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The Jarrett Culver Thread

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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#441 » by Klomp » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:01 pm

minimus wrote:I agree that sometimes it feels like Jarrett needs 5 minute rest, because he is too sloppy or lost. I wish that we could immediately give him some rest + guidance, and give Martin/Nowell a few minutes to play. However, within game dynamic it is not always possible due to many other problems. For instance, recently Culver played a lot because of all Teague, Wiggins, Okogie, Napier missing games.

Well said.

I think people must be wishing that we could give all of Culver's PG minutes to Jordan McLaughlin. That's who would likely get them if not Culver because that's the next-best healthy PG option on the roster right now who has room for a minutes bump.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#442 » by minimus » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:08 pm

Jedzz wrote:minimus doesn't understand anything [...] he also doesn't seem to care about winning at all.


Long story short
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#443 » by KGdaBom » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:08 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:I agree that sometimes it feels like Jarrett needs 5 minute rest, because he is too sloppy or lost. I wish that we could immediately give him some rest + guidance, and give Martin/Nowell a few minutes to play. However, within game dynamic it is not always possible due to many other problems. For instance, recently Culver played a lot because of all Teague, Wiggins, Okogie, Napier missing games.

Well said.

I think people must be wishing that we could give all of Culver's PG minutes to Jordan McLaughlin. That's who would likely get them if not Culver because that's the next-best healthy PG option on the roster right now who has room for a minutes bump.

Don't give his minutes to McLaughlin or Graham. Also he does have to play to develop IMO. That said I just dumped him in my 16 team money fantasy league for the guy drafted at #11 Cam Johnson.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#444 » by DaKid » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:13 pm

I really think he looks good in the starting lineup next to wiggins and towns. He gets open looks and he's not pressured to try to make things happen or take bad shots
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#445 » by Klomp » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:38 pm

Jedzz wrote:minimus doesn't understand anything different could help both the team now and Culver's developemnt. He also doesn't seem to care about winning at all.

Did it help Okogie's game to just thrust him into such high minutes last season? Does he look anymore aware on offense this season? He wasn't learning as much as he was just doing what he could. Focused minutes would have helped him so much more.

And as if we need any more examples, we have the 5 years of WIggins to point to. Instant 25-38 minute role from day one through 5 years did not speed up his development. It took the time it took for him to decide to bear down, for him to realize more was being asked of him than what he was putting effort into, for him to learn that everyone watching wasn't descibing him as the people around him were all those years. Once Wiggins learned the truth of how others perceived his play, he made a decision to do something about it. That had absolutely nothing to do with being a five year starter from the word go. If anything, the red carpet treatment he got and the free minutes just allowed him to play famous Wolves star character for five years. This is the example that should make everyone wiser about the next draft pick that first shows you he needs a slower development track.

You are comparing vastly different situations. Okogie and Culver were thrust into "high minutes" out of necessity. And is 24 mpg really high minutes (Okogie's playing time last year and Culver's playing time this year)? I don't believe so. It's very different from Wiggins, who averaged 36 minutes as a rookie.

In Player A's first half of his rookie year, he averaged 20 mpg and scored 6 ppg on 41% shooting. Do you believe he was deserving of more minutes or fewer minutes in the second half of the season?
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#446 » by Jedzz » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:05 am

Klomp wrote:
Jedzz wrote:minimus doesn't understand anything different could help both the team now and Culver's developemnt. He also doesn't seem to care about winning at all.

Did it help Okogie's game to just thrust him into such high minutes last season? Does he look anymore aware on offense this season? He wasn't learning as much as he was just doing what he could. Focused minutes would have helped him so much more.

And as if we need any more examples, we have the 5 years of WIggins to point to. Instant 25-38 minute role from day one through 5 years did not speed up his development. It took the time it took for him to decide to bear down, for him to realize more was being asked of him than what he was putting effort into, for him to learn that everyone watching wasn't descibing him as the people around him were all those years. Once Wiggins learned the truth of how others perceived his play, he made a decision to do something about it. That had absolutely nothing to do with being a five year starter from the word go. If anything, the red carpet treatment he got and the free minutes just allowed him to play famous Wolves star character for five years. This is the example that should make everyone wiser about the next draft pick that first shows you he needs a slower development track.

You are comparing vastly different situations. Okogie and Culver were thrust into "high minutes" out of necessity. And is 24 mpg really high minutes (Okogie's playing time last year and Culver's playing time this year)? I don't believe so. It's very different from Wiggins, who averaged 36 minutes as a rookie.

In Player A's first half of his rookie year, he averaged 20 mpg and scored 6 ppg on 41% shooting. Do you believe he was deserving of more minutes or fewer minutes in the second half of the season?

Both Okogie and now Culver have started games very early in their rookie seasons and no, they were not ready for any of that. Because starting, they play against the other teams best that will make them pay for mistakes, screw with their confidence and overall take advantage of them to win these games. No, they were not actually starting out of necessity. There were alsways other players that could start those games. Nobody on Rosas team this year is averaging the type of minutes we've seen in the past, but the same mistakes are still happening.

Wiggins is the ultimate example because this team threw that alarmingly high amout of free minutes at him for 5 years and it was all more or less meaningless to development. A much better coach and system having him playing from bench minutes and earning more minutes only after he learned to develop the skills and consistency to perform and deserve it could have had him primetime after one or two years. They would have placed him into game moments against specific opponents that helped that progression and hid him from moments that would only turn them into reactionary screwballs. More than anything it would reinforce in their minds that it is a requirement to hone your skills constantly to earn a role in this league. None of that happened for Wiggins and damn if we aren't doing the same to Culver. Already I read posts from people here that are identical to what was going on during the first 3 years for Wiggs. The same percentage of people that think the same way and never change.

These same people claim that Reid has all these weaknesses so he can't play yet. And yet they praise Culver for anything good and completely ignore the 75% rookie crap that he is showing us. One can start and it's not a problem. The other can't buy a minute on this team and that's supposed to be correct in their head. What head, I'm talking to zombies.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#447 » by Klomp » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:22 am

Klomp wrote:In Player A's first half of his rookie year, he averaged 20 mpg and scored 6 ppg on 41% shooting. Do you believe he was deserving of more minutes or fewer minutes in the second half of the season?

Would love for someone to answer if a player with that statline should be deserving of more minutes or fewer minutes in the second half of a season.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#448 » by andyhop » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:04 am

minimus wrote:
beezy wrote:Jarrett Culver's minutes although useful for experience are killing us. His efficiency is terrible, he's taking the shots teams are daring him to and they don't go in. He is a turnover waiting to happen. His advanced metrics bear all this out and at least my eye test certainly does as well. An adjustment of minutes is needed I think. He's gonna be a player but if we want to win now his 25 minutes aren't helping.


I am perfectly fine with Culver getting consistent 25 minutes every game. He is getting enough opportunities to learn. We want to win now, but we are not in must win now mode. That is a big difference.


If only there was a sort of reserve team where he could be force fed minutes without it affecting anything meaningful .

Oh wait.......
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#449 » by minimus » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:07 am

andyhop wrote:
minimus wrote:
beezy wrote:Jarrett Culver's minutes although useful for experience are killing us. His efficiency is terrible, he's taking the shots teams are daring him to and they don't go in. He is a turnover waiting to happen. His advanced metrics bear all this out and at least my eye test certainly does as well. An adjustment of minutes is needed I think. He's gonna be a player but if we want to win now his 25 minutes aren't helping.


I am perfectly fine with Culver getting consistent 25 minutes every game. He is getting enough opportunities to learn. We want to win now, but we are not in must win now mode. That is a big difference.


If only there was a sort of reserve team where he could be force fed minutes without it affecting anything meaningful .

Oh wait...


Do you consider Culver as a meaningful asset?
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#450 » by andyhop » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:15 am

minimus wrote:
andyhop wrote:
minimus wrote:
I am perfectly fine with Culver getting consistent 25 minutes every game. He is getting enough opportunities to learn. We want to win now, but we are not in must win now mode. That is a big difference.


If only there was a sort of reserve team where he could be force fed minutes without it affecting anything meaningful .

Oh wait...


Do you consider Culver as a meaningful asset?


I think he is an asset how meaningful I have no idea .

I would rather not play terrible rookie players serious minutes in the NBA when it can be done in the G League, unless the team is going to outright tank in which case go for it .
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#451 » by minimus » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:20 am

andyhop wrote:
minimus wrote:
andyhop wrote:
If only there was a sort of reserve team where he could be force fed minutes without it affecting anything meaningful .

Oh wait...


Do you consider Culver as a meaningful asset?


I think he is an asset how meaningful I have no idea .

I would rather not play terrible rookie players serious minutes in the NBA when it can be done in the G League, unless the team is going to outright tank in which case go for it .


From all top12(except Zion and Hayes) Culver averages lowest minutes 23.2 per games, while his usage is not highest. So his minutes are not something strange for top10 pick. No top10 from draft 2019 plays in gleague.

Is his play terrible? Yes, sometimes. Are there sings of him developing into a star player? Yes, many. So I am okay with his mistakes, if prize might be a star player.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#452 » by Worm Guts » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:11 pm

I’m not sure who you want to give his minutes to that would be less terrible, unless you just want to play Wiggins or Okogie more.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#453 » by Jedzz » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:26 pm

Worm Guts wrote:I’m not sure who you want to give his minutes to that would be less terrible, unless you just want to play Wiggins or Okogie more.


As is typical for these arguments there are not enough details, words, to apty define your question. It's a cheap attempt to circumnavigate the issue entirely.

"give his minutes" - Are you defining this as ALL his minutes? Is it ALL or Nothing?

The correct answer is never all or nothing. But it's often the argument presented for not changing.

Also as often offered in the argument, like in this instance, is a fall guy option. Who defined Okogie or more WIggins minutes the only solutions? You? But even in this case, 3 more minutes for Okogie/Wiggins each won't hurt us like 6 more minutes of Culver can.

Here's another weakness in that proposal of options and results. The results. You are all of a sudden claiming you care about the results. When the entire argument for starting and high minutes for Culver has been his singular development, clearly not the output Clearly, 28% shooting on 14 shots from all depths is not a good result. The most recent after all this "development".

Culvers minutes in games, working backwards:
24,24,29,30,27,23,31,23,30,24,26,16,13,13,16(Oct 23rd first game)

Looking at results you see his minutes start out in the teens, and the team is winning many games. A fast 3-1 start.
Looking at the highest minute games since, 29(L), 30(L), 31(L), 30(L)

The current results are losses for this extended load, and the current excuse from a few here is not to care about the W/L this year.

The answer is Culver can be allowed to play this year and the team can still win games. Towns can still claim we are giving young players the chance to play and succeed. Just don't drop the season just to get him alone high minutes. Towns can create a culture where more than one young player can get minutes during the season. This also increases the chances that you will find one of those young players that immediately flashes high level performance along the way.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#454 » by Jedzz » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:35 pm

andyhop wrote:
minimus wrote:
andyhop wrote:
If only there was a sort of reserve team where he could be force fed minutes without it affecting anything meaningful .

Oh wait...


Do you consider Culver as a meaningful asset?


I think he is an asset how meaningful I have no idea .

I would rather not play terrible rookie players serious minutes in the NBA when it can be done in the G League, unless the team is going to outright tank in which case go for it .


I agree Andyhop.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#455 » by Worm Guts » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:05 pm

Guys like Martin and Graham are getting minutes while having similar productivity as Culver. It just seems like a micro-criticism to me. We don’t seem have enough quality depth without everyone healthy.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#456 » by KGdaBom » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:13 pm

Klomp wrote:
Klomp wrote:In Player A's first half of his rookie year, he averaged 20 mpg and scored 6 ppg on 41% shooting. Do you believe he was deserving of more minutes or fewer minutes in the second half of the season?

Would love for someone to answer if a player with that statline should be deserving of more minutes or fewer minutes in the second half of a season.

Klomp it is obviously a loaded question and the player is probably some current superstar. Tell me who the player is rather than just quote a part of his stats and I will answer your question.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#457 » by Shaka_Zulu » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Slim Tubby wrote:I'm literally on the fence right now with Culver. I've seen enough potential that I think he can develop into a very good starter in this league yet I haven't seen enough where I would refuse to include him in a trade that brings back a more established player under the age of 25. Does that make any sense?
It makes sense, especially the part of trading for a player under 25. Young enough upside but more ready player I would trade for, Culver despite early days, looks like a deer caught in headlights every game. Not seeing special upside enough yet to say no to a trade deal for another young youngish player.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#458 » by Crazy-Canuck » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:55 pm

Based solely on the start of this season (14 games in), i dont think hed go lottery in a redraft.
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#459 » by Klomp » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:42 pm

Crazy-Canuck wrote:Based solely on the start of this season (14 games in), i dont think hed go lottery in a redraft.

Same could've been said for Kevin Garnett in 1995. Might as well move on...
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Re: The Jarrett Culver Thread 

Post#460 » by Jedzz » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:18 pm

Klomp wrote:
Crazy-Canuck wrote:Based solely on the start of this season (14 games in), i dont think hed go lottery in a redraft.

Same could've been said for Kevin Garnett in 1995. Might as well move on...


Completely different positional players with completely different output expectations. And yet Garnett was immediately a more confident offensive and defensive all around player doing so many different things on the court and for someone of his size, flashing brilliance early on for one reason or another. In his 8th game for example, 5 blocks, 5 boards, 4 assists, 1 steal, 3 for 4 on FT, 1 of 2 from 3 in his first 30 minute game. How many 19 year olds show this? it's not a monster stat total, it's just a good basketball players collection for one rookie game. In his first 35 games, he only had this one >30 minute game. He had a few players to supplant before he could really take over. It wasn't constant 25 pt games that allowed him to supplant the others in minutes by midseason. It was everything he could do already. From the first game, his worst errors might be a blocked shot called for goal tending.

There is a huge difference in what Culver's showing immediately from what a few others have shown last few years of rookies. it's not a future knock on what he can be, the start is just what it has been. Maybe Kobe is a better star comparison for the goal of your post.

Kobe only had 7 starts his first two seasons. This guy was developed wiser. But he was flashing as a shooter early on with his bench development minutes. His first game ever, against the Wolves for 6 minutes off the bench, zero scores but a block, steal and rebound and that's it. There was range, game IQ, and decisiveness already displayed. They beat the Garnett/ Starbury farm team. Does this save Culver's chances better? The Lakers really kept the pressure off him by removing the onus of starts for that long a period. Maybe it was being drafted 13th that allowed that team to slow that early pressure of starts. Top 6 players must be started in Minnesota, right? Easier to find ourselves critical on a starter if you ask me, because he's playing against starters more often.

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