Synergy between young and old

[beezy]

KAT and Wiggins have been used to being young players on bad teams with little to no veteran help. This has made them both look bad, Wiggins more so than KAT. But remember the first 16 games of the 2015-16 season when KG was fresh and Prince and Andre Miller could contribute. We saw an 8-8 team with a big road win against Atlanta when they were coming off a 62 win season. What if this kind of scenario plays out except to the nth degree? KAT and Wiggins are more experienced and the veterans they have around them now are still prime or close to prime players. After 30 games of learning each others games where the record may not be great what are the chances we just catch fire and rip off a big winning percentage? Is this kind of synergy possible/probable?

[MN7725]

this isn't a young team anymore

Kat, Wig, Tyus, Patton are the only players that have upside

the 2015-6 team was complete opposite

If Wolves win a lot of games its because Butler is the best player since KG left in '04 more than anything else

[beezy]

this isn't a young team anymore

Kat, Wig, Tyus, Patton are the only players that have upside

the 2015-6 team was complete opposite

If Wolves win a lot of games its because Butler is the best player since KG left in '04 more than anything else

That's my point. Not about being young but winning games with the remaining young players and a much better supporting cast.

[skywalker33]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

[Klomp]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

They sacrificed just two pieces of youth. Still have three starters 22 or younger.

[D1SGRUNTL3D]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

Gotta establish a winning culture with a foundation thats so young. If these guys figure out winning early on in their careers opposed the wait and see approach, those guys probably bolt.

Plus we havent seen a playoff game in 13 years. Keeping the youth for next year is probably going to be 14 maybe 15 years.

[skywalker33]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

They sacrificed just two pieces of youth. Still have three starters 22 or younger.

Get KAT and Wiggins, who's the 3rd starter under 22yo ??? Certainly Teague will start over Ulis....

[Klomp]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

They sacrificed just two pieces of youth. Still have three starters 22 or younger.

Get KAT and Wiggins, who's the 3rd starter under 22yo ??? Certainly Teague will start over Ulis....

Whooooops, that should be two starters. Forgot for a second they traded LaVine.

[prefuse73]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

They sacrificed just two pieces of youth. Still have three starters 22 or younger.

Get KAT and Wiggins, who's the 3rd starter under 22yo ??? Certainly Teague will start over Ulis....

Ha! ALOT of youth huh. LaVine, yes, hard to give up. I will give you that one. Dunn, not all that young and not all that talented. Then we had a pick swap for a player who is actually younger and has more upside than the Lauri (who Chicago picked). Not much to give up for Butler in his prime.

As for the GS jab... everyone is in the same boat, however, we now have two contending windows. Butler prime / KAT-Wiggs developing and then KAT-Wiggs prime. This trade is about winning now AND developing Kat and Wiggins (particularly Wiggins) into stars. Part of this is winning games.

[shrink]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

They sacrificed just two pieces of youth. Still have three starters 22 or younger.

True. We traded LaVine, Dunn for Butler. But the #7 for #16 made us no older.

And while Rubio is younger than Teague, we also gained a 2018 OKC protected 1st, so that is arguably getting younger.

However, to address your point, I think the Wolves ARE trying to beat GSW, but in 2019-2020. Butler and Gibson are the perfect mentors, to fix the flaws in the games of Wiggins and Towns. We also focused on two year deals, to pivot if we are not heading for championship contention. We will only have the star talent to compete with the Warriors if Towns and Wiggins develop defensively and get some playoff experience, and the off-season was well designed towards reaching that goal.

[skywalker33]

Interesting that your FO chose to make this a veteran team, sacrificing a LOT of youth when the Warriors are very much in their prime.

They sacrificed just two pieces of youth. Still have three starters 22 or younger.

True. We traded LaVine, Dunn for Butler. But the #7 for #16 made us no older.

And while Rubio is younger than Teague, we also gained a 2018 OKC protected 1st, so that is arguably getting younger.

However, to address your point, I think the Wolves ARE trying to beat GSW, but in 2019-2020. Butler and Gibson are the perfect mentors, to fix the flaws in the games of Wiggins and Towns. We also focused on two year deals, to pivot if we are not heading for championship contention. We will only have the star talent to compete with the Warriors if Towns and Wiggins develop defensively and get some playoff experience, and the off-season was well designed towards reaching that goal.

I concur you guys definitely got over in the Butler deal, never questioned that. I can see that window but it does seem you may have this roster only as I don't see a lot of free agency roster flexibility. While I like Patton, seems like he'll just be a talented back up so your FO better draft well consider where you'll be drafting (it won't be in the top 7 anymore). I do have the same inclination of the mentorship, Gibson seems like such a true professional, although I do have reservations about Butler as there were rumblings in CHI that were ...questionable about his relationships with teammates. It'll most certainly be an entertaining season, I just suspect that the ONE season you're banking on may be a bit short-sighted unless your chemistry comes together quickly.

[Klomp]

I concur you guys definitely got over in the Butler deal, never questioned that. I can see that window but it does seem you may have this roster only as I don't see a lot of free agency roster flexibility.

The limited FA roster flexibility is only for next summer. Summer 2019 could have some wiggle room, depending on what the veterans do. At this moment plus assuming rookie extensions, Wiggins, Towns and Dieng would be the only three assured to be under contract...meaning they could probably create $25-30 million in cap room if necessary.

[Klomp]

As far as the synergy between young and old, I believe we added the perfect vets to go with our two young studs.

It starts with Jimmy. If you're looking for a vet to help Andrew along and for him to emulate, Jimmy is one of the best vets in the league to emulate. He's gotten where he is because of effort and his work ethic, not because of physical ability. That's the type of stuff that can rub off on a young guy like Andrew.

As for Taj, I actually believe he could be the most influential addition to the team, solely based on the enormous need for post defense. We saw how big of an effect KG had on our young guys on defense two years ago. I think Taj will have a similar effect as a mentor, plus having the ability to contribute for longer stretches.

Jeff will be the most scrutinized newcomer just based on who he's following. However, I believe for the things asked of the position, Teague will be an adequate replacement. Jamal is a bit of a wild card, but there was a serious need for bench contributors and Jamal was probably the best available candidate to fill that role.

[AirP.]

As far as the synergy between young and old, I believe we added the perfect vets to go with our two young studs.

It starts with Jimmy. If you're looking for a vet to help Andrew along and for him to emulate, Jimmy is one of the best vets in the league to emulate. He's gotten where he is because of effort and his work ethic, not because of physical ability. That's the type of stuff that can rub off on a young guy like Andrew.

Short term yes, long term no. Minnesota gave up a lot of assets for Jimmy Butler, he probably has 4-5 years of All-NBA play left in him which is great except he basically plays the same position(SG/SF) as Wiggins who should be stepping up into Butler's role at this point in his career(wing playmaker). Something has to give. If Wiggins becomes a better scorer then Butler(doubtful but possible) then Butler could leave via free agency instead of suppressing his talent greatly to be the 3rd option at the 30% max.

It'll be interesting to see how Thibs decides to utilize Butler and Wiggins on the court together.

The other guys, Gibson, Crawford and even Teague probably are older players(Teague's old for a PG) where there's not really a long term problem.

[beezy]

They sacrificed just two pieces of youth. Still have three starters 22 or younger.

Get KAT and Wiggins, who's the 3rd starter under 22yo ??? Certainly Teague will start over Ulis....

Ha! ALOT of youth huh. LaVine, yes, hard to give up. I will give you that one. Dunn, not all that young and not all that talented. Then we had a pick swap for a player who is actually younger and has more upside than the Lauri (who Chicago picked). Not much to give up for Butler in his prime.

As for the GS jab... everyone is in the same boat, however, we now have two contending windows. Butler prime / KAT-Wiggs developing and then KAT-Wiggs prime. This trade is about winning now AND developing Kat and Wiggins (particularly Wiggins) into stars. Part of this is winning games.

YES! YES! YES! The 2 windows concept is valid. Winning now with Butler is key to AW and KAT's development.

[Klomp]

Short term yes, long term no. Minnesota gave up a lot of assets for Jimmy Butler, he probably has 4-5 years of All-NBA play left in him which is great except he basically plays the same position(SG/SF) as Wiggins who should be stepping up into Butler's role at this point in his career(wing playmaker). Something has to give. If Wiggins becomes a better scorer then Butler(doubtful but possible) then Butler could leave via free agency instead of suppressing his talent greatly to be the 3rd option at the 30% max.

I hate this mindset that seems to be so prevalent on this board.

A team is allowed to have multiple playmakers on the perimeter. In fact, I'd argue this is a big part of what separates the good teams from the great teams.

[AirP.]

Short term yes, long term no. Minnesota gave up a lot of assets for Jimmy Butler, he probably has 4-5 years of All-NBA play left in him which is great except he basically plays the same position(SG/SF) as Wiggins who should be stepping up into Butler's role at this point in his career(wing playmaker). Something has to give. If Wiggins becomes a better scorer then Butler(doubtful but possible) then Butler could leave via free agency instead of suppressing his talent greatly to be the 3rd option at the 30% max.

I hate this mindset that seems to be so prevalent on this board.

A team is allowed to have multiple playmakers on the perimeter. In fact, I'd argue this is a big part of what separates the good teams from the great teams.

Well, if they were better 3pt shooters maybe but both of those player's value drops dramatically when the ball isn't in their hands. Chicago fans just watched a similar situation last year with Butler and Wade.

I guess the argument is this would you rather have a higher usage rate with just Wiggins or Butler and try to find a better off ball complement on the wings with them or do you live with taking turns with them as a playmaker on the wing?

If Butler was only going to be around a couple years I'd get it, he'd probably be the higher option this year with Wiggins working on becoming a better defensive player then year 2 the roles reverse but the price that Minnesota paid for Butler, I'd suspect they expect him to be one of their top 2 players for years to come, not the short term like Gibson, Teague and Crawford are.

BTW... how far into the luxury tax do you think Minnesota will go for multiple years to keep max players who basically duplicate skillsets.

[Klomp]

Well, if they were better 3pt shooters maybe but both of those player's value drops dramatically when the ball isn't in their hands. Chicago fans just watched a similar situation last year with Butler and Wade.

I guess the argument is this would you rather have a higher usage rate with just Wiggins or Butler and try to find a better off ball complement on the wings with them or do you live with taking turns with them as a playmaker on the wing?

If Butler was only going to be around a couple years I'd get it, he'd probably be the higher option this year with Wiggins working on becoming a better defensive player then year 2 the roles reverse but the price that Minnesota paid for Butler, I'd suspect they expect him to be one of their top 2 players for years to come, not the short term like Gibson, Teague and Crawford are.

BTW... how far into the luxury tax do you think Minnesota will go for multiple years to keep max players who basically duplicate skillsets.

Butler was still 3rd team all-NBA, so it must not have been too much of a drop off to pair him with Wade.

Again, look at the great teams in the NBA. Pretty much all of them have had multiple playmakers on the wing. I don't think it's a shocker that both the Rockets and Clippers haven't been able to get over the hump in the past 5 years...because both teams relied on one playmaker and "better off ball complements." It doesn't hold up over time because you can shut down an entire team by shutting down one player.

As for the luxury tax and duplicating skillsets at the max, there is a long time before Minnesota has to worry about this. Butler doesn't make the max on his current contract and the team isn't close to the luxury tax. And by the time both Towns' and Wiggins' rookie extensions kick in and Butler is due a new deal, the veteran two year deals of Gibson and possibly Teague will be off the books or possibly at a lower cap number after extension, creating more separation between the team's cap number and the luxury tax. It's really a non-factor at this point.

[AirP.]

Butler was still 3rd team all-NBA, so it must not have been too much of a drop off to pair him with Wade.

Right and Wade only scored 18 a night and they had really no other big scorers on the roster.

Again, look at the great teams in the NBA. Pretty much all of them have had multiple playmakers on the wing. I don't think it's a shocker that both the Rockets and Clippers haven't been able to get over the hump in the past 5 years...because both teams relied on one playmaker and "better off ball complements." It doesn't hold up over time because you can shut down an entire team by shutting down one player.

Sure, Kobe on a bad roster showed us that, the thing is Minnesota had 3 20 ppg scorers last year and couldn't go .500. In fact Minnesota didn't really miss a beat when LaVine went down and had a not very good roleplayer take his place. Yes multiple roleplayers are good to have but at this point right now, Wiggins does everything below average except shoot the ball and he does that at basically the league average efficiency... not good. If he were a more complete player sure, but he's not and it's a huge gamble to think he's had 3 full years to develop.

As for the luxury tax and duplicating skillsets at the max, there is a long time before Minnesota has to worry about this. Butler doesn't make the max on his current contract and the team isn't close to the luxury tax. And by the time both Towns' and Wiggins' rookie extensions kick in and Butler is due a new deal, the veteran two year deals of Gibson and possibly Teague will be off the books or possibly at a lower cap number after extension, creating more separation between the team's cap number and the luxury tax. It's really a non-factor at this point.

2 years isn't a long time(Butler has 2 years and then a player option he'll probably opt out of). Wiggins is on a rookie deal 1 more year, Towns 2, so the summer of 2019 you can expect 3 max contracts if all 3 stays, that's 2 25%+ maxes and near 30%+ max which will be 80% of the cap, toss in Dieng's 16 million, that's probably 85-95 million for 4 players, Patton only will make 3 million so now you're at 88-98 million for 5 players, I'm not sure how much wiggle room there will be to add roleplayers to round out a solid rotation. Hopefully Towns will be a top 10 player by then, Butler a top 15(Towns hopefully surpasses him) and who knows where people will put Wiggins.

I think Butler, Gibson, Teague and even Crawford should help the young players understand how much work they have to put in to become as good as they can be and help implement and run Thib's systems. The next 2 years Minnesota should be a playoff team and possibly a contender, I just wonder if the 3 maxes can still be as good or better when they have to carry even more of the load starting 2019. Until then life should be good for Timberwolves fans.

[minimus]

Last season in Chicago they didn't have any resemblance of offensive system. Basically players reverted to some basics sets, ISO etc. Spacing and chemistry were awful. I wonder how much it affected Butler stats. I think their role players missed many easy, open shots just because there was no confidence, no trust between teammates.