ImageImageImage

Iowa Wolves/G League talk

Moderators: Domejandro, Calinks, Worm Guts

Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#581 » by Jedzz » Thu Jan 7, 2021 1:04 am

WolfAddict wrote:Logging in, I did NOT expect the G League thread to be a debate about the definition of the term "slavery"... But, these are strange times I suppose...


Well if the shoe fits. These people apparently want to argue it has no place here. But if you aren't willing to call it out when you see it, the exploitation, slavery or whatever you want to call it would never end. People have proved time and again they will take advantage of others if allowed to.
User avatar
WolfAddict
Junior
Posts: 293
And1: 301
Joined: Sep 18, 2019
Location: Canberra, Australia
     

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#582 » by WolfAddict » Thu Jan 7, 2021 1:10 am

Jedzz wrote:
WolfAddict wrote:Logging in, I did NOT expect the G League thread to be a debate about the definition of the term "slavery"... But, these are strange times I suppose...


Well if the shoe fits. These people apparently want to argue it has no place here. But if you aren't willing to call it out when you see it, the exploitation, slavery or whatever you want to call it would never end. People have proved time and again they will take advantage of others if allowed to.

Oh I get it brother, I really do. I just think there's a time and place, and in my humblest of opinions, the G League thread isn't it.

But I'm not going to say you CAN'T talk about whatever you want to, it was just an observation
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#583 » by Jedzz » Thu Jan 7, 2021 1:44 am

WolfAddict wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
WolfAddict wrote:Logging in, I did NOT expect the G League thread to be a debate about the definition of the term "slavery"... But, these are strange times I suppose...


Well if the shoe fits. These people apparently want to argue it has no place here. But if you aren't willing to call it out when you see it, the exploitation, slavery or whatever you want to call it would never end. People have proved time and again they will take advantage of others if allowed to.

Oh I get it brother, I really do. I just think there's a time and place, and in my humblest of opinions, the G League thread isn't it.

But I'm not going to say you CAN'T talk about whatever you want to, it was just an observation


Yeah well it's not just a soap box. It was an option for a great season this year down the tubes. "Hey you know what? We can force this guy to stay for peanuts and that way still fit two more guards in here under the cap!" Hooray! Me: We didn't even need one more, and we stayed over anyway.
User avatar
urinesane
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,455
And1: 2,337
Joined: May 10, 2010
 

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#584 » by urinesane » Thu Jan 7, 2021 6:58 pm

Jedzz wrote:
urinesane wrote:Exploitation is not slavery and being extra hyperbolic to emphasize your point doesn't help. Don't be so dramatic.

Now NCAA sports...
Exploitation might be one word for it. But Exploitation might just be a more modern term for slavery as well. Are you the authority on what is and what isn't? As noted, there on a piece of paper somewhere he was labeled RFA by this GM. So they own his future. (unlike someone like Martin who they recinded the QO for to release/) But unlike everyone else above two way deals, he doesn't even have a League Minimum guaranteed deal for playing for them. What on earth are the NBA League minimum and Vet minimums for if they are just going to create a class of players that don't even deserve that.

What is modern slavery? Read about it.

Modern slavery is the severe exploitation of other people for personal or commercial gain. ...From the outside, it can look like a normal job. But people are being controlled –


People could make an argument that Two Way deals help more players enter this league and give them a chance at the NBA. But that same argument is going to fall flat on its face when examples of players stuck on these two way deals forever, getting used for multiple seasons comes up. RFA rules should not be usable on players that never got a real deal in the firstt place. A team should be forced to make a choice to keep or release after a first Two Way is used on a player. If they keep them, then League Minimum is the minimum and the amount is rated by years in the league. Which is another question, does a player on a Two Way such as JMac last season get counted for a year served? How about the year served in the Gleague prior with Nets? Regardless, there is a minimum deal that should have at least been offered. They didn't, and they exploited his situation and kept him below the League poverty line of Minimums.


If you REALLY think that making $80,000 for one year of mostly sitting on a bench and otherwise putting a ball through a metal ring is SLAVERY, we should probably just stop talking.

All you do here is argue your point (whatever it is) into the ground. Why not just start a blog so opinions that differ from yours don't take up so much of your time? It's obvious you're never interested in actually having a discussion or looking at your own biases with any objectivity. I may as well just add you to the ignore list, because you're generally just cranky and not enjoyable to interact with, regardless of where you fall on any given subject.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#585 » by Jedzz » Thu Jan 7, 2021 10:03 pm

urinesane wrote:
If you REALLY think that making $80,000 for one year of mostly sitting on a bench and otherwise putting a ball through a metal ring is SLAVERY, we should probably just stop talking.


Oh give me a break. 80k is 0.016% of say a throw away deal like Davis' 5MM 1yr. JMac helped carry the team through an injury riddled season last year and already played significant minutes this year in the first weeks. Right along all the players making obscene amounts for dribbling a ball. You want to make light of my concern for his treatment because "he makes plenty" to you? Than how would you compare the others' contracts for 75% losses.

Why should other Gleague players for the Iowa Wolves, if they survive the stoppage, feel like they are working towards something more?

Just because my opinions have teeth seems to bother you, I'm not doing anything that others are not. They and you just unload your opinions all day and you don't see me trying to stop you. I'll disgree if it sounds loopy. Like you think you are doing with me now. You aren't anything special and I don't believe I am.

This POBO added Davis for 5 M for no other real reason except to have a 5million trade asset. Now they feel like the must play him?

THey could have signed JMac to a one year 5 Million deal instead of Davis and that contract would add reality to his actual talent value. Right now with a team like Orlando and others losing PGs he could be utilizing that and never end up even paying it. He could br bringing back someone this team needs more of. Instead, he's nothing but a two way that nobody in the league respects due to that deal. Can't make any moves with it. Without doing something like that they didn't even need him on the team with this guard overload.

I don't care what you think of me or my complaints. I've got reasons to post them. Your sorry excuse for posts on your bad days are no longer worth my time. Don't bother quoting me to tell me you don't want to talk.
User avatar
urinesane
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,455
And1: 2,337
Joined: May 10, 2010
 

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#586 » by urinesane » Thu Jan 7, 2021 11:38 pm

Whatever you posted, just know.

Image

https://ibb.co/BnS3NDc
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#587 » by Jedzz » Thu Jan 7, 2021 11:50 pm

:lol:
old school 34
Junior
Posts: 331
And1: 141
Joined: Jun 14, 2018
         

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#588 » by old school 34 » Fri Jan 8, 2021 3:48 am

Jedzz wrote:
urinesane wrote:
If you REALLY think that making $80,000 for one year of mostly sitting on a bench and otherwise putting a ball through a metal ring is SLAVERY, we should probably just stop talking.


Oh give me a break. 80k is 0.016% of say a throw away deal like Davis' 5MM 1yr. JMac helped carry the team through an injury riddled season last year and already played significant minutes this year in the first weeks. Right along all the players making obscene amounts for dribbling a ball. You want to make light of my concern for his treatment because "he makes plenty" to you? Than how would you compare the others' contracts for 75% losses.

Why should other Gleague players for the Iowa Wolves, if they survive the stoppage, feel like they are working towards something more?

Just because my opinions have teeth seems to bother you, I'm not doing anything that others are not. They and you just unload your opinions all day and you don't see me trying to stop you. I'll disgree if it sounds loopy. Like you think you are doing with me now. You aren't anything special and I don't believe I am.

This POBO added Davis for 5 M for no other real reason except to have a 5million trade asset. Now they feel like the must play him?

THey could have signed JMac to a one year 5 Million deal instead of Davis and that contract would add reality to his actual talent value. Right now with a team like Orlando and others losing PGs he could be utilizing that and never end up even paying it. He could br bringing back someone this team needs more of. Instead, he's nothing but a two way that nobody in the league respects due to that deal. Can't make any moves with it. Without doing something like that they didn't even need him on the team with this guard overload.

I don't care what you think of me or my complaints. I've got reasons to post them. Your sorry excuse for posts on your bad days are no longer worth my time. Don't bother quoting me to tell me you don't want to talk.
Jedzz...I can see both sides on the rights of the 2-way guys after their first deal. I tend to think that if you don't incentivise the teams to develop these types by giving them some rfa controls...less teams will even use this as an option, maybe? It will be interesting how it evolves...JMac is really the first guy that's really gone down this path...in an attempt to skip that typical next contract for the 2-way success stories...interested to see how if it changes....but can't agree that:

1. Wolves did anything wrong here...most teams would've offered the same deal...remember, the 2-way contract still was his choice....you can say both offers sucked...but he did choose this path.

2. Can't agree with the choice of using the word....slavery. You can argue all you want about definitions, myself personally that's just is a word reserved for something way worse & just becomes to casual & wreckless to be in some way making that comp.

Last point though....specific to your point about him not being tradeable....could he not be traded technically in a sign & trade deal still ultimately? We can convert him @ any point, have an open roster spot....never seen something exactly like this...but in theory...I think it could be done if so desired, I think (maybe in sign & trade deal...do both teams become hard capped)?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#589 » by Jedzz » Fri Jan 8, 2021 5:01 am

old school 34 wrote:Jedzz...I can see both sides on the rights of the 2-way guys after their first deal. I tend to think that if you don't incentivise the teams to develop these types by giving them some rfa controls...less teams will even use this as an option, maybe? It will be interesting how it evolves...JMac is really the first guy that's really gone down this path...in an attempt to skip that typical next contract for the 2-way success stories...interested to see how if it changes....but can't agree that:

1. Wolves did anything wrong here...most teams would've offered the same deal...remember, the 2-way contract still was his choice....you can say both offers sucked...but he did choose this path.

2. Can't agree with the choice of using the word....slavery. You can argue all you want about definitions, myself personally that's just is a word reserved for something way worse & just becomes to casual & wreckless to be in some way making that comp.

Last point though....specific to your point about him not being tradeable....could he not be traded technically in a sign & trade deal still ultimately? We can convert him @ any point, have an open roster spot....never seen something exactly like this...but in theory...I think it could be done if so desired, I think (maybe in sign & trade deal...do both teams become hard capped)?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app


I'll work backwards on this post a bit while our Wolves are sucking again against Portland atm.

Your last point, Actually paying him leads creedence to his actual talent. This league is so shallow. Placing him on Twoway for second season in a row just robs him of the respect he deserved for what he showed last season. Nobody takes notice around the league, his own coach doesn't even respect him. Everyone knows minutes come with Money in this league. He only played last year because of significant injury. But his play proved more worthy. That whole entire idea that they could use this situation to keep yet another guard on this team this cheaply while it leaving another roster spot open for...WHO...is just a joke. This is typical wizbang Timberwolves "I win benig a crafty GM" garbage. Why? Because it was useless to do it with another guard given the roster. He also becomes a valueless player in trades for matching reasons and it betrays his playing value at the same time, he's not an asset now.

2. I'll disagree. You can use the exploitation term that urinestain used if that works better for you. I don't really care. But it is just wrong.

1. Wolves never do anything wrong, I know. Many, many examples already in the short lifespan of the Two Way deals option of players earning a REAL nba deal starting off Two Way entrance. Doesn't matter if it's a large or small deal, but this should be the entire point of having this option. To find usable talent you keep and turn into real players. The point absolutely should not be to have a slave class of cheaper yet players that POBO/GMs can exploit like fodder repeatedly each year. Since it costs the team virtually nothing to do so, they can keep giving two new players a shot each season at minutes in the big league. This gives them a great chance to see if they can play at this level or not. If they can't, you move on. What Rosas is doing with him is straight up wrong.

They don't need to "develop" players with two way deals. They can actually do that letting the players stay in the Gleague. Just try for a second understanding that. Allowing them to RFA a gleague player they've already tested with a Two Way is creating longer term slave class. To call it anything else is looking the other way and it's wrong. Players in the Gleague without a real NBA deal or two way in place should be accessible by any team willing to test them on their roster. For a comparison, the NFL employs ways to allow this type of thing while also helping to make sure a player found by team X and placed in practice squad isn't stolen from another team just to be placed on their practice squad and slaved there. If Team Y nabs your practice squad player they must place them on their real team roster, but they can. The player this way has an avenue available to him to earn a real roster spot somewhere. But if Rosas can RFA such a player for multiple years, that player has no ability to improve his station.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,270
And1: 12,325
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#590 » by Klomp » Sat Jan 9, 2021 6:29 pm

Jedzz wrote:Players in the Gleague without a real NBA deal or two way in place should be accessible by any team willing to test them on their roster. For a comparison, the NFL employs ways to allow this type of thing while also helping to make sure a player found by team X and placed in practice squad isn't stolen from another team just to be placed on their practice squad and slaved there. If Team Y nabs your practice squad player they must place them on their real team roster, but they can. The player this way has an avenue available to him to earn a real roster spot somewhere. But if Rosas can RFA such a player for multiple years, that player has no ability to improve his station.

Teams can block another team from signing their practice squad guy, just like the RFA matching.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 12,130
And1: 2,511
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#591 » by KGdaBom » Sat Jan 9, 2021 7:35 pm

There was a time that sports had no free agents. The players were pretty much the property of the team in perpetuity until the team decided to trade the player. That system was mostly implemented with white players, because for a long time Black players weren't allowed that "slavery". That in no way was slavery, but it was pretty unfair. Now the deals between the teams and the players are collectively bargained. The players mutually agreed to this system with the teams. No slavery. This system has worked out very well for many players. So far it doesn't appear to have worked out well for J Mc. No slavery. I'd trade my employment situation for his in a heartbeat.
Norseman79
Pro Prospect
Posts: 885
And1: 273
Joined: Jul 26, 2017
     

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#592 » by Norseman79 » Sat Jan 9, 2021 9:51 pm

Bottom line, players choose to sign a contract. That is not forced. No matter what career you enter, if you sign a contract you are giving up something for something in return. Is it fair, not always, but when you don't have a contract, and no one else is offering you one, you can take what you get or leave it and go play somewhere else....or even get a different job...the players are "free" to do that.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#593 » by Jedzz » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:05 pm

Norseman79 wrote:Bottom line, players choose to sign a contract. That is not forced. No matter what career you enter, if you sign a contract you are giving up something for something in return. Is it fair, not always, but when you don't have a contract, and no one else is offering you one, you can take what you get or leave it and go play somewhere else....or even get a different job...the players are "free" to do that.


No, when he's a RFA he can't just go play somewhere else in this league.

With this post you completely ignore all prior points about why no teams throw offers at these players until FA is over if ever. I'm not suprised and I won't be surprised when you get 6 upvotes for such a terrible post here.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#594 » by Jedzz » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:11 pm

Whatever. It's like talking to a bunch of trumpers when it comes to Gleaguers. Eyes and ears closed, just repeating something stupid they heard said once, true or false doesn't matter. Almost none of you actually would put two cents in the skill/value that truly could be found from players sneaking in this way, or admit true value when they show it. They didn't come through the draft so there really is not point discussing these guys with some of you. I'll just stay out of this thread here. There is really no point this thread even being here. All the positive bs posts made here are a joke when you apply them to what you guys would ever entertain the idea of them making in the real league or something crazy like earning a starting role. What a waste of time and phony posts on this topic.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,270
And1: 12,325
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#595 » by Klomp » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:13 pm

Jedzz wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:Bottom line, players choose to sign a contract. That is not forced. No matter what career you enter, if you sign a contract you are giving up something for something in return. Is it fair, not always, but when you don't have a contract, and no one else is offering you one, you can take what you get or leave it and go play somewhere else....or even get a different job...the players are "free" to do that.


No, when he's a RFA he can't just go play somewhere else in this league.

With this post you completely ignore all prior points about why no teams throw offers at these players until FA is over if ever. I'm not suprised and I won't be surprised when you get 6 upvotes for such a terrible post here.

If he signed a contract that Minnesota decided not to match, he would be playing somewhere else. That's how Minnesota got Jake Layman, who was a RFA.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 10,541
And1: 2,236
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#596 » by Jedzz » Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:23 pm

Klomp wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:Bottom line, players choose to sign a contract. That is not forced. No matter what career you enter, if you sign a contract you are giving up something for something in return. Is it fair, not always, but when you don't have a contract, and no one else is offering you one, you can take what you get or leave it and go play somewhere else....or even get a different job...the players are "free" to do that.


No, when he's a RFA he can't just go play somewhere else in this league.

With this post you completely ignore all prior points about why no teams throw offers at these players until FA is over if ever. I'm not suprised and I won't be surprised when you get 6 upvotes for such a terrible post here.

If he signed a contract that Minnesota decided not to match, he would be playing somewhere else. That's how Minnesota got Jake Layman, who was a RFA.


Layman had been with Portland 3 years already and played 71 games the season prior to Wolves. For Portland, he had already played out a real 3 /3.4 deal that was ending 2019. They moved him to Wolves in a Sign/Trade.

From Spotrac:
Jake Layman signed a 3 year / $11,283,255 contract with the Portland Trail Blazers, including $11,283,255 guaranteed, and an annual average salary of $3,761,085.


Everyone just post junk in this thread. Not just being wrong, but this like every other example has no tie to JMac's situation. All the examples I offered showed players that earned real deals off once getting a chance on a two way entrance from the Gleague, or otherwise relevant size/talent comparisons to bonofide long time vets of this league. But let's just ignore all those and throw more useless unrelated and wrong examples back. maybe I'll go away, Right? You win. This thread and everyone posting in it trying to suggest they have any interest in the Gleague players can go fly a kite in my opinion. Most of it seems like intellectual dishonesty or maybe it's just something you view as a circus sideshow. But when I've seen so many posts showing interest in some of these players and then also find out how far some of you will go to disregard the actual value of their play, it just doesn't compute that you have any interest in them joining the real team in any kind of real capacity, ever.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,270
And1: 12,325
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#597 » by Klomp » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:28 pm

Read on Twitter
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,270
And1: 12,325
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#598 » by Klomp » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:29 pm

The Westchester Knicks selected Justin Patton
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,270
And1: 12,325
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#599 » by Klomp » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:32 pm

Read on Twitter


Also undrafted: Jacob Evans
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
minimus
General Manager
Posts: 8,735
And1: 2,289
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: Iowa Wolves/G League talk 

Post#600 » by minimus » Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:41 pm

Klomp wrote:The Westchester Knicks selected Justin Patton


NYK (Thibs) need more bigmen!

Return to Minnesota Timberwolves