ImageImageImage

Priority

Moderators: Domejandro, Worm Guts, Calinks

Priority

Starting PG
9
10%
Starting PF
35
40%
Bench
39
44%
Other
5
6%
 
Total votes: 88

minimus
RealGM
Posts: 11,423
And1: 3,678
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: Priority 

Post#41 » by minimus » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:01 pm

shrink wrote:
minimus wrote:The narrative about Thibs not playing bench players is as popular as the story about Rubio hurting this team. Let me name a few players who prolonged their career or took a step forward as bench players under Thibs:

C.J. Watson, Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver, Omer Asik, John Lucas III and Brian Scalabrine, Kirk Hinrich, Marco Belinelli, Vladimir Radmanovic, Nazr Mohammed, Nate Robinson etc

P.S. Still I hope that Thibs finds better players than J.Hill

Watch this video, he sucked at basketball even before MIN.

Thibs has consistently had starters near the top of the NBA in minutes, whether it was Deng or Butler in CHI, or Wiggins, Towns and LaVine here.


Did you watch games? Every time when Thibs gave a rest to key players our bench could not either defend or score. Would you rather watch Jordan Hill and Payne? Or maybe it was rational to give LaVine, Wiggins and KAT extended playing time to get experience that they clearly lack?
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 54,665
And1: 14,004
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: Priority 

Post#42 » by shrink » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:09 pm

minimus wrote:
shrink wrote:
minimus wrote:The narrative about Thibs not playing bench players is as popular as the story about Rubio hurting this team. Let me name a few players who prolonged their career or took a step forward as bench players under Thibs:

C.J. Watson, Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver, Omer Asik, John Lucas III and Brian Scalabrine, Kirk Hinrich, Marco Belinelli, Vladimir Radmanovic, Nazr Mohammed, Nate Robinson etc

P.S. Still I hope that Thibs finds better players than J.Hill

Watch this video, he sucked at basketball even before MIN.

Thibs has consistently had starters near the top of the NBA in minutes, whether it was Deng or Butler in CHI, or Wiggins, Towns and LaVine here.


Did you watch games?

That's unnecessary.
minimus wrote:Every time when Thibs gave a rest to key players our bench could not either defend or score. Would you rather watch Jordan Hill and Payne? Or maybe it was rational to give LaVine, Wiggins and KAT extended playing time to get experience that they clearly lack?

I don't think we are talking about the same things here. If your point is, "thibs had some bench players in CHI do ok, so therefore he does play his bench," I agree that some bench players have done ok, but I don't think it proves that he doesn't play his bench. Thibs uses shorter rotations, and they play less minutes. Bench players who get PT because a starter goes down does not prove Thibs would have played him a lot if the original starter was an option.

I also don't buy "thibs had a bench bench, so he was forced to play the starters." Your first point demonstrates that he has not always had a bad bench. Still, if the five starters I mention, over a wide period of time, keep ending the season near the top of the nba in minutes or minutes/game, I tend to think that's more evidence than circumstance.
cupcakesnake wrote:I know a lot of people haven't seen him play, but no one is forcing you to make up an opinion and post it.
Sugarless
Starter
Posts: 2,455
And1: 1,978
Joined: Aug 12, 2004

Re: Priority 

Post#43 » by Sugarless » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:11 pm

shrink wrote:
Sugarless wrote:
shrink wrote:If you are going to compete with the Warriors, this is the way that it will have to be done. GSW is paying Steph, Durant, Draymond, and Klay. If they look ahead like this, it's going to be a fortune. However, they will gain added revenues from winning championships. I agree Gorgui gets moved later, just like GSW had to let Harrison Barnes go.


Wait, they *will* gain added revenues from winning championships? Then it's a given they not only will get to compete with probably the best team ever, but also beat them and everyone else? And more than once?

This is not NBA 2K. Competing with the Warriors should be the least of Minnesota's concerns this summer. These Wolves have not made the playoffs yet and they will continue to have weak links in the roster (i.e. an extremely poor and thin bench if you plan on giving one player that kind of money) and need to gel as a team regardless of who comes this summer. Having 4 max guys doesn't guarantee anything if they don't have a supporting cast or they don't click once they step on the court.

Going hard after a guy like Lowry at +30M would place a tremendous amount of stress on the Wolves financially over the next few years. It could also mean that two years from now, if Butler decides to sign with a different team instead of staying in Minnesota, you find yourself with KAT, Wiggins (who may or may not deserve his max contract by then) and a 33yo Kyle Lowry, and without the ability to sign quality free agents anymore. Hardly a team to be thinking about winning championships.

Nobody in this league is paying +115M to 4 players, not even the Warriors will after they sign Curry and KD this summer, and they have 2 of the best players in history (Wiggins and Towns are obviously not that, Jimmy Butler is not that, and neither are Lowry, Jrue or whoever you bring). They could also easily lose Klay Thompson in 2 years when he's a FA, before they even have to pay Draymond Green a new contract.

I'm sorry but it's a terrible, shortsighted idea and if Thibs and Layden have just one person on board that understands the cap implications of such a move, it just won't happen. Or it will against all common sense, and the Wolves will lose one of those 4 pieces along the way, cause it just isn't sustainable.


Ok, let me break this down for you.

1. Curry will make $28 mil next year, and Durant $32. Both can sign 1+1 deals to maximize their control in team decisions and eventual salaries. Both can get 20% raises the following year, so they can make $34 and $38. Klay and Draymond are still under contract for $36.5, so that's already $108.5 for four players. Not quite $115, but I think close enough that you can't immediately dismiss $115.

2. I don't know if MIN will take that path, but if the goal is to win a ring, it will take multiple superstars for any team to beat the multiple superstars of the Warriors.

3. It's nice to look down the road, but preventing actions now because you are worrying about paying luxury taxes in the July of 2020 does not factor in the volatility of the nba. Imagine if we based our decisions from the team in 2014 (Love, Zach, Derrick Williams) because we thought we knew where we would be now! I don't have a clear picture of February of 2020, who will succeed or fail, what players might be traded, if Jimmy Butler re-signs here, etc.

4. Superstar deals are expensive, but they are almost always valuable contracts. KAT or Wiggins will make the max, but because the CBA restricts the price to a percentage of the cap, these deals are almost always under market price. I don't know of Lowry would be under market price after three years, but KAT and Wiggins certainly would. One way to measure the best teams is by how much production they get for the money, and teams with productive max deals and rookie scale contracts do well. What I am saying is that even if everything was identical to our predictions for 2020, the value of those contracts gives a team the opportunity to trade them, and even make a profit.

I am probably one of the most money-conscious posters in RealGM, and I applaud you for being aware of luxury tax ramifications. Too many posters simply say, "our owner is rich, I want a better player now, so who cares - not my money!" That's not realistic. However, right now, with Towns on rookie scale for two more years, and Wiggins for one, it gives the Wolves an opportunity to not just sign a max player, but to stay under the lux for one and maybe even two years, so they wouldn't even pay lux taxes until year 3, and the repeater tax far down the road. These are precisely the times when you hope to grab a max deal.


There are no indications that KD and Curry will take the full extra 20% in a year, regardless of the 1+1 contract. If anything, they've said they're willing to sacrifice some money so the team can re-sign guys like Iguodala and Livingston this summer, and they'll probably do so again in the future as the Warriors will have to make a huge effort if they want to keep Klay Thompson on the team, only one year after their supposed 20% jump. But even if that happened, you're still not taking into account 3 critical factors:

1. The difference from 108M to 115M invested in 4 players when paying the luxury tax is huge. Even if you don't account for the repeater tax (which the Wolves wouldn't be paying until a few years from now, that's right), once you add the rest of the salaries on your roster it can take you from paying 1.75$ per dollar over the luxury tax threshold to 3.25$.

2. The most important aspect of those presumed 108M is the fact that they would only be paying that for a year. One year later (2019) they would have to re-sign Klay Thompson if they wanted to keep the core intact, and in another year they would face a new critical increase with Green's new deal. *If* they were willing to pay them both, which is yet to be seen, cause even the Warriors have a limit.

3. And this takes us to the third factor: Minnesota is a small market with little appeal for most outsiders, not the most loyal or best established fanbase, they've been out of the playoffs for 13 years already and they won't have superstars even if they add someone like Lowry (their best chance is Towns, but it may take a while yet). They're second to last in franchise valuation according to Forbes at 770M, and even after their most succesful season ever, with a true superstar and one of the league's icons in KG and two other stars in the team, they couldn't make it past 16th in the league. The Warriors play in the Bay Area and are moving to SF in the future. They have two all-time top-20 players to go along with Klay and Green, they've dominated the league for 3 years already and they were a playoff team before that, they're currently the 3rd most valuable franchise in the league at 2.6B (and growing at an extreme rate, not only for the product they put on the court but also in other areas), and they've always had a great fanbase even through years of constant losing. So to sum it up, they have inherent advantages in terms of location, they're excellent at marketing their brand, they have at least two future first ballot HOFers, and they have maybe the strongest team in the history of the league, with a pretty good chance at becoming a dynasty. They can afford to pay 4 post TV deal max contract, and it's still not sure it'll happen. The Wolves have none of that, they're on a completely different situation as a franchise, and you want them to go beyond what the Dubs will be paying the next couple of years like you're going to fight them with their own weapons. I'm sorry, but I think it's preposterous, and an excellent way to burden the future of a young team that up until one week ago had the same fans asking for patience.
TheProdigy
Starter
Posts: 2,362
And1: 1,015
Joined: Feb 21, 2001

Re: Priority 

Post#44 » by TheProdigy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:35 pm

shrink wrote:To answer the main question, MIN's bench may be the piece that is farthest from competitive NBA quality, but that does not make it the highest priority. There are many bench-level players in the nba, and because there are so many, they become cheaper and easier to acquire. This only gets easier as a team gets stronger and more successful (think "David West"). This lower priority to the bench is magnified because our coach is Thibs, who has never played the bench much, regardless of his team.

The priority should be to add one of those rarer, high quality talents. Players like these outcompete their counterparts every night, provide insurance against injury to one of your other stars, and provide a tent pole to support the organization, and make the team a better free agent destination.

This is 100% correct. The best way to build a franchise these days is to accumulate 3 - 4 superstar caliber players. Obviously this causes cap issues, but as we've seen with GS and Cleveland, they have no problem signing older vets who want to chase rings for reasonable or below market value contracts.

This offseason is our last opportunity to add a significant asset in free agency during the Towns and Wiggins era. Sure we will go over the cap when they're due for contracts, but the luxury tax line is $119 million. As long as we don't go significantly over the luxury tax, we should be fine. The key will be rounding out the roster with MLEs and vet minimums.
theGreatRC
RealGM
Posts: 18,466
And1: 4,881
Joined: Oct 12, 2006
Location: California
 

Re: Priority 

Post#45 » by theGreatRC » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:17 am

Just by looking at the poll, glad Wolves fans picked the right choice. It was so obvious that our bench absolutely killed us for most of the season. Every time KAT/Wigg/Ricky/Zach went out, you had to pray someone on our bench was feeling a little hot & could make a few buckets.

I personally think our starting 5 is fine with Jimmy coming in & the projected improvements of KAT & Wigg next year. We have one of the better starting 5s in the west IMO

We need a shot creator off the bench; Zach would have been so deadly on this team with Jimmy on it, but we need someone like that. A microwave type player that just gets buckets.

PF came in 2nd in the poll, but getting a new PF instantly makes the bench a little stronger too with Gorgui coming in for KAT.
Dysfunctional Wolves fan
User avatar
prefuse73
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,572
And1: 44
Joined: Feb 15, 2006
Location: W1T1SG
         

Re: Priority 

Post#46 » by prefuse73 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:30 am

PF and Bench are 1a and 1b. A starting quality, defensive oriented PF which allows Towns to be a full time center and focus on paint protection rather than chasing perimeter 4's around. Also strengthens bench by moving Dieng to 3rd big status. If I was confident Patton can be our future PF, I would sign Taj Gibson, but I think JaMychal Green i still the best fit at the most reasonable price (probably 18M). At 27 years old, we will lock him up for his prime and in 4 years, hopefully Patton is ready.

Bench is a huge need, but we can fill in there with people like Snell, Casspi, Miles, etc.
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 54,665
And1: 14,004
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: Priority 

Post#47 » by shrink » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:39 pm

I just listened to the Dunc'd On Mock Off-season, and it was amazing how quickly the free agent money dried up, and how little it cost to bring in decent bench free agents, after the higher level guys pulled money out of the system. Shabazz, for example, was happy to be able to get an $8 mil, one year deal, (which is under the MLE), because other guys were getting a lot less.

To me, this reinforces my opinion that while the bench is the are where we are least competitive, it is not our greatest priority. It will not take much to get a good bench if we are patient, because supply and demand will make bench players desperate to find a team to play for.

This also shows me that we need to move Cole Aldrich for space as soon as possible. I think Cole had a neutral contract by last year's standards, at $7.3 this year, and a $6.95 TEAM option in 2018, with $2 mil guaranteed. However, if we can move him, we could use that cap space to try to help bring in a star, but if we failed, we could probably get two, better, bench players for that money than Aldrich.
cupcakesnake wrote:I know a lot of people haven't seen him play, but no one is forcing you to make up an opinion and post it.
Ghost of RC
Ballboy
Posts: 2
And1: 1
Joined: Jun 27, 2017
 

Re: Priority 

Post#48 » by Ghost of RC » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:13 pm

Keep Rubio because I agree there aren't better point guards for the price.. pick up JaMychal Green from Memphis as a back-up/starting ower forward.. I love his game and there is no way Memphis can keep him.
Feilong
Veteran
Posts: 2,872
And1: 1,029
Joined: Jan 26, 2014

Re: Priority 

Post#49 » by Feilong » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:49 pm

Try for Green for <14M? If not i hope Gibson with a small discount for <12M because of Thibs.
I don't mind giving McLemore a shot for <5M. Maybe Dunleavy for <4M.
I don't want to throw big money at Lowry/Milsap (age) or Holiday (not worth it).
TheProdigy
Starter
Posts: 2,362
And1: 1,015
Joined: Feb 21, 2001

Re: Priority 

Post#50 » by TheProdigy » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:01 pm

Feilong wrote:Try for Green for <14M? If not i hope Gibson with a small discount for <12M because of Thibs.
I don't mind giving McLemore a shot for <5M. Maybe Dunleavy for <4M.
I don't want to throw big money at Lowry/Milsap (age) or Holiday (not worth it).

I am really struggling to understand the reason we should use our cap space to sign JaMychal Green to this roster. Please let me know what I'm missing here... According to RPM, he is rated the #31 best PF in the league. We already have 3 superior big men on the roster (Towns, Bjelica, Dieng) as well as a guy we want to develop (Patton).

So wouldn't it make more sense to use the majority of our cap space to strengthen our depth behind Wiggins and Butler?
Feilong
Veteran
Posts: 2,872
And1: 1,029
Joined: Jan 26, 2014

Re: Priority 

Post#51 » by Feilong » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:26 pm

DaKidKG wrote:
Feilong wrote:Try for Green for <14M? If not i hope Gibson with a small discount for <12M because of Thibs.
I don't mind giving McLemore a shot for <5M. Maybe Dunleavy for <4M.
I don't want to throw big money at Lowry/Milsap (age) or Holiday (not worth it).

I am really struggling to understand the reason we should use our cap space to sign JaMychal Green to this roster. Please let me know what I'm missing here... According to RPM, he is rated the #31 best PF in the league. We already have 3 superior big men on the roster (Towns, Bjelica, Dieng) as well as a guy we want to develop (Patton).

So wouldn't it make more sense to use the majority of our cap space to strengthen our depth behind Wiggins and Butler?


High energy guy that doesn't need a lot of touches. 38% 3p (stretch PF), good FT%, good rebounder, decent defender.
Dieng unfortunately is not a PF and we can't afford to pay him 14M to play backup. Sooner or later we will trade him imo.
Streakers33
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,921
And1: 202
Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Re: Priority 

Post#52 » by Streakers33 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:39 pm

Go after green or milsap. Pick one. I ok with both.. if we strike out.. the idea of cole to LA for deng/future first or deng/randle seems like a good spot then.. as deng would actually play here..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
User avatar
phonzadellika
Rookie
Posts: 1,172
And1: 178
Joined: Feb 04, 2011
   

Re: Priority 

Post#53 » by phonzadellika » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:52 pm

Streakers33 wrote:Go after green or milsap. Pick one. I ok with both.. if we strike out.. the idea of cole to LA for deng/future first or deng/randle seems like a good spot then.. as deng would actually play here..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Milsap is my first choice as well. I'd be just as happy with Griffin. Slightly less happy but still pretty happy with Ibaka. I'd be ok with Patterson, Mirotic, or Green.

If Dieng is the starting PF on this roster after free agency then I'm going to be pretty disappointed because I think he's the starter who contributes the least amount to future wins at this point. I can understand wanting an upgrade from Rubio but not at the expense of keeping Dieng in the starting lineup.
MN7725
Veteran
Posts: 2,649
And1: 1,060
Joined: Jun 19, 2017

Re: Priority 

Post#54 » by MN7725 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:03 pm

shrink wrote:I just listened to the Dunc'd On Mock Off-season, and it was amazing how quickly the free agent money dried up, and how little it cost to bring in decent bench free agents, after the higher level guys pulled money out of the system. Shabazz, for example, was happy to be able to get an $8 mil, one year deal, (which is under the MLE), because other guys were getting a lot less.

To me, this reinforces my opinion that while the bench is the are where we are least competitive, it is not our greatest priority. It will not take much to get a good bench if we are patient, because supply and demand will make bench players desperate to find a team to play for.

This also shows me that we need to move Cole Aldrich for space as soon as possible. I think Cole had a neutral contract by last year's standards, at $7.3 this year, and a $6.95 TEAM option in 2018, with $2 mil guaranteed. However, if we can move him, we could use that cap space to try to help bring in a star, but if we failed, we could probably get two, better, bench players for that money than Aldrich.


My thought too

Really didn't see much difference between the guys who were getting $8-10 mil and the guys left who will probably be getting minimum contracts

And I thought they were being conservative if anything with the higher level players, so the $$ available likely will run out even sooner

Do everything possible to get a star caliber player, and use Butler and new star to attract the best possible "leftovers", which there will be since so many teams are locked into the $ they spent in 2016.
Slim Tubby
Starter
Posts: 2,321
And1: 1,751
Joined: Jun 03, 2017
         

Re: Priority 

Post#55 » by Slim Tubby » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:02 pm

Dieng is a fantastic option coming off the bench at C or PF for this team but not the ideal starter. I'd be completely satisfied with Gibson or Patterson on team-friendly deals that allow us to fill out the bench. Can someone explain to me how the MLE and "Room" exceptions work? Are they the same thing? Do we have the ability to use both this year?
Glen Taylor: "Is this moron #1 (Layden)? Put moron #2 (Thibs) on the phone."
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 54,665
And1: 14,004
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: Priority 

Post#56 » by shrink » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:28 pm

Slim Tubby wrote:Can someone explain to me how the MLE and "Room" exceptions work? Are they the same thing? Do we have the ability to use both this year?

If a team is over the salary cap, but below the lux threshold, they get the MLE for $8.4. There is also a lower, tax-payer MLE for $5.2.

If they go under the cap and use cap space, they get the room exception for $4.3. This allows them to spend their cap space up to the salary cap, then go over with the room exception.

In addition, the Biannual Exception still exists, so every other year, a team can use that for $3.3
cupcakesnake wrote:I know a lot of people haven't seen him play, but no one is forcing you to make up an opinion and post it.
Biggsohnasty
Sophomore
Posts: 208
And1: 33
Joined: Apr 13, 2017
       

Re: Priority 

Post#57 » by Biggsohnasty » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:10 pm

So the Wolves have a 5.2 MLE, a 4.3 'room exception' and a 3.3 BAE?
User avatar
Takingbaconback
Head Coach
Posts: 6,942
And1: 2,582
Joined: Jun 22, 2013
       

Re: Priority 

Post#58 » by Takingbaconback » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:15 pm

Trade Rubio for Danny Green and 2018 1st round pick.

Sign patty mills and ingles

Mills/Wiggins/butler/dieng/KAT
Tyus/Green/Ingles/Bjelica/Aldrich or Patton
Note30
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,287
And1: 1,516
Joined: Feb 25, 2014
 

Re: Priority 

Post#59 » by Note30 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:17 pm

Biggsohnasty wrote:So the Wolves have a 5.2 MLE, a 4.3 'room exception' and a 3.3 BAE?


No. its either the 5.2 or 4.3
frankenwolf wrote:I hope you eat every one of these words next year when the Timberwolves are world champions

[*]-Mar 2023 in reference to the Gobert trade.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 54,665
And1: 14,004
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: Priority 

Post#60 » by shrink » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:59 pm

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

All exceptions are exceptions to the rule that prevents teams from signing players over the salary cap. Therefore, al exception carry cap holds. If we are going to use our cap space up to the salary cap, we have to renounce the MLE, BAE and any TPE's. However, the room exception is produced if a team renounces their MLE.

In other words, if we stayed over the cap somehow, we could keep the full MLE and BAE. However, we will probably renounce both, use our cap space, and only have the room exception left. No BAE, even though we didn't use it last year.
cupcakesnake wrote:I know a lot of people haven't seen him play, but no one is forcing you to make up an opinion and post it.

Return to Minnesota Timberwolves