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Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over?

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Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#1 » by Calinks » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:23 pm

Back in 2013 we started our rebuild and decided to build around young talent. The hope was to get a team good enough that after 4-5 years we would be in a position to contend while some of the power house teams would have fallen off.

It seems that time is now. Golden State will not be the mega power house they have been. Cavs are done. The west is pretty wide open if you have a good team and we were hoping to have just that. If we played our cards right, stuck with the rebuild and made some smart moves we may be working with a core of Wiggins, KAT, Lavine, Markenen, Jamal Murray. Don't know if that team is good enough to contend but it would be a team that could compete for the playoffs.

Think we have closed the book on that project though and this is a new one. Again we will hope that in 3-5 years we will be good enough to compete for a title. Now we just got to figure out how we are going to get there. Another unsuccessful rebuild in the books.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#2 » by Battletrigger » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:35 am

The Flips rebuild died with him, we will never know what Flip would do back there, only what Thibs or Rosas have done with their assets.

The team you say can be funny to watch, but definetly it's not a contender. To be a contender these days you have to have a very special player like Kawhi, KD, Bron or Curry. And don't have a player near that level.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#3 » by BigRedDog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:24 am

Yes. At this point you've got to get creative and figure out a way to add a guard. Pissing off Jimmy with that Wiggins extension and then not paying him was sorta silly.

A Covington/KAT frontcourt is good enough to be pretty competitive if you get a 3rd star and then add some depth though.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#4 » by wesleyt95 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:04 am

BigRedDog wrote:Yes. At this point you've got to get creative and figure out a way to add a guard. Pissing off Jimmy with that Wiggins extension and then not paying him was sorta silly.

A Covington/KAT frontcourt is good enough to be pretty competitive if you get a 3rd star and then add some depth though.

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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#5 » by BigRedDog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:16 am

wesleyt95 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Yes. At this point you've got to get creative and figure out a way to add a guard. Pissing off Jimmy with that Wiggins extension and then not paying him was sorta silly.

A Covington/KAT frontcourt is good enough to be pretty competitive if you get a 3rd star and then add some depth though.

Jeff Teague, Josh Okogie, 2020 1st, 2022 1st + 2nd for Jrue Holiday at the deadline



I think something like that would make a lot of sense. The Pelicans prob need to move on from Jrue as he's too good to just let him rot on 40 game winners, he doesnt fit their rebuild timeline and he's expensive.

Then again, they've got the best defensive backcourt in the league pairing him with Lonzo.

Jrue/Covington would really help mitigate some of KAT's defensive limitations and Minnesota badly needs help at both guard spots.

Jrue strikes me as a guy primarily concerned with being on a competitive team moreso than just what city he lives in so he'd probably be a really good fit.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#6 » by Calinks » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:24 am

Another thing. I see a lot of speculation that Roco will start at the 4. I don't like that idea, seems too small. You guys think we could be solid doing that? I know the NBA is a lot smaller but sheesh.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#7 » by minimus » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:15 am

Calinks wrote:Another thing. I see a lot of speculation that Roco will start at the 4. I don't like that idea, seems too small. You guys think we could be solid doing that? I know the NBA is a lot smaller but sheesh.


I don't like this idea for two reasons:

First, I think RoCo body type is too fragile to play 4 significant minutes. I am very concerned about his injuries so I would try to minimise this risk as much as we can.

Second, the biggest income of last season of playing RoCo at SF was having enough length and size at both SF and SG position with Wiggins and RoCo. We could contest shots better, rebound better and provide better weak side help. If we play Wiggins and let say Okogie at SF/SG then there is no real advantage for us in defence. Okogie has physical tools and motor, but his defensive awareness is not at RoCo level. While Wiggins is clearly a liability against SFs.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#8 » by El Hespiritu » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:07 pm

Just to point out a minor thing...

Flip's project didn't die with him.
It started to agonize when we fired Interim Sam, Sleepy Milton and KG.

And still not totally beyond reanimation. KAT & WIggo were Flip's main pillars for MIN future and they're here with maximum salaries.

But I understand the style of team and FO around them has been going so divergent to Flips' idea that just coroner's signature is required now as a mere formality.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#9 » by Worm Guts » Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:13 pm

Calinks wrote:Another thing. I see a lot of speculation that Roco will start at the 4. I don't like that idea, seems too small. You guys think we could be solid doing that? I know the NBA is a lot smaller but sheesh.


He’s 6’8-9 which isn’t all that small for a PF, but beyond that I’m not against trying different lineups and seeing what works.
I think you could really challenge teams by putting out a lineup consisting entirely of skilled perimeter players.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#10 » by wesleyt95 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:26 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
Calinks wrote:Another thing. I see a lot of speculation that Roco will start at the 4. I don't like that idea, seems too small. You guys think we could be solid doing that? I know the NBA is a lot smaller but sheesh.


He’s 6’8-9 which isn’t all that small for a PF, but beyond that I’m not against trying different lineups and seeing what works.
I think you could really challenge teams by putting out a lineup consisting entirely of skilled perimeter players.

Replacing Saric with Covington is definitely an upgrade on the defensive end and I dont think we lose much on offense, Saric was getting torched on switches and by athletic stretch 4's
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#11 » by Klomp » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:51 pm

minimus wrote:Second, the biggest income of last season of playing RoCo at SF was having enough length and size at both SF and SG position with Wiggins and RoCo. We could contest shots better, rebound better and provide better weak side help. If we play Wiggins and let say Okogie at SF/SG then there is no real advantage for us in defence. Okogie has physical tools and motor, but his defensive awareness is not at RoCo level. While Wiggins is clearly a liability against SFs.

This is part of why I'm somewhat down on Okogie and Nowell getting big minutes this year.

I think though that Culver and Layman have the size and switchability to where we're able to stay bigger even with Covington at PF. It's also why I think Graham could have a role.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#12 » by Folklore » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:03 pm

BigRedDog wrote:
wesleyt95 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Yes. At this point you've got to get creative and figure out a way to add a guard. Pissing off Jimmy with that Wiggins extension and then not paying him was sorta silly.

A Covington/KAT frontcourt is good enough to be pretty competitive if you get a 3rd star and then add some depth though.

Jeff Teague, Josh Okogie, 2020 1st, 2022 1st + 2nd for Jrue Holiday at the deadline




I think something like that would make a lot of sense. The Pelicans prob need to move on from Jrue as he's too good to just let him rot on 40 game winners, he doesnt fit their rebuild timeline and he's expensive.

Then again, they've got the best defensive backcourt in the league pairing him with Lonzo.

Jrue/Covington would really help mitigate some of KAT's defensive limitations and Minnesota badly needs help at both guard spots.

Jrue strikes me as a guy primarily concerned with being on a competitive team moreso than just what city he lives in so he'd probably be a really good fit.



All those firsts are way too much o give up for a 29 year old player.

And what makes you think that the wolves can win more than 40 games next season? A couple players will have to play better than last year and Culver will have to play better than Rose for that to happen.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#13 » by BigRedDog » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:10 pm

Folklore wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
wesleyt95 wrote:Jeff Teague, Josh Okogie, 2020 1st, 2022 1st + 2nd for Jrue Holiday at the deadline




I think something like that would make a lot of sense. The Pelicans prob need to move on from Jrue as he's too good to just let him rot on 40 game winners, he doesnt fit their rebuild timeline and he's expensive.

Then again, they've got the best defensive backcourt in the league pairing him with Lonzo.

Jrue/Covington would really help mitigate some of KAT's defensive limitations and Minnesota badly needs help at both guard spots.

Jrue strikes me as a guy primarily concerned with being on a competitive team moreso than just what city he lives in so he'd probably be a really good fit.



All those firsts are way too much o give up for a 29 year old player.

And what makes you think that the wolves can win more than 40 games next season? A couple players will have to play better than last year and Culver will have to play better than Rose for that to happen.


A BIg 3 of Holiday/Cov/KAT should win more than 40 games. Minnesota's depth is pretty bad though so its possible they wouldnt i guess.

And yeah 1 first rounder should be sufficient i think
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#14 » by minimus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:38 am

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:Second, the biggest income of last season of playing RoCo at SF was having enough length and size at both SF and SG position with Wiggins and RoCo. We could contest shots better, rebound better and provide better weak side help. If we play Wiggins and let say Okogie at SF/SG then there is no real advantage for us in defence. Okogie has physical tools and motor, but his defensive awareness is not at RoCo level. While Wiggins is clearly a liability against SFs.

This is part of why I'm somewhat down on Okogie and Nowell getting big minutes this year.

I think though that Culver and Layman have the size and switchability to where we're able to stay bigger even with Covington at PF. It's also why I think Graham could have a role.


I understand enthusiasm of some fans here regarding Nowell. He looks promising. However, it is clear that Ryan and Rosas have some priorities in terms of minute management.

1) they need to understand how much Wiggins can improve, they will put him in best situation to succeed in order to either make him at least neutral trade asset or make him legit scorer

2) Culver will see same approach. Rosas needs to show/justify his first draft pick in MIN, so Jarret will be our first backup option at wings

If at least one of Culver/Wiggins shows that he is a legit star then Rosas job will be a lot easier as this is crucial year to build foundation around KAT. That is why in Nowell, Reid situation it is very important contract structure. More than money. Having them on 1+3 contract allows to be much flexible. I wish we had signed KBD on such deal as well.

There are also two parts on regular season. First part, when everybody tries to get some chemistry, get as much as possbile wins, give players opportunities to prove. Second part, with much less competition when bad teams start to tank, and good teams prepares for playoff, reducing workloads etc. The main idea is that Rosas built a roster were young players can be developed and push other players for minutes in rotation after deadline. Nowell/Reid will get their minutes in g-league but I dont expect them to contribute in main team in first half of the season.

I still think that Rosas will try to trade for a star by tradeline.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#15 » by minimus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:38 am

BigRedDog wrote:
Folklore wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
I think something like that would make a lot of sense. The Pelicans prob need to move on from Jrue as he's too good to just let him rot on 40 game winners, he doesnt fit their rebuild timeline and he's expensive.

Then again, they've got the best defensive backcourt in the league pairing him with Lonzo.

Jrue/Covington would really help mitigate some of KAT's defensive limitations and Minnesota badly needs help at both guard spots.

Jrue strikes me as a guy primarily concerned with being on a competitive team moreso than just what city he lives in so he'd probably be a really good fit.



All those firsts are way too much o give up for a 29 year old player.

And what makes you think that the wolves can win more than 40 games next season? A couple players will have to play better than last year and Culver will have to play better than Rose for that to happen.


A BIg 3 of Holiday/Cov/KAT should win more than 40 games. Minnesota's depth is pretty bad though so its possible they wouldnt i guess.

And yeah 1 first rounder should be sufficient i think


Holiday is a perfect fit here. Maybe Griffin will be willing to trade him if he see that Lonzo and NAW are good enough.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#16 » by Killboard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:03 pm

Battletrigger wrote:The Flips rebuild died with him, we will never know what Flip would do back there, only what Thibs or Rosas have done with their assets.

The team you say can be funny to watch, but definetly it's not a contender. To be a contender these days you have to have a very special player like Kawhi, KD, Bron or Curry. And don't have a player near that level.


We have a top15 player (at worst) in the league who happens to be 23 years old. But neither of the players you mentioned made their teams special without a very good to all-star cast around them. When KAT had it the wolves won close 50 games in the bloodbath that is the west.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#17 » by Killboard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:10 pm

El Hespiritu wrote:Just to point out a minor thing...

Flip's project didn't die with him.
It started to agonize when we fired Interim Sam, Sleepy Milton and KG.

And still not totally beyond reanimation. KAT & WIggo were Flip's main pillars for MIN future and they're here with maximum salaries.

But I understand the style of team and FO around them has been going so divergent to Flips' idea that just coroner's signature is required now as a mere formality.

Flip didnt want Mitchell coaching the team, otherwise he would have put him in that position.

I really liked Flip as a person and I think was a pretty classic guy regarding his vision of basketball. I will be forever greatful for picking and developing KG, and picking KAT over Okafor. Every other pick or move is worth discussing and should not be glorified by his likeable memories.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#18 » by Klomp » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:18 pm

Killboard wrote:I will be forever greatful for picking and developing KG, and picking KAT over Okafor. Every other pick or move is worth discussing and should not be glorified by his likeable memories

LaVine was a great pick too
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#19 » by Killboard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:26 pm

Klomp wrote:
Killboard wrote:I will be forever greatful for picking and developing KG, and picking KAT over Okafor. Every other pick or move is worth discussing and should not be glorified by his likeable memories

LaVine was a great pick too


It was a good pick but isnt comparable to the other two IMO. Lavine was a high risk pick who mitigated half of the risk by developing into a very efficient shooter. But for example Denver that draft picked Gary Harris, Nurkic and Nikola Jokic with the 16th, 19th and 41th pick. They literally turned around the franchise with that value.
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Re: Safe to say Flips 2013 rebuild has failed and is over? 

Post#20 » by Killboard » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:46 pm

As long as KAT is here the rebuild isnt over. The wolves have the hardest piece of the puzzle in him, they just have to stop shooting themselves in the foot to reach competence, which at least they have managed to not do this offseason. The main problem they have is how to make Wiggins contract get close to neutral value, a contract that Flip wasnt responsable for (but I think he would have given anyway).

How to make Wiggins contract close to neutral? One would be Wiggins being MIP candidate. Ryan running a system at which Wiggins can excel is a must for this to happen. Additionaly I think it likely would require Wiggins putting more muscle this offseason that in the last 5 years combined, or that he has a fluke year (at worst) or great developing shooting wise (I wont hold my breath for this one).

If not by improvement then the other way to make Wiggins contract look close to neutral value is by trading him to a rebuilding team who still see upside in an almost 15000 minutes player. The assets coming back in a trade wont be pretty but at least will let us retool around KAT without waiting an eternity.

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