The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo

[C.lupus]

Well, this is fun.

[LibertyPrime]

Hey, anybody want to talk about Andrew Wiggins in this thread?

There's not enough Wiggins in this thread so far for my tastes, and certainly not nearly enough electric boogaloo.

[KGdaBom]

Look at all that you wrote and the majority of it is about me or your insecurities about people who disagree with you on your favorite player. This is a Wiggins thread, and that's who I'm here to discuss. If you have a problem with people criticizing your favorite player, put me on your ignore list so that you can live within your own little hive mind, echo chamber and you'll never have to be upset on the internet again.

I have given up on responding to Air P regarding Wiggins. I will take one more stab at it with you. People have given you the reasons to expect improvement again and again and again. You just continue to choose to ignore them. You have your mind made up and don't care to give any credit to the copious amount of reasoning given to be favorable towards Wiggins. You have annoyed people continuously and just like to keep posting the same old worn out lines that you have been using again and again. I'm not saying your arguments have no validity, but they aren't the be all end all of the discussion.

[urinesane]

Look at all that you wrote and the majority of it is about me or your insecurities about people who disagree with you on your favorite player. This is a Wiggins thread, and that's who I'm here to discuss. If you have a problem with people criticizing your favorite player, put me on your ignore list so that you can live within your own little hive mind, echo chamber and you'll never have to be upset on the internet again.

You are projecting again. The person who is most insecure about their opinion being disagreed with is you.

You've clearly shown why there couldn't be any other logical conclusion other than the one you've given, so I understand why other people not agreeing with you may make you upset.

When did I ever say anything about Wiggins being my favorite player? Oh wait, that's you projecting again!

[urinesane]

Hey, anybody want to talk about Andrew Wiggins in this thread?

There's not enough Wiggins in this thread so far for my tastes, and certainly not nearly enough electric boogaloo.

You speak the truth, my apologies.







I saw my friend's dog doing this move the other day...


Guess he had dance fever (or worms).

[Klomp]

The frustrating thing about these stupid Wiggins debates is his skeptics seem to think he should be at the level of LeBron or Durant already when that's just not his game. And just because he's not at the level of those guys doesn't mean he's a below-average player or even that he shouldn't get the max. Just because he's not the best player on this team doesn't mean he shouldn't get the max.

And people talk about him being the second or third best player on the team like it's a bad thing. Umm....do we want to compete in the playoffs or not? If so, you have to put together a collection of talented players. If Wiggins is your third-best player, it means your top two players are pretty, pretty good. Again, that's not a bad thing.

[King Malta]

Don't twist my own words with those who side with you on the argument. It is urinesane and many others like him who claim those who use statistics "don't actually do anything physically difficult" or "don't watch the games" and they reject statistics outright because they contradict their opinions. It's an anti-intellectual approach, there's really no two ways about it especially when they (and now you)are not actually providing a substantive argument that doesn't use statistical evidence. I gave you a chance to explain your argument but instead you copped out while pretending to be morally superior.

Asks someone to not twist their own words then immediately twists someone else's words...

My point isn't that stats mean nothing, but rather that context does mean something (which you have shown ZERO ability to use). If you think someone at 21-22 years old is who they have always been (and will be), because they haven't improved enough statistically for your liking since they were 19 years old, you're not an intellectual in any sense of the word.

My question about whether or not anyone has done physically difficult things, is because we are sitting here judging people in their early 20's trying to do something very difficult physically AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL IN THE WORLD. I think you need to take a moment and understand that before you play computer chair GM.

The average age in the NBA is 26.5 years old. If you were 21 and had to compete against the best 26 year olds in the world, how would you fair? Now extend that to people in their late 20's and early 30's. Yeah... it wouldn't be pretty.

BUT THEY GET PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS! WHY SHOULD I FEEL BAD? (I just figured I'd write the standard dummy response).

For the most part if you are in the NBA you are making a sh*tload of money compared to the average person, so you shouldn't feel "bad" for them. Then again most people aren't trying to succeed at the highest level of anything, nor have they put in nearly as much time at honing their craft as these players have.

I think those that have worked at doing difficult things can at least appreciate the effort and drive it takes to succeed at that sort of level. Even if they themselves haven't done it in the same realm, so maybe a little empathy is warranted?

Unless you have a crystal ball, you're in the same boat as the rest of us, you don't know sh*t about what the future holds. I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt and try to stay positive... because ultimately none of this matters at all.

I also don't happen to feel intellectually superior because I can sh*t on people in their early 20's trying to achieve things while sitting in the safety of my home.

You write in a very emotional and condescending way that tries to skirt around the moderation on this site. I'm not really interested in carrying on a conversation with you if you're going to get personal. You honestly don't know a thing about me as a person so stop assuming that you do.

Wiggins is an elite athlete, far ahead of most of those 26 year olds you're talking about, Wiggins is not so disadvantaged, let's get real. The simple fact is he doesn't utilize those elite athletic tools in any way that he should beyond isolation scoring. You don't need a crystal ball to make reasonable predictions off of nearly 9000 minutes of evidence.

Stop posting on the internet if you're going to get so emotional when someone criticizes the play of your favorite player.

Haha, Jesus Christ. You can't refer to people who disagree with your point as anti-intellectual then get all pissy about return fire getting personal, you opened that door.

As Urinesane stated, seems to me the most insecure one about their opinions being disagreed with here is you.

[Zeitgeister]

Look at all that you wrote and the majority of it is about me or your insecurities about people who disagree with you on your favorite player. This is a Wiggins thread, and that's who I'm here to discuss. If you have a problem with people criticizing your favorite player, put me on your ignore list so that you can live within your own little hive mind, echo chamber and you'll never have to be upset on the internet again.

I have given up on responding to Air P regarding Wiggins. I will take one more stab at it with you. People have given you the reasons to expect improvement again and again and again. You just continue to choose to ignore them. You have your mind made up and don't care to give any credit to the copious amount of reasoning given to be favorable towards Wiggins. You have annoyed people continuously and just like to keep posting the same old worn out lines that you have been using again and again. I'm not saying your arguments have no validity, but they aren't the be all end all of the discussion.

Okay...Air P has been quite reasonable in his posts from what I've read so I'm not sure why you've given up.

The only reasons I've seen people give is that Wiggins is young, or that he's playing SG next to Butler now. I'm not disputing that Wiggins will show some improvement over the course of his career. I guess I'm disputing the star trajectory that people have for him, I will sometimes see that some people even project that he'll be better than Towns and a superstar. So when I look at Wiggins elite athletic tools and his inability to use them in a way other than iso scoring I see a guy that is either lazy or doesn't have a good feel for the game, he doesn't understand how to use them. If Wiggins has a low basketball IQ, that will be a very difficult stumbling block. If he's lazy, I'm not sure that will change either because I think people are generally who they are, it's pretty rare for people to change who they are.

As a SG, I do think Wiggins will be a bit better defensively, I'd be surprised if he's no longer a negative defender though since the biggest issue he's had is his inability to make plays off of his primary defensive assignment, which again potentially speaks to either laziness or lack of BBIQ. He should have the worse wing defender on him though which will make things a bit easier offensively. His rebounding won't be quite as bad at SG given that SG's aren't expected to grab as many.

Haha, Jesus Christ. You can't refer to people who disagree with your point as anti-intellectual then get all pissy about return fire getting personal, you opened that door.

As Urinesane stated, seems to me the most insecure one about their opinions being disagreed with here is you.

I didn't open the door, the OP opened the door. People who trash statistics are taking an anti-intellectual approach, that's just a fact. Particularly when they aren't providing a substantive argument otherwise. About the only thing superior to watching the games + using statistics is analyzing plays by watching recordings and breaking down exactly what's happening by focusing on a particular player, a very close analysis of video tape. Even then, that only tells you information about the individual game you watched, very difficult to do that with all players, all teams, for every game. There's simply FAR too many moving parts on any given play to provide a substantive argument based on watching whomever has the ball at any given time while ignoring most statistical information.

[Klomp]

The only reasons I've seen people give is that Wiggins is young, or that he's playing SG next to Butler now. I'm not disputing that Wiggins will show some improvement over the course of his career. I guess I'm disputing the star trajectory that people have for him, I will sometimes see that some people even project that he'll be better than Towns and a superstar. So when I look at Wiggins elite athletic tools and his inability to use them in a way other than iso scoring I see a guy that is either lazy or doesn't have a good feel for the game, he doesn't understand how to use them. If Wiggins has a low basketball IQ, that will be a very difficult stumbling block. If he's lazy, I'm not sure that will change either because I think people are generally who they are, it's pretty rare for people to change who they are.

I'm not sure anyone has stated Wiggins is a stone cold lead pipe lock to be a superstar, but rather that he has the potential to do that.

[Loyal[]Wolf]

Hey, anybody want to talk about Andrew Wiggins in this thread?

There's not enough Wiggins in this thread so far for my tastes, and certainly not nearly enough electric boogaloo.

Lmao.

[KGdaBom]

The frustrating thing about these stupid Wiggins debates is his skeptics seem to think he should be at the level of LeBron or Durant already when that's just not his game. And just because he's not at the level of those guys doesn't mean he's a below-average player or even that he shouldn't get the max. Just because he's not the best player on this team doesn't mean he shouldn't get the max.

And people talk about him being the second or third best player on the team like it's a bad thing. Umm....do we want to compete in the playoffs or not? If so, you have to put together a collection of talented players. If Wiggins is your third-best player, it means your top two players are pretty, pretty good. Again, that's not a bad thing.

Very well stated Klomp. Someone who shall not be named keeps acting like if Wiggins is the third option we can't pay him max. I think that if he is a max worthy player we pay him max regardless of not being a top two option. I'd be happy with as good as the fourth option on the Warriors and yes I know he isn't yet, but I think it could definitely happen.

[KGdaBom]

The only reasons I've seen people give is that Wiggins is young, or that he's playing SG next to Butler now. I'm not disputing that Wiggins will show some improvement over the course of his career. I guess I'm disputing the star trajectory that people have for him, I will sometimes see that some people even project that he'll be better than Towns and a superstar. So when I look at Wiggins elite athletic tools and his inability to use them in a way other than iso scoring I see a guy that is either lazy or doesn't have a good feel for the game, he doesn't understand how to use them. If Wiggins has a low basketball IQ, that will be a very difficult stumbling block. If he's lazy, I'm not sure that will change either because I think people are generally who they are, it's pretty rare for people to change who they are.

I'm not sure anyone has stated Wiggins is a stone cold lead pipe lock to be a superstar, but rather that he has the potential to do that.

I will go on record that there is maybe a 1% chance of Wiggins ever being better than Towns. Towns's numbers for his first two seasons have him up with the legends of the game. He could be a top ten player of all time and possibly better. How many Max players are there in the NBA? Wiggins just needs to be a top 50-60 player in the league to be worthy of a max contract. Not a top 50-60 player all time not even a top 50-60 player this year. Just a top 50-60 player in the league over the next six years. Hopefully he can be even better than that.

[AirP.]

Hey, anybody want to talk about Andrew Wiggins in this thread?

There's not enough Wiggins in this thread so far for my tastes, and certainly not nearly enough electric boogaloo.

Yes, let's.

1. What's the expectations in stats and defense for Wiggins next year?
2. What's the expectations in stats and defense for Wiggins in his best year?
3. What age will Wiggins make the all-star team and how many all-star teams will he make in his career?
4. How many all-nba teams will Wiggins make in his career?
5. Are you happy with his development going into season 4, age 22 knowing he's been given every opportunity to succeed?

Keep in mind, we're talking about a highly athletic 22 year old player having nearly 9000 NBA minutes and who took the 2nd most FGA last year in the nba. He should be acclimated to the NBA in that amount of time and who has had 3 years of professional development on his body and his game.

I will say this, it will be exciting to see Butler being doubled team and see Wiggins cut to the basket and get a nice big athletic dunk. It should be a little like Butler and Wade were last year although Wiggins is more athletic then Wade at this point.

[AirP.]

I will go on record that there is maybe a 1% chance of Wiggins ever being better than Towns. Towns's numbers for his first two seasons have him up with the legends of the game. He could be a top ten player of all time and possibly better. How many Max players are there in the NBA? Wiggins just needs to be a top 50-60 player in the league to be worthy of a max contract. Not a top 50-60 player all time just a top 50-60 player in the league right now.

Spending the max on a top 50-60 player when you possibly have 2 top 15 players(possibly 2 top 12) on your roster will be a hindrance with the salary cap to win a championship. Washington limited their potential greatly giving Otto Porter the max this summer which comes into play next season. Although Wiggins' potential is higher, Porter currently is the much better fit on his team as a roleplayer with 2 max players already on the roster so I'm kinda split on who I'd rather have on that kind of contract. If Wiggins becomes a superstar of course him, but I personally don't think that's going to happen especially with Towns, Butler and Teague on the roster which could "hold him back" for a few years even if he could reach his "potential".

[Slim Tubby]

I will go on record that there is maybe a 1% chance of Wiggins ever being better than Towns. Towns's numbers for his first two seasons have him up with the legends of the game. He could be a top ten player of all time and possibly better. How many Max players are there in the NBA? Wiggins just needs to be a top 50-60 player in the league to be worthy of a max contract. Not a top 50-60 player all time just a top 50-60 player in the league right now.

Spending the max on a top 50-60 player when you possibly have 2 top 15 players(possibly 2 top 12) on your roster will be a hindrance with the salary cap to win a championship. Washington limited their potential greatly giving Otto Porter the max this summer which comes into play next season. Although Wiggins' potential is higher, Porter currently is the much better fit on his team as a roleplayer with 2 max players already on the roster so I'm kinda split on who I'd rather have on that kind of contract. If Wiggins becomes a superstar of course him, but I personally don't think that's going to happen especially with Towns, Butler and Teague on the roster which could "hold him back" for a few years even if he could reach his "potential".

You statistical nerds need to put down your spreadsheets, go outside and experience life for what it is...an adventure with no certainties of the future predetermined by the past.

Will Wiggy ever be a complete player? An All Star? I sure as hell don't know and stop pretending that any of you naysayers do either.

His first 3 years, Wiggy was asked to score...we needed him to score. Anyone that has ever played organized hoops knows that if you put that much energy into one side of the ball it will have a negative effect on the other side, especially when you're still maturing physically.

Adding Butler, Teague and Crawford along with KAT should enable Wiggy to focus less on offense and more on defense, rebounding and playmaking. Will it happen? I have no idea but I'm not going to sit back and allow some stats geeks to tell me it isn't possible for a 22 year old to still improve. Yes...this post is directed right at you, Statgeister.

Veering towards negative name calling here. Just make sure you keep your arguments clean/devoid of personal attacks. -Calinks

[minimus]

Otto Porter contract is completely different story, it is a poison pill from Brooklyn. Otto had a career year, he shot very well, but not enough to make a big impact. Also I highly doubt that he will reproduce these percentages next year. Wiggins is a different story, he doesn't have any concerns that won't allow him to be a better player. Moreover his potential is still very high, because we all know that he has been too young for a huge workload he has been given. So we compare Otto Porter who probably had his best year and got the max deal with Wiggins who more likely will improve significantly in next years.

[Crazy-Canuck]

It's like a broken record player whenever people talk about Wiggins.

He's either a young kid with the potential to become a good player or he's we know what he is and he can't improve.

[AirP.]

You statistical nerds need to put down your spreadsheets, go outside and experience life for what it is...an adventure with no certainties of the future predetermined by the past.

Statistical nerds? You do get you don't have to be a nerd to utilize or even understand statistics. Thanks for the personal attack even though you have zero idea of me outside these messageboards.

Will Wiggy ever be a complete player? An All Star? I sure as hell don't know and stop pretending that any of you naysayers do either.

Never said he would or wouldn't, I just mentioned I thought the likely hood is very low, especially with the teammates he has on his team and that he's a lesser version of Jimmy Butler at this point in his career.

His first 3 years, Wiggy was asked to score...we needed him to score. Anyone that has ever played organized hoops knows that if you put that much energy into one side of the ball it will have a negative effect on the other side, especially when you're still maturing physically.

Wait... this is something new, it's never happened in the NBA before? I watched Derrick Rose shoulder a whole offense and play "some" defense to lead his team to 61 games, that was his first year of Thibs although his 3rd season in the league but there was a massive difference in his defense. Wiggins got Thibs as his coach the 3rd year and still wasn't good defensively. Wiggins situation isn't unique, you should really look around in the league to see that.

Adding Butler, Teague and Crawford along with KAT should enable Wiggy to focus less on offense and more on defense, rebounding and playmaking. Will it happen? I have no idea but I'm not going to sit back and allow some stats geeks to tell me it isn't possible for a 22 year old to still improve. Yes...this post is directed right at you, Statgeister.

Once again, thanks for a personal attack. Nobody said he couldn't improve, but he's been given opportunities and he should have already shown grown in something other then shooting the basketball.

[Slim Tubby]

You statistical nerds need to put down your spreadsheets, go outside and experience life for what it is...an adventure with no certainties of the future predetermined by the past.

Statistical nerds? You do get you don't have to be a nerd to utilize or even understand statistics. Thanks for the personal attack even though you have zero idea of me outside these messageboards.

Will Wiggy ever be a complete player? An All Star? I sure as hell don't know and stop pretending that any of you naysayers do either.

Never said he would or wouldn't, I just mentioned I thought the likely hood is very low, especially with the teammates he has on his team and that he's a lesser version of Jimmy Butler at this point in his career.

His first 3 years, Wiggy was asked to score...we needed him to score. Anyone that has ever played organized hoops knows that if you put that much energy into one side of the ball it will have a negative effect on the other side, especially when you're still maturing physically.

Wait... this is something new, it's never happened in the NBA before? I watched Derrick Rose shoulder a whole offense and play "some" defense to lead his team to 61 games, that was his first year of Thibs although his 3rd season in the league but there was a massive difference in his defense. Wiggins got Thibs as his coach the 3rd year and still wasn't good defensively. Wiggins situation isn't unique, you should really look around in the league to see that.

Adding Butler, Teague and Crawford along with KAT should enable Wiggy to focus less on offense and more on defense, rebounding and playmaking. Will it happen? I have no idea but I'm not going to sit back and allow some stats geeks to tell me it isn't possible for a 22 year old to still improve. Yes...this post is directed right at you, Statgeister.

Once again, thanks for a personal attack. Nobody said he couldn't improve, but he's been given opportunities and he should have already shown grown in something other then shooting the basketball.

Wasn't directed at you, Air. You don't belittle others with your posts with a smug, arrogant, "know it all" approach like a certain other poster.

[Pass_the_rock]

The new scapegoat. He's ready.