The obligatory fire Thibs thread

[Merc_Porto]

This team needed toughness in the post, Taj delivered it day in and day out. He was a very necessary move and in case you missed it is a big reason why the team won a must win game to get into the playoffs.

Taj helped keep the team from cratering off a cliff when Jimmy was out, he was this team's rock. You always knew what you are going to get out of him, he is the perfect glue guy for this team. He doesn't care about anything but winning basketball games, just brings his lunch pale and hard hat to each game and goes to work. He was worth every single penny.

This team nedded toughness and a bunch of other things more importants IMO. If you need toughness you're not going from Rubio to Teague.

This team needed toughness in the post and needed it desperately. We needed a vet presence like KG provided early in KAT's career and it needed to be somebody like Taj that could still play. It was a perfect signing by Thibs, don't let your Rubio issues cloud your judgement on other things Thibs has done. It isn't a good look.

I have this opinion of Taj singing sinse day 1.
Nothing to do with Rubio.

[FargoWolf]

This team nedded toughness and a bunch of other things more importants IMO. If you need toughness you're not going from Rubio to Teague.

This team needed toughness in the post and needed it desperately. We needed a vet presence like KG provided early in KAT's career and it needed to be somebody like Taj that could still play. It was a perfect signing by Thibs, don't let your Rubio issues cloud your judgement on other things Thibs has done. It isn't a good look.

I have this opinion of Taj singing sinse day 1.
Nothing to do with Rubio.

Well you brought up Rubio out of nowhere, if your opinion is we should have kept Rubio and signed Taj I don't disagree but I'm still not sure how you can say Taj is unnecessary after watching the season unfold. Guys like Taj are what you need to contend.

[walk with me]

I think people are mostly referring to Wiggins

If you go through this thread a lot of people seem disappointed with the overall status of things

[mplsfonz23]

With his talent and contract we expect it next season, so not sure how he can learn effort, but that is what they should tell him to work on in the summer.

You can't "learn" effort, you can just force yourself to do it if it's not a part of who you are. Most NBA players have to give great effort to get to the NBA, Wiggins was gifted and with that may not have learned good work habbits.

For a while Chicago's FO had a pretty good tactic for drafting(less busts), they went looking for gym rats and hard workers to create a team of players who pushed themselves and although they weren't all that talented compared to a lot of teams, they'd compete night in and night out. Minnesota needs some of those types of players, especially on the bench to sometimes push the starters.

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree, you can learn effort. He had a lot of talent, and didn't have to give much effort so he didn't know how. It is harder to mask now 4 years in, but working with Butler, hitting the gym harder than ever, and put down the XBOX and study some film, he can come back with better habits.

Because if what you are saying that you can't learn effort, then Wiggins is a lost cause, and we should stop complaining now.
Learning how to give effort can be taught, some are born with it, and other have to "learn" it. IMO.

[AirP.]

With his talent and contract we expect it next season, so not sure how he can learn effort, but that is what they should tell him to work on in the summer.

You can't "learn" effort, you can just force yourself to do it if it's not a part of who you are. Most NBA players have to give great effort to get to the NBA, Wiggins was gifted and with that may not have learned good work habbits.

For a while Chicago's FO had a pretty good tactic for drafting(less busts), they went looking for gym rats and hard workers to create a team of players who pushed themselves and although they weren't all that talented compared to a lot of teams, they'd compete night in and night out. Minnesota needs some of those types of players, especially on the bench to sometimes push the starters.

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree, you can learn effort. He had a lot of talent, and didn't have to give much effort so he didn't know how. It is harder to mask now 4 years in, but working with Butler, hitting the gym harder than ever, and put down the XBOX and study some film, he can come back with better habits.

Because if what you are saying that you can't learn effort, then Wiggins is a lost cause, and we should stop complaining now.
Learning how to give effort can be taught, some are born with it, and other have to "learn" it. IMO.

WHAT? Just go back and read what you just wrote. The first 2 games early in the season Butler wasn't there and this team got smoked. Butler wasn't here Wiggins first 3 years, he was handed the keys to the franchise and what did he do, he shot a ton and not much else. You'd think people would be a little disgusted at the respect he was giving the fans with his position of being one of the 2 top players on the team.

You develop tendencies and habits early in life, they're really hard to break especially the effort, basically you have it or you don't deep into your teens and very few people change after that with regards to effort.

[mplsfonz23]

You can't "learn" effort, you can just force yourself to do it if it's not a part of who you are. Most NBA players have to give great effort to get to the NBA, Wiggins was gifted and with that may not have learned good work habbits.

For a while Chicago's FO had a pretty good tactic for drafting(less busts), they went looking for gym rats and hard workers to create a team of players who pushed themselves and although they weren't all that talented compared to a lot of teams, they'd compete night in and night out. Minnesota needs some of those types of players, especially on the bench to sometimes push the starters.

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree, you can learn effort. He had a lot of talent, and didn't have to give much effort so he didn't know how. It is harder to mask now 4 years in, but working with Butler, hitting the gym harder than ever, and put down the XBOX and study some film, he can come back with better habits.

Because if what you are saying that you can't learn effort, then Wiggins is a lost cause, and we should stop complaining now.
Learning how to give effort can be taught, some are born with it, and other have to "learn" it. IMO.

WHAT? Just go back and read what you just wrote. The first 2 games early in the season Butler wasn't there and this team got smoked. Butler wasn't here Wiggins first 3 years, he was handed the keys to the franchise and what did he do, he shot a ton and not much else. You'd think people would be a little disgusted at the respect he was giving the fans with his position of being one of the 2 top players on the team.

You develop tendencies and habits early in life, they're really hard to break especially the effort, basically you have it or you don't deep into your teens and very few people change after that with regards to effort.

Again. I disagree.
Some kids start lazy. (Lazy = No effort.) And some kids have it in them. I have seen kids and adults work on effort. It's concentration.
Wiggins seems to not want to play ball IMO. I think he did it to get paid. Hope I'm wrooo, wrong.

Wigs had a comfortable life. Laid back in Canada, video games, practice, and the genes of world class athletes. His potential has carried him this far, we have all seen it on offense. He's always been better than anyone on the team, so maybe he thought it would always be that way. Now he is being challenged now by some of his peers, and I'm not sure if he knows how to handle it. Hopefully, he can take whatever experience he gained THIS year, and apply to next year and understand you NEED to stay ENVOLVED on EVERY PLAY. The last few games, his points dropped, but his D has been above HIS normal.
That shows "effort." IMHO.
If he can continue to do that (every play) AND engage on the offensive end, that would be learning effort.
BUT, he has to put the effort into it.
Either way, we will see. Doubt he's traded.

[Worm Guts]

I don't know if this was mentioned somewhere, but Sam Mitchell was on KFAN yesterday. He seemed to think Wiggins is someone who needs to be talked to calmly or reasoned with and that screaming at him just isn't effective.
I don't necessarily know how we should take that, it's not like effort wasn't an issue with Wiggins while Mitchell was the coach.

[walk with me]

I don't know if this was mentioned somewhere, but Sam Mitchell was on KFAN yesterday. He seemed to think Wiggins is someone who needs to be talked to calmly or reasoned with and that screaming at him just isn't effective.
I don't necessarily know how we should take that, it's not like effort wasn't an issue with Wiggins while Mitchell was the coach.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/andrew-wiggins

Read this ... it’s from 2013

[AirP.]

Again. I disagree.
Some kids start lazy. (Lazy = No effort.) And some kids have it in them. I have seen kids and adults work on effort. It's concentration.
Wiggins seems to not want to play ball IMO. I think he did it to get paid. Hope I'm wrooo, wrong.

Wigs had a comfortable life. Laid back in Canada, video games, practice, and the genes of world class athletes. His potential has carried him this far, we have all seen it on offense. He's always been better than anyone on the team, so maybe he thought it would always be that way. Now he is being challenged now by some of his peers, and I'm not sure if he knows how to handle it. Hopefully, he can take whatever experience he gained THIS year, and apply to next year and understand you NEED to stay ENVOLVED on EVERY PLAY. The last few games, his points dropped, but his D has been above HIS normal.
That shows "effort." IMHO.
If he can continue to do that (every play) AND engage on the offensive end, that would be learning effort.
BUT, he has to put the effort into it.
Either way, we will see. Doubt he's traded.

It's like we're watching completely different games. I find it really hard to be fine with Wiggins' overall effort when it's a do or die game and he's still not giving the effort you'd expect in a game like that. This is just some of the first plays I looked at because I remembered where they happened at during the game. It's incredible how low of a bar people have for Wiggins that his play is acceptable.

Do you remember this one early in the game, out of bounds under their own basket and Wiggins allows his man to run right down the lane for an easy layup from the pass out of bounds.


What is Wiggins looking at? This led to an easy pass for a reverse layup.


Here Wiggins was playing too tight on Chalmers ~35 feet away from the basket, got pic'd and then when others had to help which lead to an alley oop.


Here's Wiggins jogging back and D.Brooks running right by him for a layup.

[AirP.]

I don't know if this was mentioned somewhere, but Sam Mitchell was on KFAN yesterday. He seemed to think Wiggins is someone who needs to be talked to calmly or reasoned with and that screaming at him just isn't effective.
I don't necessarily know how we should take that, it's not like effort wasn't an issue with Wiggins while Mitchell was the coach.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/andrew-wiggins

Read this ... it’s from 2013

Since he wasn't on the Bulls radar back then I didn't follow him too much but what I did keep hearing is that he didn't have a good motor, he didn't have good focus but the sky was the limit for him and only Wiggins could stop himself from reaching his potential. They seem to have been spot on with him and it's really not changed 4 years later.

This is a fire Thibs thread, but my god, Wiggins and his effort/lack of focus basically gives the other team anywhere between 8-20 easy points a night, Towns also gives up some incredibly easy scores also by being out of place. I just find it hard to blame a coach because players aren't trying enough or aren't catching on. Wiggins and Towns are both still lacking in defense and there can be a debate on if that's on the coach also, it's just odd that most players under Thibs end up playing really good defense, even Kyle Korver showed pretty good improvement when he was under Thibs.

[Crazy-Canuck]

I don't know if this was mentioned somewhere, but Sam Mitchell was on KFAN yesterday. He seemed to think Wiggins is someone who needs to be talked to calmly or reasoned with and that screaming at him just isn't effective.
I don't necessarily know how we should take that, it's not like effort wasn't an issue with Wiggins while Mitchell was the coach.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/andrew-wiggins

Read this ... it’s from 2013

Since he wasn't on the Bulls radar back then I didn't follow him too much but what I did keep hearing is that he didn't have a good motor, he didn't have good focus but the sky was the limit for him and only Wiggins could stop himself from reaching his potential. They seem to have been spot on with him and it's really not changed 4 years later.

This is a fire Thibs thread, but my god, Wiggins and his effort/lack of focus basically gives the other team anywhere between 8-20 easy points a night, Towns also gives up some incredibly easy scores also by being out of place. I just find it hard to blame a coach because players aren't trying enough or aren't catching on. Wiggins and Towns are both still lacking in defense and there can be a debate on if that's on the coach also, it's just odd that most players under Thibs end up playing really good defense, even Kyle Korver showed pretty good improvement when he was under Thibs.

look at the defensive centers thibs has had anchoring the defense, then look at Minnesota. dieng and kat have ben among the worst rim protectors in the league while also really poor at positional defense.

you can hide perimeter players, but you cant hide centers. That said, kat has shown that he can defend at a high level and wiggs has as well, so i think some of that is on thibs and kat having communication issues. Jon k mentioned recently that kat and thibs butt heads in practice about defense and kat usually refers back to his kentucky days. So those 2 are definitely not on the same page.

[AirP.]

look at the defensive centers thibs has had anchoring the defense, then look at Minnesota. dieng and kat have ben among the worst rim protectors in the league while also really poor at positional defense.

You're absolutely correct, neither have really gotten better with the positional defense which is vital when you're suppose to be protecting the basket as a big. It's why so many limited offensive centers have had big games getting "garbage" points or point blank shots with no real defense to stop them.

you can hide perimeter players, but you cant hide centers. That said, kat has shown that he can defend at a high level and wiggs has as well, so i think some of that is on thibs and kat having communication issues. Jon k mentioned recently that kat and thibs butt heads in practice about defense and kat usually refers back to his kentucky days. So those 2 are definitely not on the same page.

I'm good with people saying it's part Thibs part but there's enough of a history to say Thibs knows how to teach defense but the players have to be receptive, learn and put in the work to make it second nature to them. Wiggins is just lack of focus and effort, I just see it way too often time after, does he have the ability, absolutely I just don't think he has the drive to be that type of player. Towns I do believe has the drive(although he whines for calls too much) and I see him sometimes knowing he screwed up or see him kind of hesitant because he's unsure of where he's suppose to be, that in my opinion is someone who is trying but just isn't there yet. Between Towns and Wiggins, it's more important for Towns to figure it out then Wiggins for the team's sake but, if Wiggins doesn't "get it" what is he really bringing to the team, unlike Towns he's very inefficient scoring normally takes a lot of shots. Now that the season is over, Wiggins was the least efficient by a good margin of the players in Minnesota's rotation. The offense outside of Wiggins and Crawford was a little better then average to incredible in efficiency.

In my opinion Towns has a good probability of being a positive on the defensive end, Wiggins I don't expect to ever have the constant focus/effort you need from a key player to build a winner around, there is the chance he gets there, i just don't think the chance is all that high.

With Towns and Butler's extensions being available this summer, I hope those 2 and Thibs get together and really talk about the future of the franchise, where they are currently and how they become a true contender. Towns should be highly interested in how Thibs expects to keep adding talent around him with at least 2 max contracts on the roster. Butler needs to hear how they strengthen the roster in the short term, unlike Towns he doesn't have another decade of before he's past his prime.

For me, this is probably the most important offseason since Thibs has landed in Minnesota, do they stay the course(I think that's a bad idea) or do they make their adjustments with the roster.

[wolfen]

I don't know if this was mentioned somewhere, but Sam Mitchell was on KFAN yesterday. He seemed to think Wiggins is someone who needs to be talked to calmly or reasoned with and that screaming at him just isn't effective.
I don't necessarily know how we should take that, it's not like effort wasn't an issue with Wiggins while Mitchell was the coach.

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/andrew-wiggins

Read this ... it’s from 2013

Since he wasn't on the Bulls radar back then I didn't follow him too much but what I did keep hearing is that he didn't have a good motor, he didn't have good focus but the sky was the limit for him and only Wiggins could stop himself from reaching his potential. They seem to have been spot on with him and it's really not changed 4 years later.

This is a fire Thibs thread, but my god, Wiggins and his effort/lack of focus basically gives the other team anywhere between 8-20 easy points a night, Towns also gives up some incredibly easy scores also by being out of place. I just find it hard to blame a coach because players aren't trying enough or aren't catching on. Wiggins and Towns are both still lacking in defense and there can be a debate on if that's on the coach also, it's just odd that most players under Thibs end up playing really good defense, even Kyle Korver showed pretty good improvement when he was under Thibs.

Bumpity...

What are the odds that Glen Taylor has at least SUGGESTED that Thibs change his courtside demeanor? Would that be a preposterous conversation to even have? Do you think that Thibs has even THOUGHT about changing his behavior on the sideline? Again, I come back to the fact that he's the ONLY coach in the league who constantly screams and barks out commands during gameplay and also barks a lot at his players during timeouts. Players today (especially our young ones) just don't respond to that type of coaching and Im thinking it's a big part of the KAT unhappiness. Can you imagine Thibs trying to pull that crap coaching the Cavs, Warriors, or Rockets? He wouldn't last a minute on those teams.

[Klomp]

What are the odds that Glen Taylor has at least SUGGESTED that Thibs change his courtside demeanor?

Very high. I can't find it now, but Krawczynski has reported this has happened, even during the season.

[AirP.]

What are the odds that Glen Taylor has at least SUGGESTED that Thibs change his courtside demeanor? Would that be a preposterous conversation to even have? Do you think that Thibs has even THOUGHT about changing his behavior on the sideline? Again, I come back to the fact that he's the ONLY coach in the league who constantly screams and barks out commands during gameplay and also barks a lot at his players during timeouts. Players today (especially our young ones) just don't respond to that type of coaching and Im thinking it's a big part of the KAT unhappiness. Can you imagine Thibs trying to pull that crap coaching the Cavs, Warriors, or Rockets? He wouldn't last a minute on those teams.

I'm not sure how much unhappiness there is with Towns. We heard that he's probably not exactly happy about his trainer being fired, outside of that there's really nothing about him and Thibs other than Towns jabbing Thibs online about the Eagles(which seems to indicate some type of rapport between Towns and Thibs).

I think a lot of people on these boards would be surprised at how much yelling and cussing coaches do in the NBA, Popovich is known for that which ex-spurs have talked about.

[Folklore]

What are the odds that Glen Taylor has at least SUGGESTED that Thibs change his courtside demeanor? Would that be a preposterous conversation to even have? Do you think that Thibs has even THOUGHT about changing his behavior on the sideline? Again, I come back to the fact that he's the ONLY coach in the league who constantly screams and barks out commands during gameplay and also barks a lot at his players during timeouts. Players today (especially our young ones) just don't respond to that type of coaching and Im thinking it's a big part of the KAT unhappiness. Can you imagine Thibs trying to pull that crap coaching the Cavs, Warriors, or Rockets? He wouldn't last a minute on those teams.

I'm not sure how much unhappiness there is with Towns. We heard that he's probably not exactly happy about his trainer being fired, outside of that there's really nothing about him and Thibs other than Towns jabbing Thibs online about the Eagles(which seems to indicate some type of rapport between Towns and Thibs).

I think a lot of people on these boards would be surprised at how much yelling and cussing coaches do in the NBA, Popovich is known for that which ex-spurs have talked about.

You, are, a Thibs rider lol it's so typical of someone like you to find some type of excuse to justify your masters actions.
The guy is the wrong coach for us....period.

[wolfen]

What are the odds that Glen Taylor has at least SUGGESTED that Thibs change his courtside demeanor?

Very high. I can't find it now, but Krawczynski has reported this has happened, even during the season.

I am glad to hear that, for sure. How weird would it be watching Thibs just sit there like Phil Jackson just watching the game . Not gonna happen, Thibs will never change his vocal ways. What I think he actually might change next year based on feedback from different avenues, is the minutes distribution. I understand out bench was terrible last year but hopefully that will change this summer and Thibs will get his starters more rest during the regular season and use his bench weapons more frequently.

For me there are 4 things that he could change:
1. The "barking"
2. Minutes distribution
3. Offensive philosophy
4. Defensively philosophy

I doubt if he'll ever change 1 and 4, but 2 and 3, you would hope a good, reflective coach would analyze things and make some tweaks...

[AirP.]

I'm not sure how much unhappiness there is with Towns. We heard that he's probably not exactly happy about his trainer being fired, outside of that there's really nothing about him and Thibs other than Towns jabbing Thibs online about the Eagles(which seems to indicate some type of rapport between Towns and Thibs).

I think a lot of people on these boards would be surprised at how much yelling and cussing coaches do in the NBA, Popovich is known for that which ex-spurs have talked about.

You, are, a Thibs rider lol it's so typical of someone like you to find some type of excuse to justify your masters actions.
The guy is the wrong coach for us....period.

Why is he the wrong coach for you, because he's got this team finally winning? People on this board act as if this team has had great success year after year and this was a down year instead of one of the more successful seasons in franchise history with 2 starters age 23 or younger.

Also, was K.Irving a "Thibs rider" since he wanted to play for Thibs last offseason? Just wondering.

[minimus]

Why is he the wrong coach for you, because he's got this team finally winning? People on this board act as if this team has had great success year after year and this was a down year instead of one of the more successful seasons in franchise history with 2 starters age 23 or younger.

Because with this roster we must win more than one year ago. With Thibs or not this is the most talented roster in MIN for ages. Also now our young players are not rookies anymore. We have invest already in Wiggins and soon invest in KAT as well. They will be judged differently. My concern with Thibs is that he might be a not positive factor for players development. Just like Phil Jackson in NYK. Phil was a winner, an experienced coach, but he failed to build anything positive.

Saying this I understand that all recent bad news about Thibs might be speculation in media. I want to see this offseason, draft, summer league FA market moves etc. That is a really big offseason for us and Thibs can really change everything in a good way. And we finally went to playoffs.

[AirP.]

Why is he the wrong coach for you, because he's got this team finally winning? People on this board act as if this team has had great success year after year and this was a down year instead of one of the more successful seasons in franchise history with 2 starters age 23 or younger.

Because with this roster we must win more than one year ago. With Thibs or not this is the most talented roster in MIN for ages. Also now our young players are not rookies anymore. We have invest already in Wiggins and soon invest in KAT as well. They will be judged differently. My concern with Thibs is that he might be a not positive factor for players development. Just like Phil Jackson in NYK. Phil was a winner, an experienced coach, but he failed to build anything positive.

Thibs was the coach when Butler was drafted to when he became an all-star, Mirotic as a rookie came in 2nd in ROY, a young D.Rose won the NBA MVP under Thibs, Towns became an all-star and all-NBA at age 22 under Thibs. I don't get this narrative of not being able to develop young players, he just doesn't normally unleash players till they're ready(although he did his first year in Minnesota but he didn't have really any other option). Players of all ages have had great growth under Thibs yet I keep hearing he's not a positive factor for players development... Your franchise was fine sending LaVine, Dunn and the 7th pick for the 16th pick and a defensive only player drafted LAST in the first round that Thibs coached into becoming an all-star. It's odd to keep seeing this narrative when in fact there is data to show it's simply not true yet for some reason people think it's a valid talking point.

Saying this I understand that all recent bad news about Thibs might be speculation in media. I want to see this offseason, draft, summer league FA market moves etc. That is a really big offseason for us and Thibs can really change everything in a good way. And we finally went to playoffs.

Honestly, no matter how good/bad of a coach Thibs is, the team if nearly the same and has the same or less injuries it SHOULD be better with 1 year of being together already and some of the younger players experiencing the race for the playoffs, recognizing not giving nearly 100% against teams they should have beat throughout the year did came back to bite them.