Convince Me Otherwise

mondry · Post #81 » by **mondry** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:26 pm

I love this trade, for once we're finally on the receiving end of getting another teams star for peanuts and he's a two way guy entering his prime.

I hated the Dunn pick from the get go, I'll never understand drafting an old college player unless they're just completely dominating because honestly if you're not crushing it at 22 against 19 year old kids you're not going to be crushing it in the NBA any time soon. This was the ideal time to trade him while he still had at least some value left.

Lavine I liked a lot, he was probably my second favorite wolf behind Towns and honestly if the deal made sense, I might have been happier to see Wiggins go instead (obviously we'd have to get more from the bulls or a 3rd team) but yeah, liked Lavine a lot. With that said, he just tore an ALC and if he's the main thing we're giving up for Jimmy Butler I can live with it.

In basketball I think you always take a proven star at a discount over potential. Wiggins was suppose to be the best thing since Lebron and do you think they regret trading him for Love? Hell no, they won a championship lol.

I can sort of see the logic behind saying GS is too good let's wait for them to break up or retire but at the same time there's no guarantee another super team won't form a couple years down the road anyway. If we're going to play that game why not say Durant could hurt his foot again or curry could twist an ankle and a Wolves team with Butler could beat them so let's go for it now!

In the end, I don't think you pass up on a player like Butler at a discounted price, yes there is risk but there is far more in expecting young players to massively improve or a draft pick to pan out.

shrink · Post #82 » by **shrink** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:27 pm

Klomp wrote:Out of this franchise's 28-year existence, they have made the playoffs in just 8 seasons (28.6%), including an NBA record 13-year playoff drought.

Just to remind folks, the object is to MAKE the playoffs, not MISS them. I think it's been so long since we've cheered for a playoff team that maybe we forgot that's the goal.

You can't win a championship without making the playoffs, so I'm not quite sure why it's a negative to try to make the playoffs.

No, the object is not to MAKE the playoffs. The object is to WIN the playoffs.

Rings get respect. Multiple KG years with first round playoff exits led to frustration. Making the playoffs, but not having the momentum from all the team peaking together, may simply get you stuck in the middle. We will see.

I know my posting sounds like I hate this trade, and I certainly do not. However, I do question whether investing win-later assets into a win-now Jimmy Butler increaes, or decreases our chances of WINNING playoffs. I maintain that if the goal was simply MAKING the playoffs, we were headed that way anyway.

PharmD · Post #83 » by **PharmD** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:31 pm

shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:Out of this franchise's 28-year existence, they have made the playoffs in just 8 seasons (28.6%), including an NBA record 13-year playoff drought.

Just to remind folks, the object is to MAKE the playoffs, not MISS them. I think it's been so long since we've cheered for a playoff team that maybe we forgot that's the goal.

You can't win a championship without making the playoffs, so I'm not quite sure why it's a negative to try to make the playoffs.

No, the object is not to MAKE the playoffs. The object is to WIN the playoffs.

Rings get respect. Multiple KG years with first round playoff exits led to frustration.

I know my posting sounds like I hate this trade, and I certainly do not. However, I do question whether investing win-later assets into a win-now Jimmy Butler increaes, or decreases our chances of WINNING playoffs. I maintain that if the goal was simply MAKING the playoffs, we were headed that way anyway.

Yeah, i'm completely with you.

I'm not sure if the trade is bad, i'm not sure if it's good. We'll have to see how we fill out the roster. If Jimmy can recruit us another stud then things will be very good.

I think it's a very interesting trade tho and i wish we lived in a world where we could see how things played out both ways.

Loyal[]Wolf · Post #84 » by **Loyal[]Wolf** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:34 pm

We are the only team now in the whole NBA (not the even the Warriors or the Cavaliers) that have three players that scored 20+ points last year. It's a legit Big 3 that will make us a top 4 contender in the West as long as we fill out our team properly in FA. I think Jimmy is a perfect fit, and a three-time All-Star entering his prime. Yes, we had to give up young talent but what do you expect for an All-Star that is entering his prime?? Kevin Garnett was traded past him prime, and Boston gave us Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, cash considerations, Boston's 2009 first-round draft pick (top 3 protected), and the 2009 first-round pick which Minnesota had traded to Boston in the Ricky Davis. Free Agency should land us at least at least a couple above-average players to fill out our roster and may include the one of the following JJ Reddick, George Hill, Jrue Holiday, Paul Millsap, Kyle Lowry, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Serge Ibaka, etc. We will have more talent than KG, Sam and Spree when we won 58 games. So, enjoy a 50+ win season (if we make the right moves in FA, and there are no season-ending injuries to all stars).

shrink · Post #85 » by **shrink** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:37 pm

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Yes, Jimmy Butler will win us more games in the present, but people have the right to discuss the longterm ramifications this giant trade has for the team. Name calling and shaming are not cool.

In 2007, Boston made a trade that drastically affected the longterm future of their team. Maybe we should go to their forum and start a poll, asking them if they think Danny Ainge made a mistake by sacrificing all that youth and closing their window...

But you see that they traded all their youth (save rondo) to have three vets, at their peak, at the same time. They got Ray allen for the 5, KG for Jefferson, prospects and picks, and already had Pierce. This is one unified shot at a championship, which is exactly what I am advocating.

Jimmy and Towns/wiggins are 6-7 years different in age. BOS had three guys of similar age, all in their prime. It is doubtful the primes of the three Wolves players will overlap.

I am saying, if you want to win a championship, pick a course. If we want to be a vet, win-now team, trade Wiggins and Towns to get players that are currently top 10 in production. Personally, I think Towns is untradable, so I question whether we should have stuck to a time frame that focused on him.

Post #86 » by **Klomp** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:42 pm

shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:Out of this franchise's 28-year existence, they have made the playoffs in just 8 seasons (28.6%), including an NBA record 13-year playoff drought.

Just to remind folks, the object is to MAKE the playoffs, not MISS them. I think it's been so long since we've cheered for a playoff team that maybe we forgot that's the goal.

You can't win a championship without making the playoffs, so I'm not quite sure why it's a negative to try to make the playoffs.

No, the object is not to MAKE the playoffs. The object is to WIN the playoffs.

Has a team ever won the playoffs without first making them?

Post #87 » by **Klomp** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:44 pm

shrink wrote:Jimmy and Towns/wiggins are 6-7 years different in age. .

Shaq and Kobe were 7 years apart. Did they make a mistake by putting them together?

shrink · Post #88 » by **shrink** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:47 pm

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:Out of this franchise's 28-year existence, they have made the playoffs in just 8 seasons (28.6%), including an NBA record 13-year playoff drought.

Just to remind folks, the object is to MAKE the playoffs, not MISS them. I think it's been so long since we've cheered for a playoff team that maybe we forgot that's the goal.

You can't win a championship without making the playoffs, so I'm not quite sure why it's a negative to try to make the playoffs.

No, the object is not to MAKE the playoffs. The object is to WIN the playoffs.

Has a team ever won the playoffs without first making them?

Has a baseball player ever hit a home run by bunting, because it improved his chances of getting to first base?

If you are trying to maximize your chances of a goal, you base your actions on maximizing the goal, not an incremental step.

D1SGRUNTL3D · Post #89 » by **D1SGRUNTL3D** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:47 pm

Lebron and Kyrie are 7 years apart

TwolvesFanRome · Post #90 » by **TwolvesFanRome** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:51 pm

That s Incredible...instead of being euphoric we are looking for what is wrong...

We acquire a All Star player...we have other 2 potential all star player...we have a free agency to improve our team...

Please, be happy and no more...

MN7725 · Post #91 » by **MN7725** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:53 pm

Wolves didn't give up anything long term unless Butler walks in 2019 FA

#7-#16 meh. We'll see which player works harder

Dunn's best case scenario is Pat Beverly type, the kind of marginal player you look to move when you have a shot at big fish FA like Hou is doing. Nice to have around but not the difference between wins/losses.

Butler 7 years from now at age 34-35 will still be way more impactful player than Lavine will be at age 28-29. People act like age 30 is some sort of cliff that players fall off of. It can be if the player is some sort of completely-dependent-on-athleticism player

Anyone who thinks that about Butler is just ignorant about him as a player. Butler will have a Paul Pierce "decline"

Post #92 » by **Double Helix** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:53 pm

Perhaps it's the differences in the conference but I'm not sure you realize just how special Jimmy Butler really is. He isn't just elite on offense. He's a lockdown defender. He's ranked 7th overall in Real +/-

You're adding arguably a top 10 talent in the league in his prime and a guy who can lift both Wiggins and KAT to new heights because of his intensity and motor. You get him for not 1 year but 2 and by the time that second year ends Wiggins and KAT will be truly elite on their own so he'll see what's being built and want to stay. He's also used to cold weather and was willing to stay in Chicago despite it. Some superstars don't want to deal with the cold at all.

What if in 2 years time Durant tears an ACL or fractured his foot again? What if the Warriors bench is weaker after signing these new deals? What if they lose Klay because they can't afford him? Who else but Minnesota will be more ready to pick up the mantle should Golden State slip 2-3 years out from now? Your big 3 will be better than any's in the West in 2 more seasons not named Golden State and you'll have chemistry and coaching to go with it. You guys will be the next OKC type of team and any slip up from the champs and you'll be most ready to pounce.

This new big 3 will go further than KG did. This will become the greatest basketball team Minnesota has ever had and a potential contender for the Championship if GSW suffers a bad break at the wrong time. Believe. So many other fans would dream of a big 3 of Jimmy Butler, Andrew Wiggins and KAT. That's special.

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shrink · Post #93 » by **shrink** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:54 pm

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Jimmy and Towns/wiggins are 6-7 years different in age. .

Shaq and Kobe were 7 years apart. Did they make a mistake by putting them together?

I am not saying it's impossible, or that if vintage Shaq wanted to sign with the Wolves in free agency, you say no.

I am saying if the goal is to win the playoffs, the primary method is to have multiple prime vets like the BOS example. It may be even more of an imperative snow, since winning a championship means getting past the Warriors, with several superstars in their prime.

I have concerns that we will not have our best team focused either now, or in the future, because of the age differences, if we even are able to convince Jimmy to stay in two years. Perhaps we should consider trying to trade Wiggins for a win now piece? That is hard for me to get my head around as well.

moss_is_1 · Post #94 » by **moss_is_1** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:56 pm

With how good KAT and even Wiggins are already, the age difference doesn't really matter. This is maximizing on KAT and Wiggins still being on rookie deals as well. If Taylor is willing to pay up, we can add another big contributor to our team in free agency.

I'm not sure how you can really hate on this trade, especially since we got their pick back. I get that LaVine looked nice for us last season as a scorer. What else does he offer, though? Butler is better at every facet of the game. The only thing LaVine has is age and athleticism. Dunn looked like a bust, and is nearly 24 years old. He could come around, but what if he doesn't? We've got a legit top 8-12 player with Butler(who actually is a top wing defender also), as well as KAT who is rapidly improving into that range. This gives us a player that knows how to win, and can show these young guys how to work.

shrink · Post #95 » by **shrink** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:00 pm

D1SGRUNTL3D wrote:Lebron and Kyrie are 7 years apart

I was going to mention this too, but then edited it out. I think LeBron is ageless, and there is a big difference between Kyrie and Love at .. 25? 26? with 6-7 years of nba experience, and KAT and Wiggins at 20-22. I don't know if we can base a model on the freak that is LeBron.

Duncan and David Robinson had a huge age gap, 20 years ago. It's not impossible, but these are special special players. Are people really disputing that teams try to base their teams on a time frame where there stars are all on their primes together?

PharmD · Post #96 » by **PharmD** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:03 pm

moss_is_1 wrote:With how good KAT and even Wiggins are already, the age difference doesn't really matter. This is maximizing on KAT and Wiggins still being on rookie deals as well. If Taylor is willing to pay up, we can add another big contributor to our team in free agency.

I'm not sure how you can really hate on this trade, especially since we got their pick back. I get that LaVine looked nice for us last season as a scorer. What else does he offer, though? Butler is better at every facet of the game. The only thing LaVine has is age and athleticism. Dunn looked like a bust, and is nearly 24 years old. He could come around, but what if he doesn't? We've got a legit top 8-12 player with Butler(who actually is a top wing defender also), as well as KAT who is rapidly improving into that range. This gives us a player that knows how to win, and can show these young guys how to work.

I don't think anyone is hating on the trade fwiw. More like analyzing.

Post #97 » by **Klomp** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:05 pm

Watch on YouTube

D1SGRUNTL3D · Post #98 » by **D1SGRUNTL3D** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:08 pm

shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Jimmy and Towns/wiggins are 6-7 years different in age. .

Shaq and Kobe were 7 years apart. Did they make a mistake by putting them together?

I am not saying it's impossible, or that if vintage Shaq wanted to sign with the Wolves in free agency, you say no.

I am saying if the goal is to win the playoffs, the primary method is to have multiple prime vets like the BOS example. It may be even more of an imperative snow, since winning a championship means getting past the Warriors, with several superstars in their prime.

I have concerns that we will not have our best team focused either now, or in the future, because of the age differences, if we even are able to convince Jimmy to stay in two years. Perhaps we should consider trying to trade Wiggins for a win now piece? That is hard for me to get my head around as well.

We've got 2 guys who are in the rare categories of scoring 23-25 PPG who aren't even 23 yet. Most NBA scoring titles are won just a couple points higher than where Wiggins and KAT avg now. Their prime is probably going to come sooner than most stars in the NBA since they are both ROY's and 1st overall picks.

If Jimmy can accelerate other facets of their games, their best overall basketball game will come sooner than later rather than waiting it out with a 3rd player closer to age with them who doesn't even fit in with them.

Youre making a mountain out of an ant hill right now, and doing a damn good job at it.

My point is our foundation core is so ahead of their 95% of their peers at their age, having 2 of them is in rare waters. A third star "whos been there done that" can only be a positive thing.

Loyal[]Wolf · Post #99 » by **Loyal[]Wolf** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:13 pm

TwolvesFanRome wrote:That s Incredible...instead of being euphoric we are looking for what is wrong...

We acquire a All Star player...we have other 2 potential all star player...we have a free agency to improve our team...

Please, be happy and no more...

We have 3 future Hall-of-Famers. Towns and Wiggins at their age are massively producing. Jimmy is the new age Scottie Pippen. How often does that happen on a single team?

prefuse73 · Post #100 » by **prefuse73** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:15 pm

Let's flip the script and you tell me your plan with no Butler trade and convince me.

Either way this is the last offseason we will have cap. Lavine and Wiggins extension then KAT next year. So we would have what about 30M in cap to spend on one max free agent and a second tier guy.

Tell me who you draft and who you sign that will put us in a position to be a championship in 5 years after GS is done.