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Klomp wrote:KGdaBom wrote:wesleyt95 wrote:Watch him average 17 a game next year
If he can do that efficiently, play good D, and play within the team concept he would be an excellent 2nd round pick. I stand by my willingness to take a chance on him.
Way to go out on a limb to say you'd take a possible lottery pick in the second round....
KGdaBom wrote:Klomp wrote:KGdaBom wrote:If he can do that efficiently, play good D, and play within the team concept he would be an excellent 2nd round pick. I stand by my willingness to take a chance on him.
Way to go out on a limb to say you'd take a possible lottery pick in the second round....
If he's a lottery pick I'm prepared to mock whoever takes him in the lottery. I don't think anybody would be that stupid, but you never know.
wesleyt95 wrote:KGdaBom wrote:Klomp wrote:Way to go out on a limb to say you'd take a possible lottery pick in the second round....
If he's a lottery pick I'm prepared to mock whoever takes him in the lottery. I don't think anybody would be that stupid, but you never know.
Wtf are you talking about, you're talent evaluation and opinions suck. He has just as much talent as Ja, Barrett and Culver but Ppl would rather just turn a blind eye...
Yup.KGdaBom wrote:wesleyt95 wrote:KGdaBom wrote:If he's a lottery pick I'm prepared to mock whoever takes him in the lottery. I don't think anybody would be that stupid, but you never know.
Wtf are you talking about, you're talent evaluation and opinions suck. He has just as much talent as Ja, Barrett and Culver but Ppl would rather just turn a blind eye...
Everybody has a$$holes and opinions. They all stink. I have my opinion and you have yours. I'm not interested in KPJ in the lottery. Way too many red flags. If you want to gamble pick 11 on him when their will be just as high ceiling players that also have much higher floors than I'm glad you're not in a position of power to select KPJ.
KGdaBom wrote:I'm starting to question if Carsen Edwards would be even a good second round pick. He absolutely offers nothing other than scoring. On the other hand he would be some amazing instant offense off the bench. Here are some details on him I pulled off Tankathon. These are all per 36 minutes.
Carsen Edwards
PG | Purdue
6'0.25"
199 lbs
Junior
21.2 yrs
24.7 pts
3.7 reb
2.9 ast
0.3 blk
1.4 stl
SmokeyPaw wrote:KGdaBom wrote:I'm starting to question if Carsen Edwards would be even a good second round pick. He absolutely offers nothing other than scoring. On the other hand he would be some amazing instant offense off the bench. Here are some details on him I pulled off Tankathon. These are all per 36 minutes.
Carsen Edwards
PG | Purdue
6'0.25"
199 lbs
Junior
21.2 yrs
24.7 pts
3.7 reb
2.9 ast
0.3 blk
1.4 stl
Ben Rubin basically offered a two part answer: if he can hit the deep three like Curry ( some indications he could) he can warp the floor. If he can also improve his passing enough to take advantage of that then he can be a major offensive star.
Ben was asked what the odds were and he spitballed 1 in 10. May seem low, but really how many prosoects can meet that type of upside.
An interesting question is how high do you draft a guy with those odds?
SmokeyPaw wrote:KGdaBom wrote:I'm starting to question if Carsen Edwards would be even a good second round pick. He absolutely offers nothing other than scoring. On the other hand he would be some amazing instant offense off the bench. Here are some details on him I pulled off Tankathon. These are all per 36 minutes.
Carsen Edwards
PG | Purdue
6'0.25"
199 lbs
Junior
21.2 yrs
24.7 pts
3.7 reb
2.9 ast
0.3 blk
1.4 stl
Ben Rubin basically offered a two part answer: if he can hit the deep three like Curry ( some indications he could) he can warp the floor. If he can also improve his passing enough to take advantage of that then he can be a major offensive star.
Ben was asked what the odds were and he spitballed 1 in 10. May seem low, but really how many prosoects can meet that type of upside.
An interesting question is how high do you draft a guy with those odds?
Measured 6'0 without shoes, 6'0 with shoes, 199 lbs, with a 6'6 wingspan and 7' 10.5" standing reach at the 2019 NBA Draft Combine
minimus wrote:SmokeyPaw wrote:KGdaBom wrote:I'm starting to question if Carsen Edwards would be even a good second round pick. He absolutely offers nothing other than scoring. On the other hand he would be some amazing instant offense off the bench. Here are some details on him I pulled off Tankathon. These are all per 36 minutes.
Carsen Edwards
PG | Purdue
6'0.25"
199 lbs
Junior
21.2 yrs
24.7 pts
3.7 reb
2.9 ast
0.3 blk
1.4 stl
Ben Rubin basically offered a two part answer: if he can hit the deep three like Curry ( some indications he could) he can warp the floor. If he can also improve his passing enough to take advantage of that then he can be a major offensive star.
Ben was asked what the odds were and he spitballed 1 in 10. May seem low, but really how many prosoects can meet that type of upside.
An interesting question is how high do you draft a guy with those odds?
One important thing to mention:Measured 6'0 without shoes, 6'0 with shoes, 199 lbs, with a 6'6 wingspan and 7' 10.5" standing reach at the 2019 NBA Draft Combine
KGdaBom wrote:minimus wrote:One important thing to mention:Measured 6'0 without shoes, 6'0 with shoes, 199 lbs, with a 6'6 wingspan and 7' 10.5" standing reach at the 2019 NBA Draft Combine
This part can't be correct so it makes me question the other parts.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
Norseman79 wrote:Going back to Darius Bazley in the 2nd, sounds like he is having some good workouts, not sure he is going to make it that long.
wolfen wrote:Norseman79 wrote:Going back to Darius Bazley in the 2nd, sounds like he is having some good workouts, not sure he is going to make it that long.
I'm totally fine with Bazely in the 2nd. Absolutely. But I'm all in on Ky Bowman for our 2nd round pick. You just can't have too many guys on your team who can handle the ball with strength and shoot it. He's got Fred Van Vleet written all over him IMO. Guys are talking about Carsen Edwards recently in this thread, which is all well and good, but Bowman has a chance to be the same type of scorer as Edwards, along with being an actual PG. Tough shot maker? That's Ky Bowman people. Bowman's got a couple inches on Edwards, so there's that. Surprisingly, Edwards has a 6-6 wingspan, Bowman's is 6-7, which explains both of their abilities to score in tough situations and get their perimeter shots off when contested. Bowman's got almost 4 inches over Edwards as far as standing reach.
Scoring last 3 years (per game)
Bowman: 14 , 17, 19
Edwards: 10, 18, 24
Statistically, Bowman is a better 3 point shooter than Edwards. He's got better STOCKs (Steals / Blocks) than Edwards, averages more assists, and Bowman is a MONSTER rebounder for a PG (double what Edwards pulls down), that indicates toughness. I like Edwards but he won't be there at pick 43, Bowman will. Ky just hasn't taken advantage of the visibility that Edwards has the last couple years with the success of Purdue. Time to get on the Bowman train people...
KGdaBom wrote:wolfen wrote:Norseman79 wrote:Going back to Darius Bazley in the 2nd, sounds like he is having some good workouts, not sure he is going to make it that long.
I'm totally fine with Bazely in the 2nd. Absolutely. But I'm all in on Ky Bowman for our 2nd round pick. You just can't have too many guys on your team who can handle the ball with strength and shoot it. He's got Fred Van Vleet written all over him IMO. Guys are talking about Carsen Edwards recently in this thread, which is all well and good, but Bowman has a chance to be the same type of scorer as Edwards, along with being an actual PG. Tough shot maker? That's Ky Bowman people. Bowman's got a couple inches on Edwards, so there's that. Surprisingly, Edwards has a 6-6 wingspan, Bowman's is 6-7, which explains both of their abilities to score in tough situations and get their perimeter shots off when contested. Bowman's got almost 4 inches over Edwards as far as standing reach.
Scoring last 3 years (per game)
Bowman: 14 , 17, 19
Edwards: 10, 18, 24
Statistically, Bowman is a better 3 point shooter than Edwards. He's got better STOCKs (Steals / Blocks) than Edwards, averages more assists, and Bowman is a MONSTER rebounder for a PG (double what Edwards pulls down), that indicates toughness. I like Edwards but he won't be there at pick 43, Bowman will. Ky just hasn't taken advantage of the visibility that Edwards has the last couple years with the success of Purdue. Time to get on the Bowman train people...
Bowman sounds great. What makes you certain Bowman will be available at 43?
wolfen wrote:KGdaBom wrote:wolfen wrote:
I'm totally fine with Bazely in the 2nd. Absolutely. But I'm all in on Ky Bowman for our 2nd round pick. You just can't have too many guys on your team who can handle the ball with strength and shoot it. He's got Fred Van Vleet written all over him IMO. Guys are talking about Carsen Edwards recently in this thread, which is all well and good, but Bowman has a chance to be the same type of scorer as Edwards, along with being an actual PG. Tough shot maker? That's Ky Bowman people. Bowman's got a couple inches on Edwards, so there's that. Surprisingly, Edwards has a 6-6 wingspan, Bowman's is 6-7, which explains both of their abilities to score in tough situations and get their perimeter shots off when contested. Bowman's got almost 4 inches over Edwards as far as standing reach.
Scoring last 3 years (per game)
Bowman: 14 , 17, 19
Edwards: 10, 18, 24
Statistically, Bowman is a better 3 point shooter than Edwards. He's got better STOCKs (Steals / Blocks) than Edwards, averages more assists, and Bowman is a MONSTER rebounder for a PG (double what Edwards pulls down), that indicates toughness. I like Edwards but he won't be there at pick 43, Bowman will. Ky just hasn't taken advantage of the visibility that Edwards has the last couple years with the success of Purdue. Time to get on the Bowman train people...
Bowman sounds great. What makes you certain Bowman will be available at 43?
I can't be certain, but I think he's an important get if I were wolves GM. I like him a notch more than Shamorie Ponds for 2nd round PG's. If we're unable to nab either of those players I'm hoping we'll find a way to bring in Jaylen Hands. My thinking right now is the Ponds will go in the 30's, Bowman in the 40's, and Hands either later in the draft or undrafted. Why do I think he'll be there at 43? Right now he's not mocked as being picked at all on some draft sites.
Here's the problem with Bowman... He's destroying people in workouts. Quote from MavsDraft twitter from his May 30th workout:
[url][/url]
"ICYMO from yesterday: Bowman May not even be available at 37 at this rate."
That comment about not being available even at pick 37 scares me. It's another reason my number one option for this draft is to retool our draft picks. 11 and 43 is not optimal for the targets that I have in mind, I would need to do some wheeling and dealing with one of the trade partners below to make it work.
Brooklyn - 17, 27, 31
Boston - 14, 20, 22
Philly - 24, 33, 34
Brooklyn & Boston aren't going to give 3 picks for 2, but if you could parlay 10 and 43 for 17 and 31 or 14 and 22 you do it. Some may think 31 is too high for Bowman but I'd consider taking him with that pick, that is how highly I think of him.
The REALLY interesting trade partner is Philly. They want to win now, they have 5 draft picks, they have money to spend. They'd CERTAINLY trade up to pick 11 to get a player and to reduce their number of draft picks. Is 11 and 43 for 24, 33, and 34 good value for us? That's a toughie. If you think it IS fair value, maybe a prospect slips to 24 that you didn't expect. PJ Washington, Romeo Langford, NAW, Mfiondu Kabengele, Tyler Herro. Chances are decent that one of those guys COULD fall to 24 and any of them are good enough to take at 11. Most likely, of that group, let's say it's Kabengele. So you take Kabengele at 24. At 33 you grab Bowman. Then at 34 you've got options options options. Want 3's and smarts? Take Dylan Windler. Want a super high IQ hustling batter 4/3 who can hit the 3 and attack closeouts? Take Chuma Okeke. Want to take a swing at a high ceiling unknown who could still be on the board? Take Bazely or Kevin Porter Jr. Hell, maybe Cam Johnson falls to 34, the best 3 point shooter in the draft.
If I were running the show I'd get on the phone, in order, with Boston, then Brooklyn, then Philly. Chances are Boston and Brooklyn would be out on a swap of picks, but I think Philly would be in. If I could come out of the draft with Kabengele, Bowman, and Dylan Windler (guys who would most likely be there at 24, 33, 34), I'd be stoked, and I'd take that over what I'd likely get at 11 and 43.
KGdaBom wrote:wolfen wrote:KGdaBom wrote:Bowman sounds great. What makes you certain Bowman will be available at 43?
I can't be certain, but I think he's an important get if I were wolves GM. I like him a notch more than Shamorie Ponds for 2nd round PG's. If we're unable to nab either of those players I'm hoping we'll find a way to bring in Jaylen Hands. My thinking right now is the Ponds will go in the 30's, Bowman in the 40's, and Hands either later in the draft or undrafted. Why do I think he'll be there at 43? Right now he's not mocked as being picked at all on some draft sites.
Here's the problem with Bowman... He's destroying people in workouts. Quote from MavsDraft twitter from his May 30th workout:
[url][/url]
"ICYMO from yesterday: Bowman May not even be available at 37 at this rate."
That comment about not being available even at pick 37 scares me. It's another reason my number one option for this draft is to retool our draft picks. 11 and 43 is not optimal for the targets that I have in mind, I would need to do some wheeling and dealing with one of the trade partners below to make it work.
Brooklyn - 17, 27, 31
Boston - 14, 20, 22
Philly - 24, 33, 34
Brooklyn & Boston aren't going to give 3 picks for 2, but if you could parlay 10 and 43 for 17 and 31 or 14 and 22 you do it. Some may think 31 is too high for Bowman but I'd consider taking him with that pick, that is how highly I think of him.
The REALLY interesting trade partner is Philly. They want to win now, they have 5 draft picks, they have money to spend. They'd CERTAINLY trade up to pick 11 to get a player and to reduce their number of draft picks. Is 11 and 43 for 24, 33, and 34 good value for us? That's a toughie. If you think it IS fair value, maybe a prospect slips to 24 that you didn't expect. PJ Washington, Romeo Langford, NAW, Mfiondu Kabengele, Tyler Herro. Chances are decent that one of those guys COULD fall to 24 and any of them are good enough to take at 11. Most likely, of that group, let's say it's Kabengele. So you take Kabengele at 24. At 33 you grab Bowman. Then at 34 you've got options options options. Want 3's and smarts? Take Dylan Windler. Want a super high IQ hustling batter 4/3 who can hit the 3 and attack closeouts? Take Chuma Okeke. Want to take a swing at a high ceiling unknown who could still be on the board? Take Bazely or Kevin Porter Jr. Hell, maybe Cam Johnson falls to 34, the best 3 point shooter in the draft.
If I were running the show I'd get on the phone, in order, with Boston, then Brooklyn, then Philly. Chances are Boston and Brooklyn would be out on a swap of picks, but I think Philly would be in. If I could come out of the draft with Kabengele, Bowman, and Dylan Windler (guys who would most likely be there at 24, 33, 34), I'd be stoked, and I'd take that over what I'd likely get at 11 and 43.
the trade you suggest with Philly is HORRIBLE value for our picks. 11 by itself is worth far more than those three combined.
wolfen wrote:KGdaBom wrote:wolfen wrote:
I can't be certain, but I think he's an important get if I were wolves GM. I like him a notch more than Shamorie Ponds for 2nd round PG's. If we're unable to nab either of those players I'm hoping we'll find a way to bring in Jaylen Hands. My thinking right now is the Ponds will go in the 30's, Bowman in the 40's, and Hands either later in the draft or undrafted. Why do I think he'll be there at 43? Right now he's not mocked as being picked at all on some draft sites.
Here's the problem with Bowman... He's destroying people in workouts. Quote from MavsDraft twitter from his May 30th workout:
[url][/url]
"ICYMO from yesterday: Bowman May not even be available at 37 at this rate."
That comment about not being available even at pick 37 scares me. It's another reason my number one option for this draft is to retool our draft picks. 11 and 43 is not optimal for the targets that I have in mind, I would need to do some wheeling and dealing with one of the trade partners below to make it work.
Brooklyn - 17, 27, 31
Boston - 14, 20, 22
Philly - 24, 33, 34
Brooklyn & Boston aren't going to give 3 picks for 2, but if you could parlay 10 and 43 for 17 and 31 or 14 and 22 you do it. Some may think 31 is too high for Bowman but I'd consider taking him with that pick, that is how highly I think of him.
The REALLY interesting trade partner is Philly. They want to win now, they have 5 draft picks, they have money to spend. They'd CERTAINLY trade up to pick 11 to get a player and to reduce their number of draft picks. Is 11 and 43 for 24, 33, and 34 good value for us? That's a toughie. If you think it IS fair value, maybe a prospect slips to 24 that you didn't expect. PJ Washington, Romeo Langford, NAW, Mfiondu Kabengele, Tyler Herro. Chances are decent that one of those guys COULD fall to 24 and any of them are good enough to take at 11. Most likely, of that group, let's say it's Kabengele. So you take Kabengele at 24. At 33 you grab Bowman. Then at 34 you've got options options options. Want 3's and smarts? Take Dylan Windler. Want a super high IQ hustling batter 4/3 who can hit the 3 and attack closeouts? Take Chuma Okeke. Want to take a swing at a high ceiling unknown who could still be on the board? Take Bazely or Kevin Porter Jr. Hell, maybe Cam Johnson falls to 34, the best 3 point shooter in the draft.
If I were running the show I'd get on the phone, in order, with Boston, then Brooklyn, then Philly. Chances are Boston and Brooklyn would be out on a swap of picks, but I think Philly would be in. If I could come out of the draft with Kabengele, Bowman, and Dylan Windler (guys who would most likely be there at 24, 33, 34), I'd be stoked, and I'd take that over what I'd likely get at 11 and 43.
the trade you suggest with Philly is HORRIBLE value for our picks. 11 by itself is worth far more than those three combined.
Honestly, if your picks in the lotto aren't almost 100% guaranteed to get at least a borderline all-star player (this year I'd include Zion, Ja, RJ, Darius, Coby, Jarret, Cam), almost every single year good players are almost equally found through the first 35 picks. Yes, the dreaded "value chart" says that it isn't a good value trade, but I'd argue the value chart isn't too valuable if the picks you're trading aren't all-star (or close) picks before you trade them. Often times, better to get more picks in the 10 to 35 range spread out (24, 33, 34 for example) rather than having ONE pick in that range (11).
Let's look at some of the last few drafts and see what we could have gotten. Maybe your point will be proven, I haven't even analyzed it yet. I'll use a 2 pick range instead of just "the pick", in other words, if we're looking at pick 11 from last year, we'll look at who was taken at picks 11 or 12. So we'll compare picks 11/12 and 43/44 vs. 24/25, 32/33, 34/35 going back the last few drafts and see what we get and what would MORE OFTEN gives the better end result.
2018: 11/12: GILGIOUS-ALEXANDER or Miles Bridges 43/44: JUSTIN JACKSON or Issuf Sanon
24/25: ANFERNEE SIMONS or Moritz Wagner (Landry Shamet was the next pick) 32/33: Jevon Carter or JALEN BRUNSON 34/35: DEVONTE GRAHAM or Melvin Frazier (Mitchell Robinson was the next pick)
2017: 11/12: MALIK MONK or Luke Kennard (D. Mitchell was the next pick) 43/44: ISIAIAH HARTENSTEIN or Damyean Dotson
24/25: TYLER LYDON or Anzejs Pasecniks (Kuzma went 2 picks later) 32/33: Devon Reed or WES IWUNDU 34/35: FRANK MASON or Ivan Rabb (Ojeleye and Jordan Bell a couple picks later)
2016 (ugh what a sh@tty draft): 11/12: DAMATUS SABONIS or Taurean Prince 43/44: ZHOU QUI or Isaia Cordinier
24/25: Brice Johnson or FURKAN KORKMAZ (Pascal Siakiam was next pick) 32/33: IVICA ZUBAC or Cheick Diallo 34/35: TYLER ULIS or Rade Zagorac (Brogdon the next pick)
2015: 11/12: MYLES TURNER or Trey Lyles (Booker was next pick) 43/44: JOE YOUNG or Andrew Harrison (Norm Powell 2 picks later)
24/25: TYUS JONES or Jerrel Martin (Nance 2 picks later) 32/33: MONTREZ HARREL or Jordan Mickey 34/35: Anthony Brown or WILLY HERNANGOMEZ (damn good player) (Josh Richardson a few picks later)
2014: 11/12: Doug McDermott or DARIO SARIC (Lavine next pick) 43/44: Walter Tevares or MARKEL BROWN (Jordan Clarkson 2 picks later)
25/25: Shabazz Napier or CLINT CAPELLA 32/33: KJ McDaniels or JOE HARRIS 34/35: Cleo Early or JARNELL STOKES (Dinwiddie a few picks later)
OK, let's break it down. Option A is having picks 11 and 43 and what you probably would have ended up with, and option B is picks 24, 33, and 34 and what you would have ended up with.
-Best player: Capella (pick 25)
-Option A quality players: Gilgeous-Alexander, Malik Monk, D. Sabonis, Myles Turner, Dario Saric
-Option B quality players: Anfernee Simons, Jalen Brunson, Furkan Korkmaz, Ivaca Zubac, Tyus Jones, Montrez Harrel, Willy Hernangomez, Clint Capella, Joe Harris
-Observation: In drafts that are not considered "strong" (2016 for example), option B seems to be way better.
-Option A "could have had" players a pick or 2 later: Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, Norm Powell, Zach LaVine, Jordan Clarkson
-Option B "could have had" players a pick or 2 later: Landry Shamet, Mitchell Robinson, Kyle Kuzma, Jordan Bell, Pascal Siakam, Malcolm Brogdon, Larry Nance Jr., Josh Richardson, Spencer Dinwiddie
I don't know man, it's tough. You say it's a terrible value trade with Philly, but looking at what could have happened the last 5 drafts in those 2 scenarios, it's close. If you're a math guy, which I am, knowing that you could argue option A or option B was better, I'd lean option B (more picks in the 10-35 range) simply because you're increasing your odds in the sweet spot of the draft. Also, it's a common belief that this year's draft isn't super strong, and as I mentioned above, in drafts like that it's better to have more picks in the sweet spot versus just one that is higher in the sweet spot.
And honestly, if you focus simply on QUALITY of player in this year's draft, some of the guys we've all been talking about who may be "worthy" of the 11th pick: Clarke, Hachimura, Little, NAW, PJ Wash, Mfiondu Kabengele, Bitadze, Herro, Langford, Doumbouya... We've argued around and around who's the better player, and we really truly don't know. The odds are QUITE good that 1-2 of them will somehow magically slip to pick 24, that type of thing happens every year. So then you've got a guy at 24 who was in your pool of players you were considering at 11 AND you've got picks 33 and 34 later in the draft instead of 43. Other guys at 24 who have a good chance of being just as good as those mentioned above (if they are all taken at 24) are Keldon Johnson, Talen Horton-Tucker, Luka Samanic. Samanic, 6-11 PF, 230, from Croatia, would be an EXCELLENT consolation prize at 24, especially knowing I will have my pick of possible players at 33 and 34 like Dylan Windler, Cam Johnson, Carsen Edwards, Ky Bowman, Kevin Porter Jr, Shamorie Ponds, Grant Williams, Chuma Okeke, Lugentz Dort, Louis King, Darius Bazely, Jalen Leque - all guys possibly gone by pick 43 and you can have TWO of them with picks 33 and 34. That grouping (take 2) vs. the grouping of what is likely available at 43 (take 1): Jontay Porter, Sagaba Konate, Admiral Schofield, Zach Norvell plus a couple in group 1 that "falls".
Man am I wasting some serious work time today fellas!! LOVE breaking down drafts!!
A couple of nice Samanic links...
https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/5/28/18638537/luka-samanic-nba-draft-2019-scouting-report-atlanta-hawks-croatia-shooting
[url][/url]
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