ImageImageImage

Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario?

Moderators: Domejandro, Worm Guts, Calinks

Saric or Taj as starting PF?

Taj
6
30%
Dario
9
45%
KBD
5
25%
 
Total votes: 20

Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 63,113
And1: 17,569
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#21 » by Klomp » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:54 am

PharmD wrote:
shrink wrote:
PharmD wrote:Neither.

I do find it interesting that the OP refers to Taj's rebounding as a positive when his unimpressive rebounding is one of the things i find most frustrating about him.

Taj Gibson was #11 in the NBA last year in Offensive Rebounds.

His minutes from last year have dropped from 32 MPG to 24, yet his RPG has only dropped from 7.1 to 6.5.

Per game stats being quoted in 2019 itt.

His 12.4 TRB% was definitely not good for a PF that can't shoot, create, or protect the rim.

Most of his minutes were alongside Towns, who is going to gobble up most of the rebounds when he's on the court.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.

Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
theGreatRC
RealGM
Posts: 18,466
And1: 4,881
Joined: Oct 12, 2006
Location: California
 

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#22 » by theGreatRC » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:23 am

wesleyt95 wrote:
MN7725 wrote:Neither

Covington or a similar size player should be PF to have switching lineups as much as possible



I really think he may be a Giannis type


I'd love Hachimura here...mostly for the Wolves & Japan collaboration gear that Japanese people would create :lol:

To answer the thread's question, i'd rather have a young Taj next to KAT, we need a PF that can switch onto the C on defense.

Dario is ok, maybe he's just having a down year, but he's been disappointing.
Dysfunctional Wolves fan
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 63,113
And1: 17,569
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#23 » by Klomp » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:18 am

I actually like the other Gonzaga big Brandon Clarke almost as much as Hachimura. Different type of big from what we have, which I think is important. Most of our PF/Cs are slow-footed. Hachimura seems to trend that way too. Clarke is bouncy. Needs to pack on pounds though.

I'm also really curious about Grant Williams from Tennessee. Just seems like an all-around solid prospect and is young for his class.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.

Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
wesleyt95
Rookie
Posts: 1,158
And1: 277
Joined: Sep 23, 2018
 

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#24 » by wesleyt95 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:25 am

Klomp wrote:I actually like the other Gonzaga big Brandon Clarke almost as much as Hachimura. Different type of big from what we have, which I think is important. Most of our PF/Cs are slow-footed. Hachimura seems to trend that way too. Clarke is bouncy. Needs to pack on pounds though.

I'm also really curious about Grant Williams from Tennessee. Just seems like an all-around solid prospect and is young for his class.


We’ll see how much dirty work Clarke will be able to do in the league, he’s only 6’8 tho and doesn’t stretch the floor
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,506
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#25 » by Jedzz » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:05 am

PharmD wrote:
shrink wrote:
PharmD wrote:Neither.

I do find it interesting that the OP refers to Taj's rebounding as a positive when his unimpressive rebounding is one of the things i find most frustrating about him.

Taj Gibson was #11 in the NBA last year in Offensive Rebounds.

His minutes from last year have dropped from 32 MPG to 24, yet his RPG has only dropped from 7.1 to 6.5.

Per game stats being quoted in 2019 itt.

His 12.4 TRB% was definitely not good for a PF that can't shoot, create, or protect the rim.


What do you mean Taj can't shoot? Taj wasn't himself early this season. I tend to believe he was still fried from the insane load he was taking on last season. His body looked nearly as thin as a hungry Brewer after last season and going into this one. However he came back by midseason getting it done again. He isn't asked to shoot enough because of who he is playing with. But when they need him to and ask him to, he will carry some load. He just did it recently when a few players were out and I think he had over 25 pts that day. Meanwhile Saric went into deep holes of can't shoot anything at times and committing more fouls then he deserved.

Saric .450 FG%, his second best season of it - this year.
Taj, .566 FG%, his second best season of it - this year.

Take your pick on these guys going forward, I'm not going to cry either way. But I won't disrespect what Taj has done here by making up negative points that aren't real. He's been a pro baller here.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 63,113
And1: 17,569
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#26 » by Klomp » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:23 am

Jedzz wrote:
PharmD wrote:
shrink wrote:Taj Gibson was #11 in the NBA last year in Offensive Rebounds.

His minutes from last year have dropped from 32 MPG to 24, yet his RPG has only dropped from 7.1 to 6.5.

Per game stats being quoted in 2019 itt.

His 12.4 TRB% was definitely not good for a PF that can't shoot, create, or protect the rim.


What do you mean Taj can't shoot? Taj wasn't himself early this season. I tend to believe he was still fried from the insane load he was taking on last season. His body looked nearly as thin as a hungry Brewer after last season and going into this one. However he came back by midseason getting it done again. He isn't asked to shoot enough because of who he is playing with. But when they need him to and ask him to, he will carry some load. He just did it recently when a few players were out and I think he had over 25 pts that day. Meanwhile Saric went into deep holes of can't shoot anything at times and committing more fouls then he deserved.

Saric .450 FG%, his second best season of it - this year.
Taj, .566 FG%, his second best season of it - this year.

Take your pick on these guys going forward, I'm not going to cry either way. But I won't disrespect what Taj has done here by making up negative points that aren't real. He's been a pro baller here.

He's talking about Taj's jumper.

Taj takes 45% of his shots from more than 3 feet away from the basket and makes just 42% of those shots.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.

Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,506
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#27 » by Jedzz » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:36 am

Klomp wrote:
Taj takes 45% of his shots from more than 3 feet away from the basket and makes just 42% of those shots.



Just?

Hmm. Let's compare that to all the players on this team that can't sniff .42 from beyond 3 feet away. We even have players that can't reach .42 from within 3 feet.

I'm not sure how anyone can spin the following data, but I see you putting effort into it.

Saric .450 FG%
Taj, .566 FG%
User avatar
PharmD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,953
And1: 5,536
Joined: Aug 21, 2015
 

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#28 » by PharmD » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:09 pm

Jedzz wrote:
Klomp wrote:
Taj takes 45% of his shots from more than 3 feet away from the basket and makes just 42% of those shots.



Just?

Hmm. Let's compare that to all the players on this team that can't sniff .42 from beyond 3 feet away. We even have players that can't reach .42 from within 3 feet.

I'm not sure how anyone can spin the following data, but I see you putting effort into it.

Saric .450 FG%
Taj, .566 FG%

Oh Jeddz. Taj provides ~0 spacing. Not everyone needs to space the floor but it is a very helpful thing to do. Back to my original point, if you're not spacing the floor, protecting the rim, creating for your teammates, or even being an above-average rebounder then you aren't all that helpful to your team (and not worth nearly $14M no matter how 'solid' you are).

Using your criteria: Who is a better shooter?
Gobert: .666 FG%
Durant: .512 FG%
User avatar
PharmD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,953
And1: 5,536
Joined: Aug 21, 2015
 

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#29 » by PharmD » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:11 pm

Klomp wrote:
PharmD wrote:
shrink wrote:Taj Gibson was #11 in the NBA last year in Offensive Rebounds.

His minutes from last year have dropped from 32 MPG to 24, yet his RPG has only dropped from 7.1 to 6.5.

Per game stats being quoted in 2019 itt.

His 12.4 TRB% was definitely not good for a PF that can't shoot, create, or protect the rim.

Most of his minutes were alongside Towns, who is going to gobble up most of the rebounds when he's on the court.

Perhaps. But on the court as a duo they only pull down 50.3% of rebounds. Considering Towns is a dominant rebounder, the 4-5 being only slightly above average suggests that Taj is not a great rebounder.
User avatar
King Malta
Starter
Posts: 2,324
And1: 1,547
Joined: Jun 24, 2013
Location: The Lottery
         

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#30 » by King Malta » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:39 am

Last season's Taj is considerably better than Dario, this season it's a lot closer, but I have to admit I haven't been very impressed with what Dario's brought so far. I agree with whoever suggested the prime partner for KAT is 4 who can stretch the floor and defend, the problem is that there aren't many of those available for the kind of money/trade pieces we posses.

I'd probably prefer we give Dario a full season as the starting 4 and see how he performs with a proper off-season and a new system being implemented during that period.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,506
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#31 » by Jedzz » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:57 pm

PharmD wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Klomp wrote:
Taj takes 45% of his shots from more than 3 feet away from the basket and makes just 42% of those shots.



Just?

Hmm. Let's compare that to all the players on this team that can't sniff .42 from beyond 3 feet away. We even have players that can't reach .42 from within 3 feet.

I'm not sure how anyone can spin the following data, but I see you putting effort into it.

Saric .450 FG%
Taj, .566 FG%

Oh Jeddz. Taj provides ~0 spacing. Not everyone needs to space the floor but it is a very helpful thing to do. Back to my original point, if you're not spacing the floor, protecting the rim, creating for your teammates, or even being an above-average rebounder then you aren't all that helpful to your team (and not worth nearly $14M no matter how 'solid' you are).

Using your criteria: Who is a better shooter?
Gobert: .666 FG%
Durant: .512 FG%


Good example with Gobert vs Durant. At least to prove a player taking shots up close should hit them more. That doesn't mean Gobert is a poor shooter though. To say Taj can't shoot, which is what you posted, now that is what I disagree with. Spacing, now if that's what you originally meant then I get it. Taj doesn't shoot threes much at all. But you would have to check Klomp's numbers where he said Taj shoots 45% of his shots from more than 3 feet away, and those at 42% are just fine if those numbers are correct.

The rebounds. Klomp already mentioned it but when a vet is playing with KAT, they are probably letting KAT get those. Taj knows better. But if you watch Diop or Okogie, these guys are smashing into their own players trying to get those boards. You know, rookies, got to love it.

If you check the March 10th game where Towns was out, Taj gets 8 boards. That's more than say Saric or Diop are hauling in most games. The games before on the 9th and the 3rd both were against Washington and Taj had 13 and 10 rebounds. Those games Taj was playing off the bench. When he had 13 rebounds on March 9th, Diop had 5 and Saric had 6. When he had 10 boards on March 3, Diop had 5 and Saric had 5. Those two each were getting more minutes than Taj and yet he's getting more boards. Karl Towns had 15 and 10 in those games. Taj gets 13 and 10. Why would you claim he's bad at it? Oh yeah, March 10th when Towns and Wiggins were out, Taj got 25 pts as well. The most on the team in a Win. Diop(18 pts, 6 boards) and Saric(11pts and 4 boards). Did you see anyone doing much better with assists, steals, blocks, turnovers that game?

So from your original statement I THINK we can cross out shooting and add spacing, and we could cross out rebounds completely. I also don't know what big on the team is better at assists, steals, blocks, turnovers to replace him. Diop might get there from what he's already shown. Or maybe you are voting to bring someone new in. Saric, now this guy needs to hurry up and step up if he can.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,506
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#32 » by Jedzz » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:10 pm

King Malta wrote:Last season's Taj is considerably better than Dario, this season it's a lot closer, but I have to admit I haven't been very impressed with what Dario's brought so far. I agree with whoever suggested the prime partner for KAT is 4 who can stretch the floor and defend, the problem is that there aren't many of those available for the kind of money/trade pieces we posses.

I'd probably prefer we give Dario a full season as the starting 4 and see how he performs with a proper off-season and a new system being implemented during that period.
That's probably wise, more wise than judging him on this season. However Diop may be pushing for a role like that lately too.
walk with me
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,549
And1: 4,349
Joined: Dec 01, 2013

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#33 » by walk with me » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:53 pm

Taj on limited minutes if you want to compete
Dario if you want to feel good while losing
KBD if you want to blatantly tank
AirP.
RealGM
Posts: 33,251
And1: 28,172
Joined: Nov 21, 2007

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#34 » by AirP. » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:38 am

Gibson is the better PF currently, but Minnesota needs to find/develop their long term PF in the next couple of years.

From BBRef...
Taj is a +11 when you do ORTG - DRTG
Dario is +1

From ESPN... Real +/-
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/6
Gibson +.03
Saric(total) -1.38

To put that in perspective...
Towns +4.2
Covington(total) +2.64
Tyus +1.0
Deng +.66
Teague -.67
Okogie -1.05
Wiggins -1.21 (-1.62 last year)
Rose -1.61
Tolliver -1.66
Dieng -1.87
KBD -3.5
Bayless -5.06

2nd to worse... J.Crawford -6.9 (-5.43 last year)
Worst K.Knox -7.26
User avatar
PharmD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,953
And1: 5,536
Joined: Aug 21, 2015
 

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#35 » by PharmD » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:08 am

This debate kiiiiiind of reminds me of Adreian Payne vs Anthony Bennett. Both guys are much better obviously but the correct answer is still 'neither'
AirP.
RealGM
Posts: 33,251
And1: 28,172
Joined: Nov 21, 2007

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#36 » by AirP. » Tue Apr 2, 2019 12:28 pm

PharmD wrote:This debate kiiiiiind of reminds me of Adreian Payne vs Anthony Bennett. Both guys are much better obviously but the correct answer is still 'neither'


No, it's not neither for this particular franchise, the answer moving forward is Dario but he needs to work on his defense. Dario is 24 and should continue to get somewhat better on both sides of the ball plus, Minnesota doesn't have many options for upgrading/replacing the PF position.

A quick look at his ORTG - DRTG, he's a +1 as of now, he's not a net negative on the court, something that can't be said of most of Minnesota's roster.

Dario's TS% in Minnesota is .578 which is good and also is hitting 39% from 3pt range in that timeframe .
His rebounding and assists rates are ok as a PF.

Dario's issues come from the defensive side of the court and that's something I would stress to him to work on in the summer and the next couple of years.

This franchise needs stability in the worst way although I'd still look to trade Wiggins and move forward with Okogie and Covington as my long term starting wings at this point in time(unless you get lucky in the draft in the next few years).
User avatar
Killboard
Analyst
Posts: 3,374
And1: 943
Joined: Jul 16, 2010

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#37 » by Killboard » Tue Apr 2, 2019 3:04 pm

A. Wiggins, .D. Saric, .T. Jones, .K. Towns, .J. Okogie lineup since Ryan took over is at 105.5 ORTG, 108.9 DRTG, -3.5 Net.

At this poin the problem is the offense with this lineup, because 108.9 would tie with the warriors (whole roster) at 14th in the league.

When you sustract Wiggins of the lineup, which probably will happen more often next season with Roco coming back, the sample is small, but:

.D. Saric, .T. Jones, .K. Towns, .K. Bates-Diop, .J. Okogie 108.3 ORTG, 98.0 DRTG, 10.4 Net. Maybe with Roco we have a shot to be a good defensive team while keeping those guys on the floor.

Saric would be coming back except with can draft someone like Clark and trade Saric for a borderline starting guard (not that I would vouch for it but would be a real posibility). I think draft a guard and keep Saric is a path with more boom (or bust), but have someone like Clark earning 3M per season up to his 26 years old in the 23-24 season could be huge for the cap management and be a good use of the pick.

Taj still being a hard fit because of Dieng, who will be in contract for next season and has shown be a serviceable player as a late. We must take value of his 15M extension at some extent to allow us fix another holes, as should be another wing or another guard in the rotation, specially ones who can defend and shoot the 3.
User avatar
Killboard
Analyst
Posts: 3,374
And1: 943
Joined: Jul 16, 2010

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#38 » by Killboard » Tue Apr 2, 2019 3:17 pm

AirP. wrote:Gibson is the better PF currently, but Minnesota needs to find/develop their long term PF in the next couple of years.

From BBRef...
Taj is a +11 when you do ORTG - DRTG
Dario is +1

From ESPN... Real +/-
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/position/6
Gibson +.03
Saric(total) -1.38

To put that in perspective...
Towns +4.2
Covington(total) +2.64
Tyus +1.0
Deng +.66
Teague -.67
Okogie -1.05
Wiggins -1.21 (-1.62 last year)
Rose -1.61
Tolliver -1.66
Dieng -1.87
KBD -3.5
Bayless -5.06

2nd to worse... J.Crawford -6.9 (-5.43 last year)
Worst K.Knox -7.26



Since BKREF and NBA calculate ORTG differently, I will put the other take here (NBA.com):

Since Ryan took over (since 1/6, no Roco):
KAT, Saric lineups are -0.1 in 579 minutes.
Kat-Gibson lineups are -1.1 in 380 minutes.

If you took the time along Roco (up to 1/6):
.D. Saric, .K. Towns are 6.4 in 300 minutes.
Gibson, Towns lineups are 2.7 in 925 minutes.
AirP.
RealGM
Posts: 33,251
And1: 28,172
Joined: Nov 21, 2007

Re: Now that we've had a chance to see.... Taj or Dario? 

Post#39 » by AirP. » Tue Apr 2, 2019 6:44 pm

Killboard wrote:Since BKREF and NBA calculate ORTG differently, I will put the other take here (NBA.com):

Since Ryan took over (since 1/6, no Roco):
KAT, Saric lineups are -0.1 in 579 minutes.
Kat-Gibson lineups are -1.1 in 380 minutes.

If you took the time along Roco (up to 1/6):
.D. Saric, .K. Towns are 6.4 in 300 minutes.
Gibson, Towns lineups are 2.7 in 925 minutes.


This is a much better representation of the situation since the stats are based on combos(vs just being on the court with 4 other players) and on time frames.

Return to Minnesota Timberwolves