What is Andrew Wiggins Ceiling ?

[AirP.]

We are arguing about how much we think a guy will improve. Will he improve as much as that guy....or not improve like that guy. It seems like a stupid thing to argue about because we don't know one way or the other. I know both Mitchell and Thibs both think a lot of him based on comments they have made and also comments APSportsGuy and other people in the media. There is a huge difference between college basketball and the NBA....some guys improve quickly....others it takes a while longer. It seems kind of strange we think Wiggins might not improve considering his athletic ability and age.

Well, there are things we judge people in the NBA which are called stats and I've stated multiple times how his rate of getting rebounds, assists, TS%, steals, blocks... you know stats haven't improved or really declined in 3 full years in the NBA, what if he does nearly the same thing his 4th year? Is he worth a max contract, because if he doesn't improve a good amount you are stuck with that bad max contract with a team that might have championship aspirations but not the bench to get there because of one or even 2 bad contracts. Building a team with max potential players is fine, building a championship team and hoping a player is one day worth the max is really risking the ceiling of the team.

He could end up great, not sure I've seen many top picks just do meh their first 3 years and then bust out, I may be wrong.

[Ethomasp31]

We are arguing about how much we think a guy will improve. Will he improve as much as that guy....or not improve like that guy. It seems like a stupid thing to argue about because we don't know one way or the other. I know both Mitchell and Thibs both think a lot of him based on comments they have made and also comments APSportsGuy and other people in the media. There is a huge difference between college basketball and the NBA....some guys improve quickly....others it takes a while longer. It seems kind of strange we think Wiggins might not improve considering his athletic ability and age.

Well, there are things we judge people in the NBA which are called stats and I've stated multiple times how his rate of getting rebounds, assists, TS%, steals, blocks... you know stats haven't improved or really declined in 3 full years in the NBA, what if he does nearly the same thing his 4th year? Is he worth a max contract, because if he doesn't improve a good amount you are stuck with that bad max contract with a team that might have championship aspirations but not the bench to get there because of one or even 2 bad contracts. Building a team with max potential players is fine, building a championship team and hoping a player is one day worth the max is really risking the ceiling of the team.

He could end up great, not sure I've seen many top picks just do meh their first 3 years and then bust out, I may be wrong.

I'm more concerned about the overpay for Dieng and Gibson. No one would have paid out those contracts on an open market.

[AirP.]

You are a broken record with Wiggins. I think I said I wouldn't engage you on him anymore and I won't. If I ever reply to anything you have to say about Wiggins remind me not to please. Thanks.

You say nothing but potential and he made more buckets because he took more shots? Who cares if he was the main focus, Bargnani was that for Toronto and never panned out after being the #1 pick in 2006. I've shown stat after stat that has not gotten any better, most experts agree he's bad on defense even though he had the potential to be a good defensive player.

I don't know what to say, you just say no... he was #1, he's athletic so he has potential, me, I'm just asking for evidence other then those 2 facts because the numbers don't really say he's made much improvement in 3 years of being GIFTED 35 minutes a night for development and with no pressure to win.

He had the potential to be a good defensive player.
What does this actually mean
So that potential just left Andrew wiggens and he can't get any better on defense

What year is it going to happen in, year 4, year 6, year 8? He's had 3 years of 35+ minutes a game. Who knows maybe with him not having to guard the good wing he'll look ok, but that's not really worth a max contract, that's all, he's going to be a solid player.

[AirP.]

We are arguing about how much we think a guy will improve. Will he improve as much as that guy....or not improve like that guy. It seems like a stupid thing to argue about because we don't know one way or the other. I know both Mitchell and Thibs both think a lot of him based on comments they have made and also comments APSportsGuy and other people in the media. There is a huge difference between college basketball and the NBA....some guys improve quickly....others it takes a while longer. It seems kind of strange we think Wiggins might not improve considering his athletic ability and age.

Well, there are things we judge people in the NBA which are called stats and I've stated multiple times how his rate of getting rebounds, assists, TS%, steals, blocks... you know stats haven't improved or really declined in 3 full years in the NBA, what if he does nearly the same thing his 4th year? Is he worth a max contract, because if he doesn't improve a good amount you are stuck with that bad max contract with a team that might have championship aspirations but not the bench to get there because of one or even 2 bad contracts. Building a team with max potential players is fine, building a championship team and hoping a player is one day worth the max is really risking the ceiling of the team.

He could end up great, not sure I've seen many top picks just do meh their first 3 years and then bust out, I may be wrong.

I'm more concerned about the overpay for Dieng and Gibson. No one would have paid out those contracts on an open market.

Gibson was overpaid to take less years, I get that, Dieng... eh? You may be right. I'd be looking to move him even though for some reason the team plays statistically better with him on the court, meaning he's a good complementary player, individual stats can't support that, just team ones.

[Ethomasp31]

Well, there are things we judge people in the NBA which are called stats and I've stated multiple times how his rate of getting rebounds, assists, TS%, steals, blocks... you know stats haven't improved or really declined in 3 full years in the NBA, what if he does nearly the same thing his 4th year? Is he worth a max contract, because if he doesn't improve a good amount you are stuck with that bad max contract with a team that might have championship aspirations but not the bench to get there because of one or even 2 bad contracts. Building a team with max potential players is fine, building a championship team and hoping a player is one day worth the max is really risking the ceiling of the team.

He could end up great, not sure I've seen many top picks just do meh their first 3 years and then bust out, I may be wrong.

I'm more concerned about the overpay for Dieng and Gibson. No one would have paid out those contracts on an open market.

Gibson was overpaid to take less years, I get that, Dieng... eh? You may be right. I'd be looking to move him even though for some reason the team plays statistically better with him on the court, meaning he's a good complementary player, individual stats can't support that, just team ones.

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

[delux55]

In the year dieng got signed that was the market for bigs. If he needed to be resigned a year later maybe different story. He is slightly overpaid but fills a need and is a solid player. Everyone can't be a stud need unselfish role players to fill out rosters

[KGdaBom]

I'm more concerned about the overpay for Dieng and Gibson. No one would have paid out those contracts on an open market.

Gibson was overpaid to take less years, I get that, Dieng... eh? You may be right. I'd be looking to move him even though for some reason the team plays statistically better with him on the court, meaning he's a good complementary player, individual stats can't support that, just team ones.

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

WTH is this. Dieng shoots over 50% from the field over 80 % from the line gets about 8 boards a block and a steal per game and shoots 37% from three. Only player in the NBA who does all that besides Dieng is Durant. Dieng isn't Durant, but he is a fine all around player.
Where you getting this idea that he's garbage. He is not overpaid at all.

[Ethomasp31]

Gibson was overpaid to take less years, I get that, Dieng... eh? You may be right. I'd be looking to move him even though for some reason the team plays statistically better with him on the court, meaning he's a good complementary player, individual stats can't support that, just team ones.

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

WTH is this. Dieng shoots over 50% from the field over 80 % from the line gets about 8 boards a block and a steal per game and shoots 37% from three. Only player in the NBA who does all that besides Dieng is Durant. Dieng isn't Durant, but he is a fine all around player.
Where you getting this idea that he's garbage. He is not overpaid at all.

The salary cap didn't go up as much as it was expected to go up. I'm just saying I doubt if he was on the open market, he would have been able to sign a contract like the one he got last summer/fall. It's not that he is bad, but just a little overpaid.

[KGdaBom]

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

WTH is this. Dieng shoots over 50% from the field over 80 % from the line gets about 8 boards a block and a steal per game and shoots 37% from three. Only player in the NBA who does all that besides Dieng is Durant. Dieng isn't Durant, but he is a fine all around player.
Where you getting this idea that he's garbage. He is not overpaid at all.

The salary cap didn't go up as much as it was expected to go up. I'm just saying I doubt if he was on the open market, he would have been able to sign a contract like the one he got last summer/fall. It's not that he is bad, but just a little overpaid.

I get that if he was in this years market he might have got a bit less than he got previously. I don't think much less. I'm glad you don't think he is bad but how about saying he is good. Almost nobody puts up numbers like that.

[Ethomasp31]

WTH is this. Dieng shoots over 50% from the field over 80 % from the line gets about 8 boards a block and a steal per game and shoots 37% from three. Only player in the NBA who does all that besides Dieng is Durant. Dieng isn't Durant, but he is a fine all around player.
Where you getting this idea that he's garbage. He is not overpaid at all.

The salary cap didn't go up as much as it was expected to go up. I'm just saying I doubt if he was on the open market, he would have been able to sign a contract like the one he got last summer/fall. It's not that he is bad, but just a little overpaid.

I get that if he was in this years market he might have got a bit less than he got previously. I don't think much less. I'm glad you don't think he is bad but how about saying he is good. Almost nobody puts up numbers like that.

Common man he is fine...but the average is 10 points a game… A little less than eight rebounds a game… And a little less than two assists a game. He makes a three point shot once every five games… And isn't really a rim protector. He shoots free throws pretty well… But really he's the first big man off the bench on a decent team. His contract isn't a disaster… But I think he's a little bit overpaid.

[KGdaBom]

The salary cap didn't go up as much as it was expected to go up. I'm just saying I doubt if he was on the open market, he would have been able to sign a contract like the one he got last summer/fall. It's not that he is bad, but just a little overpaid.

I get that if he was in this years market he might have got a bit less than he got previously. I don't think much less. I'm glad you don't think he is bad but how about saying he is good. Almost nobody puts up numbers like that.

Common man he is fine...but the average is 10 points a game… A little less than eight rebounds a game… And a little less than two assists a game. He makes a three point shot once every five games… And isn't really a rim protector. He shoots free throws pretty well… But really he's the first big man off the bench on a decent team. His contract isn't a disaster… But I think he's a little bit overpaid.

Not a prolific scorer, but 10 points a game on over 50% over 80% over 37% and he gets 8 boards a game round up from 7.9. He gets a combined 2.5 blocks/steals per game. How many players you think there are in the league that average over a block and steal each? He doesn't shoot many threes but when he does they go in once again demonstrating his excellent shooting touch.


Why do you want to act like all that is nothing. He's a power forward/Center. Based on his blocked shot numbers he is a pretty good rim protector. So what if he only gets 2 assists per game rounded up from 1.9. His numbers are exactly what you would be looking for in a player teamed up with 4 guys who averaged 90 points per game.

[minimus]

The problem with Dieng aren't numbers, but overall impact. Our defense sucked last year and he was a part of the problem. He is a decent player, he does all dirty work, but you need to be a special one if you want to be a part of winning team. I hope that Gibson and Butler will have this type of influence on our young players. They will teach them how to impact the game outside of scoring. Last season we were good at scoring, but once the defense was tighten up we got lost. I hope Butler and Gibson will show how all these little things matter for winning, for instance off ball movement, positioning and rebounding, setting good screens, proper rotations etc. A bit more of consistency, smart efforts will help us a lot.

[Zeitgeister]

You are a broken record with Wiggins. I think I said I wouldn't engage you on him anymore and I won't. If I ever reply to anything you have to say about Wiggins remind me not to please. Thanks.

You say nothing but potential and he made more buckets because he took more shots? Who cares if he was the main focus, Bargnani was that for Toronto and never panned out after being the #1 pick in 2006. I've shown stat after stat that has not gotten any better, most experts agree he's bad on defense even though he had the potential to be a good defensive player.

I don't know what to say, you just say no... he was #1, he's athletic so he has potential, me, I'm just asking for evidence other then those 2 facts because the numbers don't really say he's made much improvement in 3 years of being GIFTED 35 minutes a night for development and with no pressure to win.

He had the potential to be a good defensive player.
What does this actually mean
So that potential just left Andrew wiggens and he can't get any better on defense

He has potential but after three seasons and a couple seasons operating under the tutelage of either Kevin Garnett or Tom Thibadeau while still being absolutely dreadful defensively, the likelihood that he becomes even a good defender is much more in question. The effort isn't there, the ability to see plays as they happen and use his ferrari athletic tools to make defensive plays isn't there. I think it's far more likely that he improves to being simply passable, mostly mediocre defensively rather than someone who is elite or very good on that end.

[AirP.]

I'm more concerned about the overpay for Dieng and Gibson. No one would have paid out those contracts on an open market.

Gibson was overpaid to take less years, I get that, Dieng... eh? You may be right. I'd be looking to move him even though for some reason the team plays statistically better with him on the court, meaning he's a good complementary player, individual stats can't support that, just team ones.

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

Kobe's 3pt% went down but basically every other stat rate went up, especially when he finally got a lot of minutes, something he wasn't given in his couple of years for development. If last year had been Wiggins first big minutes year then that actually be different in progression but he's had 3 35+ minute years already.

[AirP.]

Gibson was overpaid to take less years, I get that, Dieng... eh? You may be right. I'd be looking to move him even though for some reason the team plays statistically better with him on the court, meaning he's a good complementary player, individual stats can't support that, just team ones.

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

WTH is this. Dieng shoots over 50% from the field over 80 % from the line gets about 8 boards a block and a steal per game and shoots 37% from three. Only player in the NBA who does all that besides Dieng is Durant. Dieng isn't Durant, but he is a fine all around player.
Where you getting this idea that he's garbage. He is not overpaid at all.

With 3 max players not sure you can pay a big that type of money without hurting the rest of your rotation. In 2 years Minnesota's going to have 3 max contracts, so can you give 15-18 of what's left to just Dieng? Dieng's contract is reasonable, it just may not be reasonable when you have 3 max contracts already.

[Ethomasp31]

Gibson was overpaid to take less years, I get that, Dieng... eh? You may be right. I'd be looking to move him even though for some reason the team plays statistically better with him on the court, meaning he's a good complementary player, individual stats can't support that, just team ones.

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

Kobe's 3pt% went down but basically every other stat rate went up, especially when he finally got a lot of minutes, something he wasn't given in his couple of years for development. If last year had been Wiggins first big minutes year then that actually be different in progression but he's had 3 35+ minute years already.

Kobe's stats are almost identical to Wiggins in his 3rd year in the league. He was also playing on a team that was way better than the Wolves, so he was put into a lot better position. Again, no one would have guessed Kobe would become the player he became after his 3rd season in the league. You are making guesses on Wiggins progression and betting he will fail. I'm not willing to make that bet.

[shrink]

I don't think our defense sucked because of Dieng - I think it sucked despite Dieng.

Dieng is a pretty decent lateral defender, and switch defender. Unfortunately, Towns often left his man, either because he was confused or he was trying to freelance in a team concept, and Dieng often had to pay the price.

Thibs loves the guy, extended him, and called him our most improved player last year. I don't think he would ever do such things for a guy that was a problem defensively.

[SmokeyPaw]

I don't think our defense sucked because of Dieng - I think it sucked despite Dieng.

Dieng is a pretty decent lateral defender, and switch defender. Unfortunately, Towns often left his man, either because he was confused or he was trying to freelance in a team concept, and Dieng often had to pay the price.

Thibs loves the guy, extended him, and called him our most improved player last year. I don't think he would ever do such things for a guy that was a problem defensively.

Thibs also pointed out in an interview that dieng was more advanced in defensive communication than towns - such as when a screen is coming. I keep thinking that this is a skill that is under discussed. Wolves defense was always better when Garnett was on the floor even though his athleticism was gone.

[Ethomasp31]

Thought this was interesting....

Read on Twitter

[AirP.]

I don't think Dieng would have gotten $10 million a year on the open market. Not everyone progresses at the same speed. Kobe's three point percentage went from 38% to 34% to 27.8% his first three years. At that point I'm sure no one thought he would ever be he player he became.

I don't know when Wiggins is going to make the improvement you aren't expecting him to make. But I'm guessing he will make that improvement and in 5 years will be better than what Butler is today.

Kobe's 3pt% went down but basically every other stat rate went up, especially when he finally got a lot of minutes, something he wasn't given in his couple of years for development. If last year had been Wiggins first big minutes year then that actually be different in progression but he's had 3 35+ minute years already.

Kobe's stats are almost identical to Wiggins in his 3rd year in the league. He was also playing on a team that was way better than the Wolves, so he was put into a lot better position. Again, no one would have guessed Kobe would become the player he became after his 3rd season in the league. You are making guesses on Wiggins progression and betting he will fail. I'm not willing to make that bet.

He showed progression, not 3 years nearly the same exact thing except for FGA = scoring and 3pt%. It's uncanny how much Wiggins stat rates are nearly exactly the same all 3 years.