The Justin Patton thread

[Narf]

It's no secret I agree with your position. This Wolves board is full of people who have placed me on their ignore list because of this stance...well sans one thing. I think a bold trade was needed. Rather a reshuffle trade. Not a win-now vet trade. Meaning, Wolves use their assets to find an ideal fitting roster of youth. Players all on rookie contracts that would peak at same time.

I won't list example trades because then everyone who reads this gets lost in the weeds of examples (like examples are gospels) -- rather than the concept. Wolves should have traded any combination of assets not named Towns, to construct an ideal lineup built for the long term. With long term being construction of a juggernaut ready to win playoff games in 1-2 years, playoff series in 2-4 years, and championship(s) 4+ years -- right when GSW is on decline.

Don't you think Butler is a better trade piece in a year to achieve that goal? Let's say LeBron wants to finish in Cleveland next year. They have the #3 pick from NJ. We give it a go for a year and realize we need a different piece to win.

Don't you think they're 100% giving us that pick and a good young player for Butler?

Even if your plan is to "maximize LaVine's value" by waiting a year until he's healed, Butler has more value. There's no guarantee that we don't trade Butler and Gibson to a contender and rob their pantries in a year.

[Klomp]

The roster as it stands now is not a contender and we do not have the assets or space to improve it to that level. I dont get why this logic is so hard for some of you to understand. None of you have an answer for how we turn this team into a contender, you just keep repeating "but we got Butler for Lavine!" as if it proves some point. Great, we improved our roster in the short term, I never denied this. But we also removed all flexibility and shortened our window for improving the team. We are now essentially locked into a roster which has no upward mobility or flexibility and you cant even recognize it.

The roster you wanted isn't a contender either. And it won't have flexibility.

Both ways you build it, the only way this team makes a jump to contend is if Towns and Wiggins take a big leap forward. Getting the vets wasn't just about short-term improvement, but about getting specific vets who are the perfect mentors for Towns and Wiggins, and can help them take that next step forward quicker than if they were doing it on their own.

[Rashoismydad]

Don't you think Butler is a better trade piece in a year to achieve that goal? Let's say LeBron wants to finish in Cleveland next year. They have the #3 pick from NJ. We give it a go for a year and realize we need a different piece to win.

Don't you think they're 100% giving us that pick and a good young player for Butler?

Even if your plan is to "maximize LaVine's value" by waiting a year until he's healed, Butler has more value. There's no guarantee that we don't trade Butler and Gibson to a contender and rob their pantries in a year.

Why do you think that? Boston wouldn't give up the #3 this year for Butler with 2 years left on his deal, another year of mileage and only one year left on his deal will drop his value.

So we traded our youth to get a piece so we could trade it for youth? Brilliant. This notion shouldn't even be brought up, there is no chance we trade Butler and Gibson brings back NOTHING with his 14M pricetag, we would be lucky to be able to salary dump him.

[Rashoismydad]

The roster you wanted isn't a contender either. And it won't have flexibility.

Both ways you build it, the only way this team makes a jump to contend is if Towns and Wiggins take a big leap forward. Getting the vets wasn't just about short-term improvement, but about getting specific vets who are the perfect mentors for Towns and Wiggins, and can help them take that next step forward quicker than if they were doing it on their own.

It has a better chance of being a contender than the current roster, which is 0%. Still no mention of how we improve this roster to contender status because when you look at it honestly there is no way. My method doesn't limit our ability to trade for a star in the future, we would still have all the assets needed to do so if the right deal came around, but the assets would be APPRECIATING as opposed to now having a bunch of DEPRECIATING assets. We didn't have to bank solely on internal improvement but didn't flush that option down the toilet if we stood pat.

Now were well f*cked in terms of building a contender. Most of you just want to compete and high five for making the playoffs, I want more. I was excited about this teams potential and now I am slapped with the reality of being the clippers. I will bump this in 2 years and I am willing to bet many of you change your tune once you realize we turned down a dead end in terms of franchise building. But hey, those playoff appearances will make pissing away a chance at building a true contender just fine to most of you apparently.

The 76ers blew past us in terms of teams building a championship core, their patience could have them truly competing in a couple years while we will be also ran 4th/5th seeds. But hey, we will probably have a better record than them this year so we are smart!

[Worm Guts]

We're **** in terms of building a contender? If you have 3 top 20 players, you're a contender. If we get Towns and Wiggins to that level, we're a contender.

[rugbyrugger23]

It's no secret I agree with your position. This Wolves board is full of people who have placed me on their ignore list because of this stance...well sans one thing. I think a bold trade was needed. Rather a reshuffle trade. Not a win-now vet trade. Meaning, Wolves use their assets to find an ideal fitting roster of youth. Players all on rookie contracts that would peak at same time.

I won't list example trades because then everyone who reads this gets lost in the weeds of examples (like examples are gospels) -- rather than the concept. Wolves should have traded any combination of assets not named Towns, to construct an ideal lineup built for the long term. With long term being construction of a juggernaut ready to win playoff games in 1-2 years, playoff series in 2-4 years, and championship(s) 4+ years -- right when GSW is on decline.

Don't you think Butler is a better trade piece in a year to achieve that goal? Let's say LeBron wants to finish in Cleveland next year. They have the #3 pick from NJ. We give it a go for a year and realize we need a different piece to win.

Don't you think they're 100% giving us that pick and a good young player for Butler?

Even if your plan is to "maximize LaVine's value" by waiting a year until he's healed, Butler has more value. There's no guarantee that we don't trade Butler and Gibson to a contender and rob their pantries in a year.

Well I can honestly say I haven't thought of that. It probably is highly unlikely, but that option sit there.

So my favorite rookie contract player for this roster is Porzingis.
Butler to Cavs
Nets 1st to Knicks
Porzingis to Wolves
(Add salary and value filler)

I could go for that.
C: Towns
F: Porzingis
F: ?
G: Wiggins
G: Teague?

[Klomp]

The roster you wanted isn't a contender either. And it won't have flexibility.

Both ways you build it, the only way this team makes a jump to contend is if Towns and Wiggins take a big leap forward. Getting the vets wasn't just about short-term improvement, but about getting specific vets who are the perfect mentors for Towns and Wiggins, and can help them take that next step forward quicker than if they were doing it on their own.

It has a better chance of being a contender than the current roster, which is 0%. Still no mention of how we improve this roster to contender status because when you look at it honestly there is no way. My method doesn't limit our ability to trade for a star in the future, we would still have all the assets needed to do so if the right deal came around, but the assets would be APPRECIATING as opposed to now having a bunch of DEPRECIATING assets. We didn't have to bank solely on internal improvement but didn't flush that option down the toilet if we stood pat.

Now were well f*cked in terms of building a contender. Most of you just want to compete and high five for making the playoffs, I want more. I was excited about this teams potential and now I am slapped with the reality of being the clippers. I will bump this in 2 years and I am willing to bet many of you change your tune once you realize we turned down a dead end in terms of franchise building. But hey, those playoff appearances will make pissing away a chance at building a true contender just fine to most of you apparently.

The 76ers blew past us in terms of teams building a championship core, their patience could have them truly competing in a couple years while we will be also ran 4th/5th seeds. But hey, we will probably have a better record than them this year so we are smart!

As opposed to the team's method of actually trading for a star instead of just dreaming about maybe having the ability to do so in the future.

[Rashoismydad]

As opposed to the team's method of actually trading for a star instead of just dreaming about maybe having the ability to do so in the future.

As I said, I have no problem with consolidating youth to land a star. I just believe it to be the wrong time, and possibly the wrong player. We wouldn't have had to "maybe dream about it", that is pathetically obtuse, we both know we would have the assets to pull off a deal going forward. It's also about getting the MOST out of your assets, striking when the iron is hot, not selling low on Dunn and Lavine. You might think "well we got Butler so we didn't sell low!" but you would be wrong, there is no doubt the value of those 2 players was lower when they were traded than say the start of the year, and I am very willing to bet it is lower than at the end of this upcoming season. Butlers value? Well the celtics wouldn't give up #3 for him but would give up nets unprotected, IT, and Crowder for Kyrie. I guess Ainge is just a bad GM? Meanwhile Butlers value is at an all time high, at his peak and with 2 years left. In a year his value will be LOWER due to only having one year before FA and another (hopefully healthy) season and starting the decline from his peak.

The fun thing about this kind of stuff is I get to be redeemed in the future. I won't take the easy way and claim victory if we don't win a title, because nobody in their right mind thinks we will anyway. But if the team we put out in 3 years is the same tier or below the one we put out this year, I will claim victory. If Butler walks I will relentlessly rip every one of you who think Butler loves Thibs so much that he wouldn't leave.

[Worm Guts]

Saying we sold low on Dunn and Lavine implies that their value would have gone up, which definitely isn't guaranteed. Lavine's value will probably be lower a year from now after a most likely down season (because of recovery) before a contract year. Dunn could cement his status as a bust.
As far as the Celtics overpaying for Irving after not being willing to trade for Butler, I can't explain that. Butler is clearly a superior player.

[Narf]

Don't you think Butler is a better trade piece in a year to achieve that goal? Let's say LeBron wants to finish in Cleveland next year. They have the #3 pick from NJ. We give it a go for a year and realize we need a different piece to win.

Don't you think they're 100% giving us that pick and a good young player for Butler?

Even if your plan is to "maximize LaVine's value" by waiting a year until he's healed, Butler has more value. There's no guarantee that we don't trade Butler and Gibson to a contender and rob their pantries in a year.

Why do you think that? Boston wouldn't give up the #3 this year for Butler with 2 years left on his deal, another year of mileage and only one year left on his deal will drop his value.

So we traded our youth to get a piece so we could trade it for youth? Brilliant. This notion shouldn't even be brought up, there is no chance we trade Butler and Gibson brings back NOTHING with his 14M pricetag, we would be lucky to be able to salary dump him.

Yeah, I think Cleveland is giving up Crowder and the pick for Butler. Butler is universally considered a top 20 player and the consensus is top #15. He's second to Kawhi as a 2 way player (until playoff time, playoff LeBron is clearly better than both) and still has 5 good years left even if he declines early. Plenty of players are making it to 35 at an all star level, that's a max extension away for Butler.

I don't think you're acknowledging LaVine's actual value here. He wasn't an elite scorer, just a very good one. He couldn't elevate his teammate's play like Butker does. He was the worst defensive SG in the NBA and forced Wiggins to guard the LeBrons, Durants, Haywards, Kawhis of the league where Wiggins was completely outclassed and Butler is not. He's one of the best defensive wings in the NBA.

So do you think Cousins is worthless because he got far less than Butler did? Boston could have given their Nets pick for Cousins too, obviously he's not an all-NBA center right?

Butler has much more value in a year than LaVine. That's why we had to give Dunn and lower our pick in the draft to get him. If you think we overpaid, that's reasonable but you're in the minority.

If Butler works we made the right trade. If he doesn't, I'm not convinced we won't dump him for the best young asset we can get in a year. Maybe we do lose out on this trade, but it's not like we're incapable of trading Butler if we don't make that next step this season. You're wrong to assume that's set in stone.

[Worm Guts]

As long as Towns and Wiggins are top 20 players, we'll at least be at least pseudo contenders, if we have a 3rd all-star player to with them during that period we'll be contenders. I can't say if this was a good trade. I will say I am skeptical that Wiggins would reach his potential if we just let him continue play on bad teams. I think it's important that he starts playing in important games and it's also probably beneficial that he's playing with someone like Butler who plays with intensity.
Wiggins reaching his potential is probably the biggest factor in determining whether we ever become legitimate contenders

[KGdaBom]

Rasho you have blinders on. I consider 90% of what you say mindless drivel. If you don't get that adding a top ten player in the league for a couple of ok LaVine to poor players Dunn is a GREAT move you know nothing about basketball. I'm trying to help, but you simply aren't getting any of what anybody has to share with you because you are so locked in on your very wrong ideas. Yes I would rather have Markannen or DSJ than Patton. That is about the only thing you got right here, but you don't pass on a superstar for either of those guys.

I get what all of you are saying, I just disagree and have spelled out why quite clearly. I am not guaranteeing my method would have led us to a championship caliber team, but I am confident it has a higher probability of doing so.

The roster as it stands now is not a contender and we do not have the assets or space to improve it to that level. I dont get why this logic is so hard for some of you to understand. None of you have an answer for how we turn this team into a contender, you just keep repeating "but we got Butler for Lavine!" as if it proves some point. Great, we improved our roster in the short term, I never denied this. But we also removed all flexibility and shortened our window for improving the team. We are now essentially locked into a roster which has no upward mobility or flexibility and you cant even recognize it.

Once again you keep wearing the Blinders. We added a top ten player in his prime. Should be great for the next 7 years. With resigning Butler in 2 years and continued improvement from KAT and Wiggins we are a contender and could be one for a very long time to come. Why is this so hard to comprehend. Adding a top ten player in the league in his prime is NEVER a bad move unless you are giving up somebody who will be even better. Butler signs a Max contract when this one is up and that is a VERY GOOD thing. LaVine was not going to be a top ten player. Markannen and that is who we would have drafted is not going to be a top ten player. Dunn is a bum.

[KGdaBom]

The roster you wanted isn't a contender either. And it won't have flexibility.

Both ways you build it, the only way this team makes a jump to contend is if Towns and Wiggins take a big leap forward. Getting the vets wasn't just about short-term improvement, but about getting specific vets who are the perfect mentors for Towns and Wiggins, and can help them take that next step forward quicker than if they were doing it on their own.

It has a better chance of being a contender than the current roster, which is 0%. Still no mention of how we improve this roster to contender status because when you look at it honestly there is no way. My method doesn't limit our ability to trade for a star in the future, we would still have all the assets needed to do so if the right deal came around, but the assets would be APPRECIATING as opposed to now having a bunch of DEPRECIATING assets. We didn't have to bank solely on internal improvement but didn't flush that option down the toilet if we stood pat.

Now were well f*cked in terms of building a contender. Most of you just want to compete and high five for making the playoffs, I want more. I was excited about this teams potential and now I am slapped with the reality of being the clippers. I will bump this in 2 years and I am willing to bet many of you change your tune once you realize we turned down a dead end in terms of franchise building. But hey, those playoff appearances will make pissing away a chance at building a true contender just fine to most of you apparently.

The 76ers blew past us in terms of teams building a championship core, their patience could have them truly competing in a couple years while we will be also ran 4th/5th seeds. But hey, we will probably have a better record than them this year so we are smart!

Butler with an Improving KAT and Wiggins has zero percent chance of being a contender??????

WTH is wrong with your basketball analysis skills. Butler will continue to be a top ten player in the league. KAT will possibly become the best player in the league, and Wiggins who knows, but he has top 20 upside if things fall in place. How is that team not a contender. Odds are we don't win the championship. That is simple truth for virtually every team in the league, but KAT, Butler and Wiggins gives us a far better chance than KAT/Wiggins/LaVine/Markannen and far better chance than most other teams especially the 76ers. The Sixers SUCK. They are the team that has almost zero chance of being a contender. Playoffs are about the best they can hope for. Embiid is not long for this league. Simmons has some great gifts, but all kinds of flaws to his game. They are not on our level and won't be for the foreseeable future.

[KGdaBom]

We're **** in terms of building a contender? If you have 3 top 20 players, you're a contender. If we get Towns and Wiggins to that level, we're a contender.

Towns is already at that top 20 level and IMO could be the best player in the league in a couple years.

[KGdaBom]

It's no secret I agree with your position. This Wolves board is full of people who have placed me on their ignore list because of this stance...well sans one thing. I think a bold trade was needed. Rather a reshuffle trade. Not a win-now vet trade. Meaning, Wolves use their assets to find an ideal fitting roster of youth. Players all on rookie contracts that would peak at same time.

I won't list example trades because then everyone who reads this gets lost in the weeds of examples (like examples are gospels) -- rather than the concept. Wolves should have traded any combination of assets not named Towns, to construct an ideal lineup built for the long term. With long term being construction of a juggernaut ready to win playoff games in 1-2 years, playoff series in 2-4 years, and championship(s) 4+ years -- right when GSW is on decline.

Don't you think Butler is a better trade piece in a year to achieve that goal? Let's say LeBron wants to finish in Cleveland next year. They have the #3 pick from NJ. We give it a go for a year and realize we need a different piece to win.

Don't you think they're 100% giving us that pick and a good young player for Butler?

Even if your plan is to "maximize LaVine's value" by waiting a year until he's healed, Butler has more value. There's no guarantee that we don't trade Butler and Gibson to a contender and rob their pantries in a year.

Well I can honestly say I haven't thought of that. It probably is highly unlikely, but that option sit there.

So my favorite rookie contract player for this roster is Porzingis.
Butler to Cavs
Nets 1st to Knicks
Porzingis to Wolves
(Add salary and value filler)

I could go for that.
C: Towns
F: Porzingis
F: ?
G: Wiggins
G: Teague?

That's not bad, You are probably filling in that SF spot with Belly in that situation.

However, I would rather have
C: Towns
PF: Dieng
SF: Butler
SG: Wiggins
PG: Teague

Guess what we already have that.

[KGdaBom]

Saying we sold low on Dunn and Lavine implies that their value would have gone up, which definitely isn't guaranteed. Lavine's value will probably be lower a year from now after a most likely down season (because of recovery) before a contract year. Dunn could cement his status as a bust.
As far as the Celtics overpaying for Irving after not being willing to trade for Butler, I can't explain that. Butler is clearly a superior player.

Butler is a top ten player.
Irving is a top 30 player maybe.

[Klomp]

We wouldn't have had to "maybe dream about it", that is pathetically obtuse, we both know we would have the assets to pull off a deal going forward.

It takes two teams to trade. Just because a team has assets doesn't mean a team will want to trade a star player with multiple years on his deal for them. You have to strike when an opportunity presents itself. That plus the built-in comfort level Thibs and Butler already have make it a no-brainer.

[Rashoismydad]

I don't consider Butler a top 10 player, I look at him as an Andre Iguodala type player more than a real star. Before people get all offended, Iggy was putting up 20/6/6 with elite defense on mediocre teams just like Butler did. He was also FAR more dependable, playing in all 82 games 5 of his first 6 years and 76 in the other. Butler might be a slightly better offensive player, but hes not a superstar and people should stop presenting him as one. Top 10 players? I wouldnt even put him in the top 5 SFs. I take Lebron, Durant, Kawhi, PG13, and Giannis above him without even pausing to think about it.

I also have my doubts about Wiggins ever consistently having the mentality he needs to be a real star. Like KG said "you either have the beast in you or you dont", and after 3 years Wiggins is looking pretty beast free except when motivated by playing the Cavs or Raptors. I don't think Butler comes in and magically changes who Wiggins is, in fact I think its more likely that there is chemistry issues and Wiggins goes full millennial baby. Its not a good sign when your owner wants to sit down and flat out tell you that you need to try before he inks your extension.

KAT is the real deal, hes a future HOF and I agree could be the best player in the league if he sorts out his defensive problems. Hes our one true pillar that I know we can rely on going forward.

I think its a coin flip on who is a better player in 2 years, Wiggins or Lavine. I would honestly probably go with Lavine at this point because of the improvement he has shown and effort levels which blow Wiggins away, not to mention his shooting in todays game. Lavine was doing all his damage as a third option on the wolves much like Harden did in OKC, and I would not be shocked at all to see him really blow up as the #1 guy and getting a ton of touches once he is fully recovered.

So thats where I stand on our talent, and why I dont believe we have a chance of being a contender. If we were comparing against the warriors, I would rather have Curry/Durant than the wolves trifecta, and thats without even mentioning Green/Thompson/Iggy and a ton of good veteran depth. We have sh*t for depth, relying on guys who are either nearly 40 or career role players. One commonality you will find in almost all championship caliber teams is their depth and what it is made up of. Championship teams have former all star caliber players playing in support roles. We have guys like Tyus Jones, a 40 year old Crawford, Bjelica...and how are we going to address that with no cap space and no assets? Its not even just our lack of top end star power to be a contender, its a horrible supporting cast in comparison as well IMO.

[Klomp]

There were some people who once thought Golden State made a terrible decision in trading Monta Ellis. Why would a team trade a young player for an older, injury prone guy like Andrew Bogut when you aren't even a playoff team? Let the young kids develop. They won't ever be a title contender with the Spurs at the top of their game and with the Big 3 in Los Angeles anyways, so what's the point? It's a coin flip on who will be better between Ellis and Curry, so keep both and combine our assets later for a real star.

When the truth was, they don't make the jump they do without that trade.

[Worm Guts]

Teams like the KG Celtics and the Lebron Heat have shown that if you 3 top 20 players, you're a contender. Both had to scrap every semblance of depth they had to acquire their respective big 3's yet they were still able to win championships.
Butler is a clear top 20 player and Towns will be soon. Wiggins is the question mark, but I do think he has the higher potential than Lavine because of his size. Really the only way trading for Butler was a mistake is if someone we traded for him ends up being a similar caliber player.
Truth is, if you don't think Wiggins is going to be a star the mistake was not trading him this summer for George or Irving.