The Gorgui Dieng Thread

[Klomp]

That is BS, come on

There was $1 Billion dollars available in 2016 FA

Only about $300 mil available in 2017 (Only about $200 mil available league wide in 2018 FA)

What you're talking about is dropped the $ available at most $40-50 million, the salary cap coming in $2 mil less than expected

the rest of the drop was spent and on the books already

This was known last Oct, not hindsight

I'm not just talking about this year. Dieng's higher salary the next year or two doesn't matter as much now because Wiggins and Towns aren't to their extensions.

Previous estimates were about $10 million higher than the cap ended up being this year. No doubt the estimates had the cap continuing to jump.

[MN7725]

That is BS, come on

There was $1 Billion dollars available in 2016 FA

Only about $300 mil available in 2017 (Only about $200 mil available league wide in 2018 FA)

What you're talking about is dropped the $ available at most $40-50 million, the salary cap coming in $2 mil less than expected

the rest of the drop was spent and on the books already

This was known last Oct, not hindsight

I'm not just talking about this year. Dieng's higher salary the next year or two doesn't matter as much now because Wiggins and Towns aren't to their extensions.

Previous estimates were about $10 million higher than the cap ended up being this year. No doubt the estimates had the cap continuing to jump.

I thought it was going to be $102 mil in '17-18, up from $90 in '16-17, and $109 mil in '18-'19

Regardless, there was going to be significantly less $$ available in 2017 because of what was spent in 2016. That was known.
Teams like Por, Was, Cha, Det etc were going to be capped out no matter what the salary cap # came in at

At the time of extension, I looked at what was available in 2017 and figured only 10 teams would have $$ to even offer Dieng that starting year salary in 2017 FA and only Dallas was the team that would have made any sense to do so

Setting all that aside, since Dieng getting 4 yr/$64 mil or getting less $, even significantly less in an extension doesn't really matter

Good for Gorgui, good for any player to get as much $ as they can


2017 was the year to make moves in FA because of Wig/KAT's coming extensions, Wolves will be capped out for the forseeable future. This was obvious

Dieng had a tiny cap hold due to his low draft position

What sense did it make to give that up?

Giving up $8.5 mil difference in Dieng's cap hold/extension in THE offseason that the team could make FA moves is indefensible imo and the cap going up or down didn't change that

[shrink]

it's easy to not give extensions to unvaluable players, thinking that they are replaceable. Hey, there are a lot of centers in the market right now. However, I would suggest that these low post scoring, no defense playing centers are a relic. I would also point to DIeng's experience with Thibs system, and the stats I just posted, to show that Dieng isn't easily replaceable.

Even if he was replaceable, I also have heard it said that you can simply wait on RFA's, and let the market decide next year. Every team that believed that in 2016 was wrong, when the market spiked up. Remember, Dieng's extension came in the season when every NBA player was getting paid, and many believed Gorgui took a bit of a discount to stay in MIN where he's happy.

Look, I'm the biggest fan of cap space on MIN boards, and I was often teased about it over at Rube Chat. However, despite the loss of cap space, I admit I had no trouble with the Dieng contract at the time it was signed.

[Narf]

Sure I'll add to this.

Dieng went from a .601 TS% to a .555 TS% last year, but has a career .571 TS%. No one mentions he's a very good #3 scorer. I think playing 30 minutes off the bench will help his scoring efficiency significantly this year as well. He's better as a post scoring C, but I'll take him vs backup PFs anyday. Our bench is a good wing player away from being a nightmare for most teams. Which makes me really annoyed that we signed Crawford TBH.

Dieng was 21st in the NBA in rebounds per minute playing next to Towns, a dominant rebounding C. 18th in total rebounds due to his good health, 25th in Reb/gm due to his minutes.

Dieng has managed to put up an offensive rating 4-7 points higher than his defensive rating all 4 years, even when we were historically bad.

And he's not done improving. His effective age (in terms of improving) is probably 24 since he started playing team basketball in 2009.

[KGdaBom]

I have been reading a lot of posters claim how we are overpaying for Gorgui Dieng. Now that I see how much Mason Plumlee is getting Gorgui is a comparable Steal.

Mason Plumlee, Nuggets Agree Upon Three-Year, $41M Deal

Sep 18, 2017 10:58 AM





Mason Plumlee and the Denver Nuggets have agreed upon a three-year, $41 million contract.

Denver was able to avoid Plumlee signing a $4.6 million qualifying offer for the 2017-18 season that would have allowed him to become an unrestricted free agent next summer.

The Nuggets acquired Plumlee in February for Jusuf Nurkic and a first round pick.

Denver's frontcourt rotation consists of Nikola Jokic, Paul Millsap and Kenneth Faried along with Plumlee.

Plumlee a mediocre frontcourt backup is getting 14 Million a year. In that context Gorgui is worth at least 20. Now IMO this is just stupidity on Denver's part, but still Gorgui is well worth his 16 Million a year.

[AirP.]

I have been reading a lot of posters claim how we are overpaying for Gorgui Dieng. Now that I see how much Mason Plumlee is getting Gorgui is a comparable Steal.

Mason Plumlee, Nuggets Agree Upon Three-Year, $41M Deal

Sep 18, 2017 10:58 AM

Mason Plumlee and the Denver Nuggets have agreed upon a three-year, $41 million contract.

Denver was able to avoid Plumlee signing a $4.6 million qualifying offer for the 2017-18 season that would have allowed him to become an unrestricted free agent next summer.

The Nuggets acquired Plumlee in February for Jusuf Nurkic and a first round pick.

Denver's frontcourt rotation consists of Nikola Jokic, Paul Millsap and Kenneth Faried along with Plumlee.

Plumlee a mediocre frontcourt backup is getting 14 Million a year. In that context Gorgui is worth at least 20. Now IMO this is just stupidity on Denver's part, but still Gorgui is well worth his 16 Million a year.

Dieng or Plumlee aren't a problem this year(and their contracts are solid deals in a vacuum), next year is when the problems start for both Minnesota and Denver. Wiggins and Jokic will be getting max deals instead of their rookie contract numbers and with that it puts both franchises in tough positions cap wise. If both franchises are "fine" going into the tax in the near future there's not much of a problem but man, do those max contracts really eat into the money for the rest of the team.

[Klomp]

Dieng or Plumlee aren't a problem this year(and their contracts are solid deals in a vacuum), next year is when the problems start for both Minnesota and Denver. Wiggins and Jokic will be getting max deals instead of their rookie contract numbers and with that it puts both franchises in tough positions cap wise. If both franchises are "fine" going into the tax in the near future there's not much of a problem but man, do those max contracts really eat into the money for the rest of the team.

The tax is not likely to be a major problem for Minnesota next season.

WITH Wiggins maxed and all options picked up, it adds up to $121,723,394 for 11 players, on a luxury tax projected at $124 million. I don't believe all options will be picked up, and waiving Aldrich would clear another $4.9 million.

[gandlogo]

I like Gorgui. Solid citizen in and out of the locker room. A good friend of mine has had Louisville season tickets for years so we still chat about him quite a bit. Gorgui is a nice role player - nothing more - and that's okay because that's how teams have success. He gets the concept that you can impact the game in lots of different areas. Solid shooter, but with a slow release. Not overly athletic either. Other than FT% I'd take Plumee all day long over him. This is personal preference, but I like my bigs physical and active, and able to attack the rim. I don't like them floating out to three-land. Work the posts (high and low), set screens, and hit the boards. But that's probably why I'm intrigued by what Patton can become.

[KGdaBom]

Dieng or Plumlee aren't a problem this year(and their contracts are solid deals in a vacuum), next year is when the problems start for both Minnesota and Denver. Wiggins and Jokic will be getting max deals instead of their rookie contract numbers and with that it puts both franchises in tough positions cap wise. If both franchises are "fine" going into the tax in the near future there's not much of a problem but man, do those max contracts really eat into the money for the rest of the team.

The tax is not likely to be a major problem for Minnesota next season.

WITH Wiggins maxed and all options picked up, it adds up to $121,723,394 for 11 players, on a luxury tax projected at $124 million. I don't believe all options will be picked up, and waiving Aldrich would clear another $4.9 million.

Thanks Klomp. I just get irritated by people acting like Gorgui is a hindrance to our success. I think he will be a very large part of our success.

[KGdaBom]

I like Gorgui. Solid citizen in and out of the locker room. A good friend of mine has had Louisville season tickets for years so we still chat about him quite a bit. Gorgui is a nice role player - nothing more - and that's okay because that's how teams have success. He gets the concept that you can impact the game in lots of different areas. Solid shooter, but with a slow release. Not overly athletic either. Other than FT% I'd take Plumee all day long over him. This is personal preference, but I like my bigs physical and active, and able to attack the rim. I don't like them floating out to three-land. Work the posts (high and low), set screens, and hit the boards. But that's probably why I'm intrigued by what Patton can become.

I could not disagree with you more than I do about Gorgui vs Plumlee. I would take Gorgui over Plumlee 7 days of the week and twice on Sundays.

[AirP.]

Dieng or Plumlee aren't a problem this year(and their contracts are solid deals in a vacuum), next year is when the problems start for both Minnesota and Denver. Wiggins and Jokic will be getting max deals instead of their rookie contract numbers and with that it puts both franchises in tough positions cap wise. If both franchises are "fine" going into the tax in the near future there's not much of a problem but man, do those max contracts really eat into the money for the rest of the team.

The tax is not likely to be a major problem for Minnesota next season.

WITH Wiggins maxed and all options picked up, it adds up to $121,723,394 for 11 players, on a luxury tax projected at $124 million. I don't believe all options will be picked up, and waiving Aldrich would clear another $4.9 million.

Thanks Klomp. I just get irritated by people acting like Gorgui is a hindrance to our success. I think he will be a very large part of our success.

But in 2 offseasons you'll have ~80 million wrapped up in 3 players in Towns, Butler and Wiggins, leaving very little money to fill up the roster around them, if Dieng is retained your now looking ~95-100 million in 4 players. At some point it's worth more to get more lower decent quality players(possibly rookie contract rotation players) then pay a 4th or 5th option 17 million. Hopefully your max players are worth more then their contracts, Towns looks like he should be, Butler should be, not sure about Wiggins, if he gets better at defense he could be. Man does that Payne trade hurt greatly, an extra 1st round pick would be very helpful in the future.

[Worm Guts]

The tax is not likely to be a major problem for Minnesota next season.

WITH Wiggins maxed and all options picked up, it adds up to $121,723,394 for 11 players, on a luxury tax projected at $124 million. I don't believe all options will be picked up, and waiving Aldrich would clear another $4.9 million.

Thanks Klomp. I just get irritated by people acting like Gorgui is a hindrance to our success. I think he will be a very large part of our success.

But in 2 offseasons you'll have ~80 million wrapped up in 3 players in Towns, Butler and Wiggins, leaving very little money to fill up the roster around them, if Dieng is retained your now looking ~95-100 million in 4 players. At some point it's worth more to get more lower decent quality players(possibly rookie contract rotation players) then pay a 4th or 5th option 17 million. Hopefully your max players are worth more then their contracts, Towns looks like he should be, Butler should be, not sure about Wiggins, if he gets better at defense he could be. Man does that Payne trade hurt greatly, an extra 1st round pick would be very helpful in the future.

You also won't have any caproom for new free agents. Ultimately you have fill out the roster somehow, whether that means finding cheap deals or going into the tax to pay the other decent players you have.

[AirP.]

Thanks Klomp. I just get irritated by people acting like Gorgui is a hindrance to our success. I think he will be a very large part of our success.

But in 2 offseasons you'll have ~80 million wrapped up in 3 players in Towns, Butler and Wiggins, leaving very little money to fill up the roster around them, if Dieng is retained your now looking ~95-100 million in 4 players. At some point it's worth more to get more lower decent quality players(possibly rookie contract rotation players) then pay a 4th or 5th option 17 million. Hopefully your max players are worth more then their contracts, Towns looks like he should be, Butler should be, not sure about Wiggins, if he gets better at defense he could be. Man does that Payne trade hurt greatly, an extra 1st round pick would be very helpful in the future.

You also won't have any caproom for new free agents. Ultimately you have fill out the roster somehow, whether that means finding cheap deals or going into the tax to pay the other decent players you have.

Well, I look around and I see GS with Curry and KD making max money(KD a little less, Curry designated vet) then after that Thompson at 18, Draymond at 16, Iggy 15 and the rest and they're over the tax. Minnesota is looking Wiggins 25+, Towns 25+ and Butler at 30+, that's way worse then what GS has had to deal with(although Curry's deal will basically make them move talent in the next couple of years). If Minnesota doesn't get past GS this year or next will the owner really go into the tax and possibly deep into the tax to have a competitive team that may be able to win it all in the next 5-7 years? A large market team sure, but Minnesota isn't a large market like NY, LA or Chicago(although they operate like a small market team for profits).

[Worm Guts]

But in 2 offseasons you'll have ~80 million wrapped up in 3 players in Towns, Butler and Wiggins, leaving very little money to fill up the roster around them, if Dieng is retained your now looking ~95-100 million in 4 players. At some point it's worth more to get more lower decent quality players(possibly rookie contract rotation players) then pay a 4th or 5th option 17 million. Hopefully your max players are worth more then their contracts, Towns looks like he should be, Butler should be, not sure about Wiggins, if he gets better at defense he could be. Man does that Payne trade hurt greatly, an extra 1st round pick would be very helpful in the future.

You also won't have any caproom for new free agents. Ultimately you have fill out the roster somehow, whether that means finding cheap deals or going into the tax to pay the other decent players you have.

Well, I look around and I see GS with Curry and KD making max money(KD a little less, Curry designated vet) then after that Thompson at 18, Draymond at 16, Iggy 15 and the rest and they're over the tax. Minnesota is looking Wiggins 25+, Towns 25+ and Butler at 30+, that's way worse then what GS has had to deal with(although Curry's deal will basically make them move talent in the next couple of years). If Minnesota doesn't get past GS this year or next will the owner really go into the tax and possibly deep into the tax to have a competitive team that may be able to win it all in the next 5-7 years? A large market team sure, but Minnesota isn't a large market like NY, LA or Chicago(although they operate like a small market team for profits).

GS has been lucky enough to have late developers like Thompson, Curry and Green and was able to lock them up at bargain prices. Our model may have to be closer to the KG Celtics. I think Taylor will go into the tax under the right circumstances, but ultimately we will have to make decisions on the fly. Gorgui's contract overlaps only 1 year with the potential of Towns Wiggins and Butler being paid the max.

[Klomp]

Well, I look around and I see GS with Curry and KD making max money(KD a little less, Curry designated vet) then after that Thompson at 18, Draymond at 16, Iggy 15 and the rest and they're over the tax. Minnesota is looking Wiggins 25+, Towns 25+ and Butler at 30+, that's way worse then what GS has had to deal with(although Curry's deal will basically make them move talent in the next couple of years). If Minnesota doesn't get past GS this year or next will the owner really go into the tax and possibly deep into the tax to have a competitive team that may be able to win it all in the next 5-7 years? A large market team sure, but Minnesota isn't a large market like NY, LA or Chicago(although they operate like a small market team for profits).

Funny how core guys around the league have taken less than the max in order to help the team (Durant in your example, and there have been others), yet there's no consideration of that as even being a possibility for Minnesota's core.

[Worm Guts]

Well, I look around and I see GS with Curry and KD making max money(KD a little less, Curry designated vet) then after that Thompson at 18, Draymond at 16, Iggy 15 and the rest and they're over the tax. Minnesota is looking Wiggins 25+, Towns 25+ and Butler at 30+, that's way worse then what GS has had to deal with(although Curry's deal will basically make them move talent in the next couple of years). If Minnesota doesn't get past GS this year or next will the owner really go into the tax and possibly deep into the tax to have a competitive team that may be able to win it all in the next 5-7 years? A large market team sure, but Minnesota isn't a large market like NY, LA or Chicago(although they operate like a small market team for profits).

Funny how core guys around the league have taken less than the max in order to help the team (Durant in your example, and there have been others), yet there's no consideration of that as even being a possibility for Minnesota's core.

I wouldn't expect Towns or Wiggins to take a discount on their first contract, Wiggins looks to be taking a full max any day now.

[Narf]

Well, I look around and I see GS with Curry and KD making max money(KD a little less, Curry designated vet) then after that Thompson at 18, Draymond at 16, Iggy 15 and the rest and they're over the tax. Minnesota is looking Wiggins 25+, Towns 25+ and Butler at 30+, that's way worse then what GS has had to deal with(although Curry's deal will basically make them move talent in the next couple of years). If Minnesota doesn't get past GS this year or next will the owner really go into the tax and possibly deep into the tax to have a competitive team that may be able to win it all in the next 5-7 years? A large market team sure, but Minnesota isn't a large market like NY, LA or Chicago(although they operate like a small market team for profits).

Funny how core guys around the league have taken less than the max in order to help the team (Durant in your example, and there have been others), yet there's no consideration of that as even being a possibility for Minnesota's core.

I wouldn't expect Towns or Wiggins to take a discount on their first contract, Wiggins looks to be taking a full max any day now.

That's a discount compared to the veteran max. When you start talking about 30% of the cap max things get a little different.

[Klomp]

Wasn't even talking about Wiggins. I've actually been saying all along that I believe Butler would be willing to take under the max in order to make the cap work.

[minimus]

Plumlee contract is easily one of the dumbest decision of this offseason. When other teams do not have money DEN paid backup C 41mil/3yrs. Gorgui vs Plumlee discussion is overpaid contract vs terrible contract. just imagine DEN situation next year, they will pay Millsap 30 mil, Jokic and Harris will ask for extension. Millsap can defend and score, Joker is top rising star in NBA. Why they signed Plumlee? I'd rather have Josh Richardson from MIA or KCP for similar money.

[AirP.]

Well, I look around and I see GS with Curry and KD making max money(KD a little less, Curry designated vet) then after that Thompson at 18, Draymond at 16, Iggy 15 and the rest and they're over the tax. Minnesota is looking Wiggins 25+, Towns 25+ and Butler at 30+, that's way worse then what GS has had to deal with(although Curry's deal will basically make them move talent in the next couple of years). If Minnesota doesn't get past GS this year or next will the owner really go into the tax and possibly deep into the tax to have a competitive team that may be able to win it all in the next 5-7 years? A large market team sure, but Minnesota isn't a large market like NY, LA or Chicago(although they operate like a small market team for profits).

Funny how core guys around the league have taken less than the max in order to help the team (Durant in your example, and there have been others), yet there's no consideration of that as even being a possibility for Minnesota's core.

A lot of those players are making tons of money off the court which don't come into play with the salary cap. It doesn't happen all that often to non large market teams.