TRADE: No. 7, LaVine, Dunn for Butler, 16

[King Malta]

I thought at the time it was a good trade for both teams. The assumption being that Butler would stick here and be the veteran leader we thought he would be. Instead, we got a prima donna that is poison on the roster. This will go down as one of the worst NBA trades of all time. I don't blame us for making that trade but the results speak for themselves.

That’s a lot of hyperbole. The trade got us a trip to the playoffs, plus whatever we get trading away Butler’s second year.

Precisely. If we traded, for example, Butler for Richardson and Whiteside (just an arbitrary trade that many have suggested), we'd technically have moved Lavine, Dunn and Maarkannen for Patton, Richardson, Whiteside and one season of Jimmy Butler. Not an amazing trade but hardly one of the worst of all time.

[Jedzz]

This year, with Zach’s big contract, he makes $1 mil less than Butler, plus Markannan and Dunn make about $9 mil more. Surprisingly, next year when Jimmy gets the supermax, he will cost about the same as the three players - starting at a little over $30 mil. Usually when you are young, you’re cheap, but Zach’s FA money and the CBA’s increase to rookie scale seem to have removed the financial advantages to this trade.

And I should point out that even though I’ve been a big fan of Zach’s work ethic ever since we got him, and enjoyed his offensive displays in CHI this year, he is still an abysmal defender. It’s not that he doesn’t put out effort .. it’s that he still doesn’t know where he’s supposed to be, or what he’s supposed to do. There is still a little room left in the NBA for abysmal defenders on $20 mil deals, if they are truly elite offensively. Zach has been almost elite, at least in the early parts of the season, so he may be worth that money. However, I think it’s easy for people who like Zach, like me, to use hindsight and compare him to the Wiggins contract and say how much better we would have been if we had traded Wiggins instead. Wiggins can score, and can defend somewhat, so the gap is not as big as it appears. Zach would not get all these offensive opportunities if he was still on this team, and his defense would hurt.

I don't know about all that. Wiggins shooting .23% at times hurts pretty bad. What defense he offers, steals...does that make up any kind of difference? We don't get rebounds from him often. Half his lakers game was pretty good offensively anyway. Lavine would get plenty of action here on this team full of players that can't go get their own. He would compete directly with how Rose plays right now. We would either not have Rose, or we would have two guys to play that way from the start and bench. Compare Wiggins to the guy we would replace him with.

[AirP.]

Glen Taylor went through a consultant to hire Thibs, so it's absolutely possible that from Thib's point of view that the owner was taking himself out of the equation of running the team since he took himself out of the hiring of the FO/Coach. The consultant was the one who said to give him POBO and Taylor went with it, Thibs didn't ask for it but obviously took it and the extra pay.

This is what I don't get, why would an owner take himself out of probably the MOST IMPORTANT hires and then once the FO is in place inject his ideas? Either the owner needs to be on the same page(who to build around) of the FO he hires or the owner needs to be completely out of the basketball decision making process.

No matter who the FO is, going through a consultant to hire a FO/Coach and then injecting your rules upon that FO is a recipe for disaster. It seems like everyone knew what Thibodeau wanted to do EXCEPT the Glen Taylor.

The franchise killer isn't Thibs(he was open to moving Wiggins which the owner was not), I get you don't like Thibs or his style, but without Taylor's interference in the basketball decisions you would have LaVine right now and probably Markkanen and be seeing Wiggins playing for Chicago with a max contract. Chicago wanted Wiggins more than LaVine at the time.

You still acting like Thibs only realized Wiggins unavailabilty once he wanted to make the trade for Butler. If that was the case he is more dumb than I imagine. One of the things he should have talk with Taylor at his signing is:
"Owner, what players do you want to build around?"
If the owner said Andrian Payne he should have said "I dont want the job". If it was Wiggins you say "Ok, so I should make an strategy to ease Wiggins transition into a positive NBA player". Signing Teague, Crawford, Taj and pick Patton wasnt going to help to:
Give Jimmy a max
Space the floor for Wiggins
Improve the defense enough

It was a bad plan for the offseason, as it shows right now.

And then, since last offseason he is refusing to admit he has failed and trade Butler, losing any respect of the rest of the roster and of his GM's pairs in the meantime.

Taylor just needs to hire someone(who Taylor see eye to eye with) and let them handle all the decisions(which won't happen). Even after Thibs you still have a huge issue as long as Taylor is the owner and pushing his own ideas for trades.

It works both ways: The owner should buy into the GM ideas, but the GM should buy into onwer ideas or dont take the job.

[Killboard]

Given how personal Taylor does all the business decisions I have hard time thinking they didn't even have a meeting after Korn Ferry brought the candidates to him. It should be a recipe for disaster, but in both ways. Obviously Thibs has the money but his reputation won't be regained (at least as a leading coach )

Glen Taylor went through a consultant to hire Thibs, so it's absolutely possible that from Thib's point of view that the owner was taking himself out of the equation of running the team since he took himself out of the hiring of the FO/Coach. The consultant was the one who said to give him POBO and Taylor went with it, Thibs didn't ask for it but obviously took it and the extra pay.

This is what I don't get, why would an owner take himself out of probably the MOST IMPORTANT hires and then once the FO is in place inject his ideas? Either the owner needs to be on the same page(who to build around) of the FO he hires or the owner needs to be completely out of the basketball decision making process.

No matter who the FO is, going through a consultant to hire a FO/Coach and then injecting your rules upon that FO is a recipe for disaster. It seems like everyone knew what Thibodeau wanted to do EXCEPT the Glen Taylor.

The franchise killer isn't Thibs(he was open to moving Wiggins which the owner was not), I get you don't like Thibs or his style, but without Taylor's interference in the basketball decisions you would have LaVine right now and probably Markkanen and be seeing Wiggins playing for Chicago with a max contract. Chicago wanted Wiggins more than LaVine at the time.

You still acting like Thibs only realized Wiggins unavailabilty once he wanted to make the trade for Butler. If that was the case he is more dumb than I imagine. One of the things he should have talk with Taylor at his signing is:
"Owner, what players do you want to build around?"
If the owner said Andrian Payne he should have said "I dont want the job". If it was Wiggins you say "Ok, so I should make an strategy to ease Wiggins transition into a positive NBA player". Signing Teague, Crawford, Taj and pick Patton wasnt going to help to:
Give Jimmy a max
Space the floor for Wiggins
Improve the defense enough

It was a bad plan for the offseason, as it shows right now.

And then, since last offseason he is refusing to admit he has failed and trade Butler, losing any respect of the rest of the roster and of his GM's pairs in the meantime.

Taylor just needs to hire someone(who Taylor see eye to eye with) and let them handle all the decisions(which won't happen). Even after Thibs you still have a huge issue as long as Taylor is the owner and pushing his own ideas for trades.

It works both ways: The owner should buy into the GM ideas, but the GM should buy into onwer ideas or dont take the job.

[AirP.]

Given how personal Taylor does all the business decisions I have hard time thinking they didn't even have a meeting after Korn Ferry brought the candidates to him. It should be a recipe for disaster, but in both ways. Obviously Thibs has the money but his reputation won't be regained (at least as a leading coach )

This is my opinion.
Taylor was 62 the last time the Timberwolves were in the playoffs and 13 years later at age 75 his #1 priority may have been to get this team back into the playoffs for himself and the fans. At 75 your time could be very short or you may have another 15 years in you so playing the long game may have taken a backseat to getting into the playoffs as quickly as possible(which Taylor had mentioned as a goal last season). What I think happened is that Taylor prioritized the playoffs and then had 2nd thoughts of letting the FO trade certain assets to make that happen which has really come back to haunt the franchise.

[PharmD]

Taylor told the front office people when he hired Thibs/Layden that he was going to semi-retire into his charities and let those guys do all of the running of the franchise. Basically their extreme incompetence has forced him to have to spend energy thinking about the Timberwolves again.

[vagelis]

This trade has destroyed this team's potential.
We shouldn't have traded for Butler.
Dunn, Lavine, Wiggins, Markannen, Towns + Rose would have been a fun team to watch for many years.
Butler is a role player in a good team who think that he is a first option.
The only reason for this trade was Lavine had just an acl surgery

[alabamawolf]

I don’t think the Wolves would have been any better keeping Lavine and Lauri. The Wolves would have had an incredible offense but both are negatives on the defensive side of the ball which is the issue with this team. I still don’t blame Thibs for taking the gamble but it unfortunately backfired

[PharmD]

I don’t think the Wolves would have been any better keeping Lavine and Lauri. The Wolves would have had an incredible offense but both are negatives on the defensive side of the ball which is the issue with this team. I still don’t blame Thibs for taking the gamble but it unfortunately backfired

Do you think we would have been worse than 27th in the league on defense like we were last year?

The year before that with 21-year old Zach, Wiggins, and Towns we were also 27th in the league on defense.

This year we're 29th on defense.

[alabamawolf]

I don’t think the Wolves would have been any better keeping Lavine and Lauri. The Wolves would have had an incredible offense but both are negatives on the defensive side of the ball which is the issue with this team. I still don’t blame Thibs for taking the gamble but it unfortunately backfired

Do you think we would have been worse than 27th in the league on defense like we were last year?

The year before that with 21-year old Zach, Wiggins, and Towns we were also 27th in the league on defense.

This year we're 29th on defense.

If you replace Butler and Gibson with Lavine and Markennen the defense absolutely gets worse. Lavine can’t stay in front of his man and was really bad at help. Lauri wouldn’t help rebounding at all but would have opened the floor up on offense. I think Teague is a huge deficiency on defense though

[Note30]

Nice so effectively we traded LaVine Markannen and Dunn for RoCo and Saric.

Fire Thibs.

[shrink]

Nice so effectively we traded LaVine Markannen and Dunn for RoCo and Saric.

Ugh, no.

We traded injured LaVine, Dunn and #7 for two years of Butler and #16

A year later, we traded one year of Butler for Covington, Saric, and the nice 2022 2nd.

We got a year of use out of Butler, got many wins and a trip to the playoffs, and the incoming package. I would also add that both Covington and Saric are ranked higher than anything we gave up.

[KGdaBom]

Nice so effectively we traded LaVine Markannen and Dunn for RoCo and Saric.

Fire Thibs.

Wolves win that trade by a large margin.

[Tukkerwolf]

Nice so effectively we traded LaVine Markannen and Dunn for RoCo and Saric.

That's a great deal for us man.

[Note30]

Zach is putting up insane numbers right now, and lauri and saric are a wash. Lauri actually is better because he's younger.

[KGdaBom]

Zach is putting up insane numbers right now, and lauri and saric are a wash. Lauri actually is better because he's younger.

LaVine putting up numbers?
A resounding YES!!
Doing things that help his team win?
I don't think so. RoCo is a much better player for teams that actually want to win basketball games. Markkanen a taller and possibly better shooting player than Saric. Saric a much more accomplished all around player. I prefer Saric. Also Markkanen is showing signs of being a player who deals with a lot of injuries. Wolves have the better side of what we gave for Butler vs what we got back. Also RoCo on a much better team friendly contract than LaVine.

[alabamawolf]

I’ll take Covington and his contract over Lavine all day

[Rashodamus]

I called the trade a franchise killer the night it happened.

I would ask you to prove that, and show us the post, but you just joined six weeks ago.

At the time, lots of people here lamented losing LaVine, but nobody called the trade was a “franchise killer the night it happened.”

If you actually did, it’s not something to brag about, IMO. That would have been a very bad take.

MahatmaRadoslav, also known as rashoismydad. Im not new, silly Shrink.

https://mnrubechat.com/espn-insider-trade-grade-bulls-f-wolves-a-t1232.html
https://mnrubechat.com/lavine-dunn-7-for-paul-george-and-16-t1235.html
https://mnrubechat.com/who-else-thinks-this-trade-is-a-complete-pile-of-s-t1217.html

"Yay or nay?

Paul George is a better player, fits better, and is a year younger.

His contract expires in one year and not 2.

Would everybody still be super excited about this deal, or would they consider it a rental and waste of assets? I am baffled by why having one more year for a guy thats a year older and plays ~70 games a season is a steal.

Have some damn perspective, we **** on our future tonight and locked ourselves into poorly fitting mediocrity. Cant wait for 2 years of 4-6 seeds followed by a complete **** storm."

"Wow we might be able to win 45 games this year!

Maybe Butler will resign in 2 years! Hey, but lets just worry about that when the time comes! Thats what the good franchises do, make blind moves with no vision and then celebrate!

#WINNING"


"We wont be able to get Dunn/Lavine/Markkanen back from the bulls for Butler in a year. That tells you all you need to know.

Butler will likely have another ~70ish games played season filled with nagging injuries and greatly declined stats while being another year older. Dunn and Lavine will be cheap, controllable, and their values will absolutely be MUCH higher next season. Dunn will be the starter and show to be much better than he was last season, and Lavine wont have to be the third wheel and will show his injury is behind him.

I dont care about proving anything to anybody tonight, I wont have to tell you guys how stupid this deal is in 2 years."

Sorry Shrink, but you are wrong. It was a franchise killer and its sad to me you arent realizing what we pissed away. Feel free to dig through those posts and laugh as I stated reality and watched everybody spew their delusions. Well, reality is here now and some of you still fight it, still cant see.

Lavine/Lauri/Dunn/2018 lotto pick + win now salary committed to Gibson/Teague/Crawford and the trading of Rubio, + lost development and chemistry.

For Dario Saric and Roco....

Thats not a franchise killer? Check yourself in.

[Grubie024]

I called the trade a franchise killer the night it happened.

I would ask you to prove that, and show us the post, but you just joined six weeks ago.

At the time, lots of people here lamented losing LaVine, but nobody called the trade was a “franchise killer the night it happened.”

If you actually did, it’s not something to brag about, IMO. That would have been a very bad take.

MahatmaRadoslav, also known as rashoismydad. Im not new, silly Shrink.

https://mnrubechat.com/espn-insider-trade-grade-bulls-f-wolves-a-t1232.html
https://mnrubechat.com/lavine-dunn-7-for-paul-george-and-16-t1235.html
https://mnrubechat.com/who-else-thinks-this-trade-is-a-complete-pile-of-s-t1217.html

"Yay or nay?

Paul George is a better player, fits better, and is a year younger.

His contract expires in one year and not 2.

Would everybody still be super excited about this deal, or would they consider it a rental and waste of assets? I am baffled by why having one more year for a guy thats a year older and plays ~70 games a season is a steal.

Have some damn perspective, we **** on our future tonight and locked ourselves into poorly fitting mediocrity. Cant wait for 2 years of 4-6 seeds followed by a complete **** storm."

"Wow we might be able to win 45 games this year!

Maybe Butler will resign in 2 years! Hey, but lets just worry about that when the time comes! Thats what the good franchises do, make blind moves with no vision and then celebrate!

#WINNING"


"We wont be able to get Dunn/Lavine/Markkanen back from the bulls for Butler in a year. That tells you all you need to know.

Butler will likely have another ~70ish games played season filled with nagging injuries and greatly declined stats while being another year older. Dunn and Lavine will be cheap, controllable, and their values will absolutely be MUCH higher next season. Dunn will be the starter and show to be much better than he was last season, and Lavine wont have to be the third wheel and will show his injury is behind him.

I dont care about proving anything to anybody tonight, I wont have to tell you guys how stupid this deal is in 2 years."

Sorry Shrink, but you are wrong. It was a franchise killer and its sad to me you arent realizing what we pissed away.

Lavine's On/Off numbers are terrible! He's 6th man of the year material. Quite frankly, I think that's been pretty obvious for years. He will never be a good enough defender to move the needle. If the wolves had Lavine as 6th man right now, and he was on a cheaper contract, I'd be happy.
That being said, RoCo does project to be a needle mover for us. He's an elite wing defender- an absolute must have in the playoffs. He'll fit seemlessly into the offense, something Lavine wouldn't do unless he was 6th man. Plus RoCo is on a very reasonable contract for years to come.

The only way the wolves lost this trade is if Markannen blows up to multi time all star.

[Rashodamus]

I don’t think the Wolves would have been any better keeping Lavine and Lauri. The Wolves would have had an incredible offense but both are negatives on the defensive side of the ball which is the issue with this team. I still don’t blame Thibs for taking the gamble but it unfortunately backfired

Do you have the ability to think abstractly and see other avenues the team could have improved using those assets? Or do you HAVE to look at it as if we are "stuck" with those players and can never make another move?

I woulda been on the phone sending Lauri and our lotto pick to grab Doncic, or waiting for a better fitting star to become available to consolidate with. But I am about tired of the simplistic thinking that NOT trading for Butler means we literally just build around Lavine/Lauri...as if no other moves can ever be made FFS. None of you ever calculate in the salary position we are in due to this trade, and no I dont mean Butlers salary, I mean the series of moves that followed and made us a mediocre team pushing the lux threshold. See thats all part of the Butler deal too, the rubio trade, Gibson, Crawford (who saved us from ourselves), Teague, these moves are all connected and they were the result of the trash Butler deal.