The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo

[urinesane]

Figured the discussion will keep going considering he most likely won't be traded (given the max extension talks) for Irving, or his superior (Otto Porter Jr).

I still think it's unfair to judge a young player against older players with more experience, as if experience and physical maturity aren't massive factors when trying to compete at the highest level in a professional sport.

One question I'll ask to those basically writing off Wiggins (and I'm not trying to be a douche here):

How much different were you physically from the time you were age 19 to 25?

It seems like either people (that don't actually do anything physically difficult) are throwing peanuts from the cheap seats or maybe peaked physically in high school.

[walk with me]

Let's get one thing straight...

Otto Porter IS NOT better than Andrew Wiggins.

[Zeitgeister]

Wiggins grew up in an NBA household. Wiggins has nearly 9000 minutes of NBA basketball being force fed the ball and being given the green light to shoot the ball when he wants. Statistically, Wiggins has shown infinitesimally small improvement mainly in how many shots per game he takes and this is evident in watching the games too.

Stop pretending that there's no information to be garnered from that information, especially when we're talking about signing this kid to a long term contract that will hamstring us if he's not worth the money.

I mean, if Wiggins was really as good as you guys think he is and I'd assume you don't think Towns is trash, the Wolves should have won a lot more games. It's really that simple. So if the win/loss should at least tell some of the story, if it doesn't then you need to be able to explain your reasoning as to why the Wolves didn't win more.

Sure, Wiggins has shown a Eurostep in the past couple years, his ball handling has improved some, and his jump shot was better this year. But by and large these small improvements have not translated to anything meaningful that contributes much towards winning basketball games yet and I think that's where the big disconnect is, not to mention that there's a staunch anti-intellectual approach with some of the posters on this board towards statistical information.

[Mattya]

There isn't an anti-intellectual approach. There is a skepticism on how much a significant majority rely on and present their statistics and their understanding of them.

[Zeitgeister]

There isn't an anti-intellectual approach. There is a skepticism on how much a significant majority rely on and present their statistics and their understanding of them.

So why don't you present an argument as to why the statistics say Wiggins is a below average player and why you think they are wrong.

[PharmD]

Figured the discussion will keep going considering he most likely won't be traded (given the max extension talks) for Irving, or his superior (Otto Porter Jr).

I still think it's unfair to judge a young player against older players with more experience, as if experience and physical maturity aren't massive factors when trying to compete at the highest level in a professional sport.

One question I'll ask to those basically writing off Wiggins (and I'm not trying to be a douche here):

How much different were you physically from the time you were age 19 to 25?

It seems like either people (that don't actually do anything physically difficult) are throwing peanuts from the cheap seats or maybe peaked physically in high school.

lol i was muuuuch fatter at age 25.

[Neeva]

He better show a lot of improvement this upcoming season in defense/rebounding/assisting, if he doesn't I am done with him.

[LibertyPrime]

He better show a lot of improvement this upcoming season in defense/rebounding/assisting, if he doesn't I am done with him.

He doesn't have to cover for Zach anymore, and we've subtracted Zach and Shabazz and added Jimmy and Taj. Overall defense should be much improved for that reason alone (at least in the first unit; the second unit will still suck in that regard, unless something changes radically between now and the beginning of the season) and he shouldn't have to cover the best wing all the time. I'd be happy if his rebounding stayed where it is if he moved to SG.

I don't care about his individual stats that much, as long as he's part of a team that puts up considerably more W's.

[Mattya]

There isn't an anti-intellectual approach. There is a skepticism on how much a significant majority rely on and present their statistics and their understanding of them.

So why don't you present an argument as to why the statistics say Wiggins is a below average player and why you think they are wrong.

I have plenty of times. Not wasting anymore time on people who are self proclaimed "intellectuals" on the internet.

[Zeitgeister]

There isn't an anti-intellectual approach. There is a skepticism on how much a significant majority rely on and present their statistics and their understanding of them.

So why don't you present an argument as to why the statistics say Wiggins is a below average player and why you think they are wrong.

I have plenty of times. Not wasting anymore time on people who are self proclaimed "intellectuals" on the internet.

Don't twist my own words with those who side with you on the argument. It is urinesane and many others like him who claim those who use statistics "don't actually do anything physically difficult" or "don't watch the games" and they reject statistics outright because they contradict their opinions. It's an anti-intellectual approach, there's really no two ways about it especially when they (and now you)are not actually providing a substantive argument that doesn't use statistical evidence. I gave you a chance to explain your argument but instead you copped out while pretending to be morally superior.

[Mattya]

So why don't you present an argument as to why the statistics say Wiggins is a below average player and why you think they are wrong.

I have plenty of times. Not wasting anymore time on people who are self proclaimed "intellectuals" on the internet.

Don't twist my own words with those who side with you on the argument. It is urinesane and many others like him who claim those who use statistics "don't actually do anything physically difficult" or "don't watch the games" and they reject statistics outright because they contradict their opinions. It's an anti-intellectual approach, there's really no two ways about it especially when they (and now you)are not actually providing a substantive argument that doesn't use statistical evidence. I gave you a chance to explain your argument but instead you copped out while pretending to be morally superior.

You are the poster presenting yourself as the "intellectual" side. Don't blame me when you choose words that make you look pretentious. If you take me not wanting to waste my time on you as a win, then you go right ahead, you probably should.

[thinktank]

1. Towns advanced stats on D were awful last year, too. Is he also destined for a career of poor defense? Don't think so. These guys are young.

2. Wiggins has been drinking from the usage firehose on both offense and defense. On O, being first option, learning to run the O on key possessions, shooting at the ends of shot clocks. On defense he's guarding the other teams' best wing with no help whatsoever.

Experience, an improved cast, and reduced workload are three huge factors that will do wonders for Wiggins' advanced stats this year.

Watch.

[AirP.]

He better show a lot of improvement this upcoming season in defense/rebounding/assisting, if he doesn't I am done with him.

In that situation you may be done with him, but at or close to the max you're going to have to deal with him because he won't bring much. He'll still be a good player, just not a good value at the max. I think that's what a lot of people don't get... you can be a good player but not be a good value at or near a max contract. It's not he's going to be a superstar or dud, there's a lot of room between those 2 options.

[urinesane]

So why don't you present an argument as to why the statistics say Wiggins is a below average player and why you think they are wrong.

I have plenty of times. Not wasting anymore time on people who are self proclaimed "intellectuals" on the internet.

Don't twist my own words with those who side with you on the argument. It is urinesane and many others like him who claim those who use statistics "don't actually do anything physically difficult" or "don't watch the games" and they reject statistics outright because they contradict their opinions. It's an anti-intellectual approach, there's really no two ways about it especially when they (and now you)are not actually providing a substantive argument that doesn't use statistical evidence. I gave you a chance to explain your argument but instead you copped out while pretending to be morally superior.

Asks someone to not twist their own words then immediately twists someone else's words...

My point isn't that stats mean nothing, but rather that context does mean something (which you have shown ZERO ability to use). If you think someone at 21-22 years old is who they have always been (and will be), because they haven't improved enough statistically for your liking since they were 19 years old, you're not an intellectual in any sense of the word.

My question about whether or not anyone has done physically difficult things, is because we are sitting here judging people in their early 20's trying to do something very difficult physically AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN THE WORLD. I think you need to take a moment and understand that before you play computer chair GM.

The average age in the NBA is 26.5 years old. If you were 21 and had to compete against the best 26 year olds in the world, how would you fair? Now extend that to people in their late 20's and early 30's. Yeah... it wouldn't be pretty.

BUT THEY GET PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS! WHY SHOULD I FEEL BAD? (I just figured I'd write the standard dummy response).

For the most part if you are in the NBA you are making a sh*tload of money compared to the average person, so you shouldn't feel "bad" for them. Then again most people aren't trying to succeed at the highest level of anything, nor have they put in nearly as much time at honing their craft as these players have.

I think those that have worked at doing difficult things can at least appreciate the effort and drive it takes to succeed at that sort of level. Even if they themselves haven't done it in the same realm, so maybe a little empathy is warranted?

Unless you have a crystal ball, you're in the same boat as the rest of us, you don't know sh*t about what the future holds. I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt and try to stay positive... because ultimately none of this matters at all.

I also don't happen to feel intellectually superior because I can sh*t on people in their early 20's trying to achieve things while sitting in the safety of my home.

[urinesane]

Hey Zeitgeister seems to love stats...

How about posts to And 1 ratio? Since it's something you actually have a hand in...

[walk with me]

There's a few realities that I'm looking at regarding Andrew Wiggins in addition to the recent extension talks.

1. He's played out of position for most of his career
The more and more I think about the addition of jimmy butler, I continue to come up with ways that this will benefit Wiggins. At the end of the day I just don't see him as a 3. Not physically and not with his playing style. I think putting him at the 2 will benefit him on both sides. Allowing him to guard people that are similar to him physically while being able to take advantage of these guys on the opposite end with his athleticism and scoring ability.

2. Is he really that bad of a defender?
We're in a weird era where everyone gets called a bad defender, I've heard people try to make analytical arguments suggesting Kawhi is over rated on defense. If people are saying Kawhi is bad on defense then who is good? Again moving Wiggins to the 2 position I think will allow him to flourish on defense. No more guarding Lebron, Kawhi, kd etc etc.

3. has he ever really had expectations?
Sounds like something silly and trivial but realistically the wolves since he's been around have had 0 expectations. Good or bad. This year anything below a 4-6 seed is kind of disappointing imo and he's going to have to work to make sure he doesn't disappoint. The winning culture along with playing with some winners hopefully lights some fire under his ass.


All in all the extension is kind of risky given we aren't sure what the team is buying into with Wiggins but all the numbers both for Andrew and historical suggest the extension is an absolute must.

[big3_8_19_21]

I really expect significant growth this year. Butler of course makes it easier in him in the games, but hopefully makes it much harder on him in practice. This is the first time in his career that Wiggins will clearly be the second best wing on his own team. He's going to see what Jimmy does every day to make himself a superstar.

Plus regardless of that he's been clearly improving his jumpshot through out his career. I'm really hoping for closer to 38% on 3's with a higher attempt rate.

[Zeitgeister]

I have plenty of times. Not wasting anymore time on people who are self proclaimed "intellectuals" on the internet.

Don't twist my own words with those who side with you on the argument. It is urinesane and many others like him who claim those who use statistics "don't actually do anything physically difficult" or "don't watch the games" and they reject statistics outright because they contradict their opinions. It's an anti-intellectual approach, there's really no two ways about it especially when they (and now you)are not actually providing a substantive argument that doesn't use statistical evidence. I gave you a chance to explain your argument but instead you copped out while pretending to be morally superior.

Asks someone to not twist their own words then immediately twists someone else's words...

My point isn't that stats mean nothing, but rather that context does mean something (which you have shown ZERO ability to use). If you think someone at 21-22 years old is who they have always been (and will be), because they haven't improved enough statistically for your liking since they were 19 years old, you're not an intellectual in any sense of the word.

My question about whether or not anyone has done physically difficult things, is because we are sitting here judging people in their early 20's trying to do something very difficult physically AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN THE WORLD. I think you need to take a moment and understand that before you play computer chair GM.

The average age in the NBA is 26.5 years old. If you were 21 and had to compete against the best 26 year olds in the world, how would you fair? Now extend that to people in their late 20's and early 30's. Yeah... it wouldn't be pretty.

BUT THEY GET PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS! WHY SHOULD I FEEL BAD? (I just figured I'd write the standard dummy response).

For the most part if you are in the NBA you are making a sh*tload of money compared to the average person, so you shouldn't feel "bad" for them. Then again most people aren't trying to succeed at the highest level of anything, nor have they put in nearly as much time at honing their craft as these players have.

I think those that have worked at doing difficult things can at least appreciate the effort and drive it takes to succeed at that sort of level. Even if they themselves haven't done it in the same realm, so maybe a little empathy is warranted?

Unless you have a crystal ball, you're in the same boat as the rest of us, you don't know sh*t about what the future holds. I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt and try to stay positive... because ultimately none of this matters at all.

I also don't happen to feel intellectually superior because I can sh*t on people in their early 20's trying to achieve things while sitting in the safety of my home.

You write in a very emotional and condescending way that tries to skirt around the moderation on this site. I'm not really interested in carrying on a conversation with you if you're going to get personal. You honestly don't know a thing about me as a person so stop assuming that you do.

Wiggins is an elite athlete, far ahead of most of those 26 year olds you're talking about, Wiggins is not so disadvantaged, let's get real. The simple fact is he doesn't utilize those elite athletic tools in any way that he should beyond isolation scoring. You don't need a crystal ball to make reasonable predictions off of nearly 9000 minutes of evidence.

Stop posting on the internet if you're going to get so emotional when someone criticizes the play of your favorite player.

[urinesane]

I think you need to stop projecting sir, as you appear to be the only emotional one here.

I didn't write that entire post to you, it was also a general post on my thoughts of this entire thing, where we feel justified in crapping on people that are trying to do difficult things from the safety of our internet connection. Maybe there's value to not sh*tting on people and their potential just because they haven't hit some sort of metric you deem worthy of your praise.

Just like me, you're just some person talking about other people that they don't know. The difference is that the negativity you spew is aimed at someone who isn't here to defend themselves. Yet, when someone holds a mirror up to your negative nancy-ness, you instantly play victim and threaten to take your ball and go home.

Sir, if you actually knew me, you'd know I have a 5th degree black belt in internet sh*t talk. In my opinion, I was actually pretty damn civil and pleasant for internet standards.

You don't even have to give an example, I'll just ask it again and you can answer simply "yes" or "no", you'll be the only person who genuinely knows if it's the truth or not.

Have you done something at a high level that most people would consider very difficult?

I never said you hadn't, I just hoped that my question would maybe spark some empathy in you if you had. If you have worked extremely hard to be successful at something difficult, you can most likely appreciate it in other people who try to achieve the same, even if it's in another discipline.

If you haven't, that may in fact be a better use of the energy you use here to crap on young millionaires trying to do something a very small % can and will ever do.

You don't have to praise them, but you also don't have to sh*t on them. Ultimately none of our opinions will ever mean anything in regards to these situations, so why not try to be less negative and unlikeable?

I mean if you're going to be wasting your time posting about sports on the internet, why not try to post something that people may actually appreciate you posting?

Spoiler:

P.S. I'm high and bored while waiting for something in the oven.

[Zeitgeister]

Look at all that you wrote and the majority of it is about me or your insecurities about people who disagree with you on your favorite player. This is a Wiggins thread, and that's who I'm here to discuss. If you have a problem with people criticizing your favorite player, put me on your ignore list so that you can live within your own little hive mind, echo chamber and you'll never have to be upset on the internet again.