential to be a good starter in the future (especially with another 20 lbs) and an expiring contract with a $4 mil QO.

Just a thought.

I suppose I should elaborate.

Let's assume Caron Butler and Tyson Chandler cost $15 million a year to resign. I think that's reasonable.

Dallas would be over $80 mil this year hands down if they resigned them both.
Next year...
Dirk Nowitzki, Shawn Marion, Brendan Haywood, Corey Brewer, Beaubois, and Dominic Jones are at almost $45 million. Add $15 mil to that for Chandler/Butler, and those 8 players = 60 million. Resign Jason Kidd and Jason Terry, a 1st round pick, and some role players and you're at 80 mil again.

Dallas simply can't afford both Haywood and Chandler. So they make this trade, use Randolph as a very cheap bench player ($2 mil), and use their amnesty clauses on either Jason Terry ($11.4 mil) or Barbosa ($7.6 mil) and drop to $70-75 mil this year. Assuming there is a graduating luxury tax, costing them $3 dollars for every dollar between 70-75 mil and $4 for every dollar after $75 million, amnesty clausing Jason Terry saves Dallas about $40 million. That's right, $40 million. Amnesty clausing Barbosa saves them about $30 million.

And next year, with a cheap Randolph off the bench and Haywood's salary gone, you can afford to resign Kidd for another 2 year run and either Terry or Barbosa (whoever they keep).

I don't mind Darko's deal in the 4's .. that's the price of a back-up center with size in today's NBA. Webster is probably over-priced with his injury risk, but I think of him as an expiring with only $600,000 guaranteed. Barbosa's a bit overpriced, but expiring as well. At best, I call that a draw, so for me, it comes down to Ridnour or Calderon.

Regardless of how Rubio does, Kahn has to play him because he'll sell tickets. That means that we're asking which PG is a better back-up PG .. Ridnour at $12 mil for three years, or Calderon (with his 10% trade kicker) at $32.3 mil for three years?

Calderon is better, but he's not worth 2-3 times as much as Ridnour, especially if he's coming off the bench most of those three years.

I did not realize Calderon had a 10% trade kicker, and that definitely changes the value of the deal.

But I don't agree with your evaluation at all Shrink. Adelman doesn't have to play jack. If Rubio isn't up to snuff, Adelman will play Calderon. And screw Rubio, having a great coach get us to the playoffs is what is going to sell tickets and save Kahn's job. Like I said, if Rubio flops Calderon is a very good plan B. Ridnour, on the other hand, is a very bad plan B for a starting PG if Rubio flops. And while I think Rubio's potential is very high, his bust chance is also pretty high.

And as far as I'm concerned, having 1 good starter is better than having 2 bad ones. Having 6 good starters is better than having 5 good starters and 2 bad ones too. Quality is always better than quantity in the NBA. And while Darko is "servicable" and Ridnour is "servicable" there is absolutely no question Calderon is a hell of a lot better than either of them.

Get Calderon, trade for a good C like Haywood, and trade for a good SG and THEN hope Rubio is an all star. If not, you still have a good team that Adelman can get to the playoffs. No point in putting all your eggs in one basket when you can have the sure thing AND have the high potential player on the side.

Narf wrote:So, if we couple this trade with a Brendan Haywood trade you'd like it better?
Something like Anthony Randolph and Barbosa (3 way trade)
for
Brendan Haywood and Rudy Fernandez

By taking Haywood's salary (it's a big, long contract), this gives Dallas the ability to resign both Tyson Chandler and Caron Butler without a long term luxury tax hit. Haywood has something like a 4 year, 35 million dollar contract and IMO they just can't afford him and Chandler.

Haywood/Pekovic
Love/Tolliver
Beasley/Williams
Johnson/Fernandez
Rubio/Calderon

I don't know if Dallas likes that trade or not, but Barbosa's is a good backup combo guard and an expiring contract, and Randolph is a good backup PF/C with the potential to be a good starter in the future (especially with another 20 lbs) and an expiring contract with a $4 mil QO.

Just a thought.

Uh. I really don't know about that. I'm not even sure about how good Haywood is still. He's almost 32 and has a monster contract. I'm not sure if I want to spend my money for a 32 y/o who will only get worse at this point of his career. Add in that he hasn't really played much last season. That makes me really skeptic about him.
Now if he was 26 or 27 he would probably be a guy I would target as a Center. At 32 with min. 35 mil. $ left on his contract not so much.

I would target Tyson Chandler and Marc Gasol with a big contract this offseason if possible. It's unlikely that we can get one of those two on the Wolves but hey everyone was telling us Rubio wouldn't come over and who would've thought that we could sign Rick Adelman?
If that doesn't work out then I would target Nene, Dalembert or Chuck Hayes.
Need to be quick in FA though to get any of these guys.
By trade, I would go after Okafor, Varejao or Bogut. I feel like these guys are realistic, too, if we offer a good package. Okafor is going to be pissed once CP3 gets traded at the deadline. His contract is big but not too long anymore. Brad Miller + Martell Webster and a 1st rounder should be enough to get him. Salary savings (by cutting Miller and Webster) are going to be a priority for the Hornets once CP3 is gone.
Bogut right now is probably unavailable but if the Bucks miss the playoffs next year then he's definitely becoming available. I thought the Bucks were dumb to not cash in this offseason on Bogut anyway. Instead they got Stephen Jackson and try to win now again. They're build to be a team in the middle of nowhere.

I'm down. I thought breaking down defenses was our main weakness last year and I don't rely on Rubio to single-handedly change that. Especially would like having Barbosa, gives Wes more SF minutes too.

Darko isnt that important, go sign Przybilla

I think Shrink nailed this one. It's a no-go.

I'd also add that Calderon looks like TOR's best choice to amnesty, since his whole salary would become raw cap space.

shrink wrote:I'd also add that Calderon looks like TOR's best choice to amnesty, since his whole salary would become raw cap space.

There's no way we'd sign Calderon if they did, and I'm fairly sure Toronto would rather do this trade than amnesty him. So I'd say that's a non-factor.

There are a lot of people who think Randolph should be given the starting C job over Darko, especially since he's (allegedly) put on 15 lbs of muscle this off season. And I personally think Pekovic will be better than Darko next year. So from my point of view, this is trading our backup center and our backup PG for a good NBA starting PG. That is if you agree that Webster for Barbosa is basically a wash.

But clearly I'm in the minority thinking it's a good trade I guess I'll just agree to disagree.

Based on the track record of Darko, Pek, and Randolph I don't think we're in a position to just willy nilly pencil anyone in as a starting center. Darko is the only one that's ever shown he's capable of that job in a single game before.

Krapinsky wrote:Based on the track record of Darko, Pek, and Randolph I don't think we're in a position to just willy nilly pencil anyone in as a starting center. Darko is the only one that's ever shown he's capable of that job in a single game before.

Clearly I value our players differently.
Just out of curiosity, if it was Pekovic instead of Darko would people like the deal?
Pekovic + Ridnour for Calderon?

Narf wrote: He just had a bad shooting year last year. .

Is it really a coincidence he had a bad shooting year when he no longer had Bosh? (we really don't have anything like Bosh for defenses to collapse upon either)