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The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo

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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#561 » by titantron91 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:41 am

Wiggins is just better off in another team. Waiting for him to settle for being the consistent 3rd option runs the short term plans.
We might as well trade him off to another team for a high-level off-ball 3&D wing and a draft pick.

Which team do you think would use Wiggins the best way possible?
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#562 » by Klomp » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:20 am

titantron91 wrote:Waiting for him to settle for being the consistent 3rd option runs the short term plans.

It does? Last I checked we're one of the four top teams in the West. Did people seriously expect us to dethrone Golden State and Houston in Year 1?
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#563 » by Streakers33 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:40 pm

Klomp wrote:
titantron91 wrote:Waiting for him to settle for being the consistent 3rd option runs the short term plans.

It does? Last I checked we're one of the four top teams in the West. Did people seriously expect us to dethrone Golden State and Houston in Year 1?



Ty klomp... as I caught up in this thread, that’s all I could think about.. relax people.. let’s see play off Wiggins before we get to crazy...


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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#564 » by _AIJ_ » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:53 pm

Id just wish hed become Harrison Barnes from the Warriors 1st championship. Complementary player who plays both ends of the court. He just doesnt have IT


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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#565 » by SmokeyK » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:06 pm

Klomp wrote:
titantron91 wrote:Waiting for him to settle for being the consistent 3rd option runs the short term plans.

It does? Last I checked we're one of the four top teams in the West. Did people seriously expect us to dethrone Golden State and Houston in Year 1?

Wish they’d change playoff format top in division and 4th team play in their conference the other 8 play teams based on win/loss.


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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#566 » by Mech Engineer » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:47 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
wildvikeswolves wrote:
Calinks wrote:Crazy to think it but Dunn may wind up better than Wiggins when its all said and done.


Sad thought but true. All 3 guys we sent in the deal may end up being better.

By no means am I here to say I told you (global you) so re: LaVine vs. Wiggins, way too easy now to rub salt in the very fresh wound. But I do think its interesting to conjure fact Wolves could have set themselves up for dynasty if they would have went with Wiggins + Dunn to Bulls -- keeping LaVine and #7.

With #7 they draft DSJ or Frank. Can't imagine Markkanen would have been in consideration.

They would have signed a stop-gap SF or SG until LaVine ready for return -- easy enough.

Irving: since he became available after Teague signing, is Thibs quicker to pull the trigger on LaVine + DSJ or Frank + Cap Space (maybe adding OKC 1st)? Who knows. Lets assume no.

So we are left with lineup of Teague-LaVine/Temp-Butler-Gibson-Towns.

But Wolves have recent #7 (DSJ or Frank) learning on the bench with assets of 2018 OKC 1st + Own Future 1sts ready and waiting. Screams 2018 trade deadline or 2018 draft day consolidation trade -- adding in Aldrich NG for big upgrade at PF. Or Teague himself consolidated to substantial PG upgrade.


Lavine and DSJ/Frank are not ready to contribute this year to a winning team. And, Lavine might not be ready to contribute even next year to a 50+ win team and DSJ/Frank will definitely not be ready. Look at this way. All those guys need the ball to be effective and that's why Wiggins is struggling. You are just exchanging players who also need the ball. If Lavine was Klay Thompson, yes, he might be effective. He is not even a poor version of Klay on the defensive end and he is not Klay in terms of catch/shoot.

And, not to mention, he is being let to do whatever he wants on a tanking team which wouldn't be the case with the Wolves.

And, DSJ/Frank would not develop because they need a lot of minutes to make mistakes/learn. That means losses for the next 2 years. With those guys, you basically expect Jimmy/KAT to hang around to mentor them.

Players being in the same phase of development is so important. Lavine might have been useful as a bench player for 15 minutes but what's the point there? You can get someone to do that easily.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#567 » by rugbyrugger23 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:37 am

Mech Engineer wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:
wildvikeswolves wrote:
Sad thought but true. All 3 guys we sent in the deal may end up being better.

By no means am I here to say I told you (global you) so re: LaVine vs. Wiggins, way too easy now to rub salt in the very fresh wound. But I do think its interesting to conjure fact Wolves could have set themselves up for dynasty if they would have went with Wiggins + Dunn to Bulls -- keeping LaVine and #7.

With #7 they draft DSJ or Frank. Can't imagine Markkanen would have been in consideration.

They would have signed a stop-gap SF or SG until LaVine ready for return -- easy enough.

Irving: since he became available after Teague signing, is Thibs quicker to pull the trigger on LaVine + DSJ or Frank + Cap Space (maybe adding OKC 1st)? Who knows. Lets assume no.

So we are left with lineup of Teague-LaVine/Temp-Butler-Gibson-Towns.

But Wolves have recent #7 (DSJ or Frank) learning on the bench with assets of 2018 OKC 1st + Own Future 1sts ready and waiting. Screams 2018 trade deadline or 2018 draft day consolidation trade -- adding in Aldrich NG for big upgrade at PF. Or Teague himself consolidated to substantial PG upgrade.


Lavine and DSJ/Frank are not ready to contribute this year to a winning team. And, Lavine might not be ready to contribute even next year to a 50+ win team and DSJ/Frank will definitely not be ready. Look at this way. All those guys need the ball to be effective and that's why Wiggins is struggling. You are just exchanging players who also need the ball. If Lavine was Klay Thompson, yes, he might be effective. He is not even a poor version of Klay on the defensive end and he is not Klay in terms of catch/shoot.

And, not to mention, he is being let to do whatever he wants on a tanking team which wouldn't be the case with the Wolves.

And, DSJ/Frank would not develop because they need a lot of minutes to make mistakes/learn. That means losses for the next 2 years. With those guys, you basically expect Jimmy/KAT to hang around to mentor them.

Players being in the same phase of development is so important. Lavine might have been useful as a bench player for 15 minutes but what's the point there? You can get someone to do that easily.

I really disagree on LaVine catch and shoot -- he was thriving in that role, working hard to make that part of his game, and excelling at shooting. Basically everything Wiggins is not doing. LaVine embraced the role of third fiddle but did so striving to overtake Wiggins as 2nd best Wolves player -- which I think he was on verge of doing prior to injury.

Obvious LaVine wasn't a catch and shoot player coming out of college -- but look at his game now and it's development. He knew with Wolves, playing alongside non shooter Rubio, not a chosen one like Wiggins and Towns (#1 picks given keys to car) he had to develop what roster needed as part of his game and supplement his athletic abilities. One can only imagine how his work ethic, ability to adapt, and develop catch and shoot skills would thrive next to a true proven superstar like Butler. A opportunity Wiggins seems to be squandering so far.

And to your point, I would rather have what DSJ and LaVine deliver to winning ways vs. anything Wiggins has provided Wolves this year or will provide as max player (yuck) moving forward.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#568 » by minimus » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:14 pm

Without that ACL injury LaVine is better offensive player than Wiggins: better hands, better body control, better ball handling, better shooting. Same liability in defense. I wonder if Wiggins + Dunn was enough for Butler. That would leave us with LaVine and #7 pick, which could be DSJ.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#569 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:33 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:By no means am I here to say I told you (global you) so re: LaVine vs. Wiggins, way too easy now to rub salt in the very fresh wound. But I do think its interesting to conjure fact Wolves could have set themselves up for dynasty if they would have went with Wiggins + Dunn to Bulls -- keeping LaVine and #7.

With #7 they draft DSJ or Frank. Can't imagine Markkanen would have been in consideration.

They would have signed a stop-gap SF or SG until LaVine ready for return -- easy enough.

Irving: since he became available after Teague signing, is Thibs quicker to pull the trigger on LaVine + DSJ or Frank + Cap Space (maybe adding OKC 1st)? Who knows. Lets assume no.

So we are left with lineup of Teague-LaVine/Temp-Butler-Gibson-Towns.

But Wolves have recent #7 (DSJ or Frank) learning on the bench with assets of 2018 OKC 1st + Own Future 1sts ready and waiting. Screams 2018 trade deadline or 2018 draft day consolidation trade -- adding in Aldrich NG for big upgrade at PF. Or Teague himself consolidated to substantial PG upgrade.


Lavine and DSJ/Frank are not ready to contribute this year to a winning team. And, Lavine might not be ready to contribute even next year to a 50+ win team and DSJ/Frank will definitely not be ready. Look at this way. All those guys need the ball to be effective and that's why Wiggins is struggling. You are just exchanging players who also need the ball. If Lavine was Klay Thompson, yes, he might be effective. He is not even a poor version of Klay on the defensive end and he is not Klay in terms of catch/shoot.

And, not to mention, he is being let to do whatever he wants on a tanking team which wouldn't be the case with the Wolves.

And, DSJ/Frank would not develop because they need a lot of minutes to make mistakes/learn. That means losses for the next 2 years. With those guys, you basically expect Jimmy/KAT to hang around to mentor them.

Players being in the same phase of development is so important. Lavine might have been useful as a bench player for 15 minutes but what's the point there? You can get someone to do that easily.

I really disagree on LaVine catch and shoot -- he was thriving in that role, working hard to make that part of his game, and excelling at shooting. Basically everything Wiggins is not doing. LaVine embraced the role of third fiddle but did so striving to overtake Wiggins as 2nd best Wolves player -- which I think he was on verge of doing prior to injury.

Obvious LaVine wasn't a catch and shoot player coming out of college -- but look at his game now and it's development. He knew with Wolves, playing alongside non shooter Rubio, not a chosen one like Wiggins and Towns (#1 picks given keys to car) he had to develop what roster needed as part of his game and supplement his athletic abilities. One can only imagine how his work ethic, ability to adapt, and develop catch and shoot skills would thrive next to a true proven superstar like Butler. A opportunity Wiggins seems to be squandering so far.

And to your point, I would rather have what DSJ and LaVine deliver to winning ways vs. anything Wiggins has provided Wolves this year or will provide as max player (yuck) moving forward.


First of all...Lavine doesn't do catch and shoot well at all. He needs the ball and that's why he was on the 2nd team last year and he is doing the same thing on the Bulls. He has a pass here and there but he is not a setup type SG nor is he a catch and shoot guy. That's why many Bulls fans project him as the 6th man. I agree he is a better shooter than Wiggins but then it becomes your turn/my turn offense with him and you basically take away possessions from Jimmy/KAT or other efficient scorers.

And, Lavine would be coming up for a contract too and probably a big salary like Wiggins. There would be no room either way in capspace.

And, DSJ has no idea of how to win. By the time, he can be a PG in a winning offense, you are looking at 3 or 4 years to even get to Teague level. Maybe, he will be a superstar in 5 years but you can't develop a superstar PG without Jimmy getting frustrated.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#570 » by Klomp » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:36 pm

minimus wrote:Without that ACL injury LaVine is better offensive player than Wiggins: better hands, better body control, better ball handling, better shooting. Same liability in defense. I wonder if Wiggins + Dunn was enough for Butler. That would leave us with LaVine and #7 pick, which could be DSJ.

That's the point though. We can't just magically erase the injury. It happened. LaVine missed the first half of the season, and he would've if he was still in Minnesota too.

How many games do we win in those first 44 games without LaVine? 20 maybe? We're talking about a completely different situation of reaching the playoffs if that's the case. You also have someone who's far less likely to ever 'get it' on the defensive end.

And you want to draft Smith, who's probably on Teague's level of bad defense at best?
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#571 » by Streakers33 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:21 pm

And lavine is a future sixth man of the year candidate. Not a starter.. he can come off he bench and score at will.. energize the team with his quick plays.. erase bad play or add to a quick run. And he shakes off misses quickly and forgets he missed.. that’s like a sixth man.. that was the roll he was going to be here and will be with the bulls too. Bummer we lost him.. but we move on


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Re: RE: Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#572 » by minimus » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:33 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:Without that ACL injury LaVine is better offensive player than Wiggins: better hands, better body control, better ball handling, better shooting. Same liability in defense. I wonder if Wiggins + Dunn was enough for Butler. That would leave us with LaVine and #7 pick, which could be DSJ.

That's the point though. We can't just magically erase the injury. It happened. LaVine missed the first half of the season, and he would've if he was still in Minnesota too.

How many games do we win in those first 44 games without LaVine? 20 maybe? We're talking about a completely different situation of reaching the playoffs if that's the case. You also have someone who's far less likely to ever 'get it' on the defensive end.

And you want to draft Smith, who's probably on Teague's level of bad defense at best?

Yes, Wiggins is better defender, thanks to his length. But if we had LaVine instead of Wiggins we could avoid that extension this season and spend less on LaVine extension. And LaVine without any doubt would mesh greatly with Butler. His defense is an issue, but with his contract we could afford another midrange level contract at SG/SF.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#573 » by rugbyrugger23 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:06 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:Without that ACL injury LaVine is better offensive player than Wiggins: better hands, better body control, better ball handling, better shooting. Same liability in defense. I wonder if Wiggins + Dunn was enough for Butler. That would leave us with LaVine and #7 pick, which could be DSJ.

That's the point though. We can't just magically erase the injury. It happened. LaVine missed the first half of the season, and he would've if he was still in Minnesota too.

How many games do we win in those first 44 games without LaVine? 20 maybe? We're talking about a completely different situation of reaching the playoffs if that's the case. You also have someone who's far less likely to ever 'get it' on the defensive end.

And you want to draft Smith, who's probably on Teague's level of bad defense at best?

We will never know -- because of the stop gap SF or SG Wolves would have signed. Sadly, it wouldn't take much to replace what Wiggins has delivered for Wolves this year to leave Wolves in exact same situation (maybe +/- 2-3 wins) but have non-maxed LaVine getting reading to return. And a #7 pick off the bench as a bonus.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#574 » by rugbyrugger23 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:14 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:
rugbyrugger23 wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:
Lavine and DSJ/Frank are not ready to contribute this year to a winning team. And, Lavine might not be ready to contribute even next year to a 50+ win team and DSJ/Frank will definitely not be ready. Look at this way. All those guys need the ball to be effective and that's why Wiggins is struggling. You are just exchanging players who also need the ball. If Lavine was Klay Thompson, yes, he might be effective. He is not even a poor version of Klay on the defensive end and he is not Klay in terms of catch/shoot.

And, not to mention, he is being let to do whatever he wants on a tanking team which wouldn't be the case with the Wolves.

And, DSJ/Frank would not develop because they need a lot of minutes to make mistakes/learn. That means losses for the next 2 years. With those guys, you basically expect Jimmy/KAT to hang around to mentor them.

Players being in the same phase of development is so important. Lavine might have been useful as a bench player for 15 minutes but what's the point there? You can get someone to do that easily.

I really disagree on LaVine catch and shoot -- he was thriving in that role, working hard to make that part of his game, and excelling at shooting. Basically everything Wiggins is not doing. LaVine embraced the role of third fiddle but did so striving to overtake Wiggins as 2nd best Wolves player -- which I think he was on verge of doing prior to injury.

Obvious LaVine wasn't a catch and shoot player coming out of college -- but look at his game now and it's development. He knew with Wolves, playing alongside non shooter Rubio, not a chosen one like Wiggins and Towns (#1 picks given keys to car) he had to develop what roster needed as part of his game and supplement his athletic abilities. One can only imagine how his work ethic, ability to adapt, and develop catch and shoot skills would thrive next to a true proven superstar like Butler. A opportunity Wiggins seems to be squandering so far.

And to your point, I would rather have what DSJ and LaVine deliver to winning ways vs. anything Wiggins has provided Wolves this year or will provide as max player (yuck) moving forward.


First of all...Lavine doesn't do catch and shoot well at all. He needs the ball and that's why he was on the 2nd team last year and he is doing the same thing on the Bulls. He has a pass here and there but he is not a setup type SG nor is he a catch and shoot guy. That's why many Bulls fans project him as the 6th man. I agree he is a better shooter than Wiggins but then it becomes your turn/my turn offense with him and you basically take away possessions from Jimmy/KAT or other efficient scorers.

And, Lavine would be coming up for a contract too and probably a big salary like Wiggins. There would be no room either way in capspace.

And, DSJ has no idea of how to win. By the time, he can be a PG in a winning offense, you are looking at 3 or 4 years to even get to Teague level. Maybe, he will be a superstar in 5 years but you can't develop a superstar PG without Jimmy getting frustrated.

How was LaVine on 2nd team last year? Only way you can say that is the way Thibs handled rotations -- one of him or Wiggins had to sub out first and come back to run the 2nd unit. That is a real reach using that as any kind of counter point.

And the only reason he is 2nd unit on Bulls is part of his rehab -- and coming back from injury getting him acclimated to the roster. Again a real reach.

LaVine is a good catch and shoot -- which BTW doesn't mean the player has to solely stand around and wait for others. He could do both create his own and catc-and-shoot, and was improving drastically at both. Wiggins is going the opposite direction (regressing) and not showing any drive to improve like LaVine proved every year.

You really don't think DSJ off the bench would provide anything to winning? Oh yes he would. I never said, nor would he be expected to start. And like I said, fact you are ignoring, trading Wiggins who had more value at the time, leaves more value in the hopper for Wolves to consider a consolidation trade at later point -- maybe even Irving when that was happening. Because I do agree with you, Butler (like LBJ) would be pressuring Thibs to make a win-now acquisition via consolidation trade with DSJ headlining.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#575 » by Mech Engineer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:38 pm

rugbyrugger23 wrote:How was LaVine on 2nd team last year? Only way you can say that is the way Thibs handled rotations -- one of him or Wiggins had to sub out first and come back to run the 2nd unit. That is a real reach using that as any kind of counter point.

And the only reason he is 2nd unit on Bulls is part of his rehab -- and coming back from injury getting him acclimated to the roster. Again a real reach.

LaVine is a good catch and shoot -- which BTW doesn't mean the player has to solely stand around and wait for others. He could do both create his own and catc-and-shoot, and was improving drastically at both. Wiggins is going the opposite direction (regressing) and not showing any drive to improve like LaVine proved every year.

You really don't think DSJ off the bench would provide anything to winning? Oh yes he would. I never said, nor would he be expected to start. And like I said, fact you are ignoring, trading Wiggins who had more value at the time, leaves more value in the hopper for Wolves to consider a consolidation trade at later point -- maybe even Irving when that was happening. Because I do agree with you, Butler (like LBJ) would be pressuring Thibs to make a win-now acquisition via consolidation trade with DSJ headlining.


He is not on the 2nd unit for the Bulls. And, he is not a catch and shoot guy. He likes to get this own shot. He is far from a catch and shoot guy as we can see on the Bulls. The point you are trying to make is Lavine is better than Wiggins for this version of the Wolves. Unfortunately, the reality is both are bad as currently constituted. But, Wiggins doesn't have the injury history.

The point you are missing is Wiggins current role on the Wolves is entirely different than the role Lavine had last year with the Wolves or he currently has on the Bulls. Lavine has never played that role which Wiggins is playing now. And, looking at how he is on the Bulls, he would struggle with the Wiggins role ....which is off-ball role. Lavine has the green light for anything right now on a bad team where a loss is celebrated. Imagine Wiggins in that role...the grass is greener on the other side.

And, if you are pining for a rookie on a bottom 2 team(DSJ), the argument goes on a different tangent. As a Wolves fan, you probably understand better about bad teams/useless stats. The same stats cannot be duplicated on good/winning teams. It is so tempting to like players on bad teams as great fits for winning teams especially ball-needy players. But, haven't you seen enough for the last decade to make reasonable conclusions?

Wiggins might be bad sometimes but he has a very difficult role for somebody so young and used to a different style. As I have said before, Trevor Ariza might fit great instead of Wiggins at a cheaper rate. But, that is missing the point.

The bottom line is...you have already made your conclusion about Wiggins and that's not something I agree with. He is an unfinished product and if you don't give weight to his current role(off-ball), then you are not evaluating fairly.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#576 » by urinesane » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:19 pm

titantron91 wrote:Which team do you think would use Wiggins the best way possible?


Probably the Mavs.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#577 » by Narf » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:17 pm

Mech Engineer wrote:As a Wolves fan, you probably understand better about bad teams/useless stats. The same stats cannot be duplicated on good/winning teams. It is so tempting to like players on bad teams as great fits for winning teams especially ball-needy players.

Oh, my sweet summer child. Welcome to Minnesota. The grass IS greener over there. Until we trade our grass. Then our grass was always greener and why would any idiot trade it for that grass that I totally never said was greener.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#578 » by PharmD » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:21 pm

Lavine got by with a 21 usage last year; Wiggins was 29. To say Lavine 'needed the ball' as much as Wiggins is just crazy talk.
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#579 » by rugbyrugger23 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:19 am

Narf wrote:
Mech Engineer wrote:As a Wolves fan, you probably understand better about bad teams/useless stats. The same stats cannot be duplicated on good/winning teams. It is so tempting to like players on bad teams as great fits for winning teams especially ball-needy players.

Oh, my sweet summer child. Welcome to Minnesota. The grass IS greener over there. Until we trade our grass. Then our grass was always greener and why would any idiot trade it for that grass that I totally never said was greener.

Although for many like myself, who for years have been saying LaVine is better than Wiggins, more driven, showing more improvement, and better fit on Wolves -- there is a solid minority that have stood our ground in the LaVine vs. Wiggins debate (all of us knowing one had to be moved).
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Re: The Andrew Wiggins Thread #2: Electric Boogaloo 

Post#580 » by southern wolf » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:31 am

I know it's a pipe dream, but if we could somehow trade Wiggins for disgruntled Kawhi in the off-season I would lose my ****. Just imagine Kawhi and Jimmy playing together.

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