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Constructing the Timberwolves rotation

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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#441 » by minimus » Tue May 26, 2020 1:36 pm

One scenario that I have been thinking a lot so far:

We get #1 pick. We draft Edwards.
Trade JJ, Edwards, Nowell for Aaron Gordon, ORL FRP (#15)

Why for ORL? They get two talented wings on cheap contracts to balance their roster.
Why for MIN? Get starting PF and 3&D prospect.

Trade BRO pick (#16), Culver, Spellman, Evans for DET FRP (#5)

Why for DET? They get multiple talent to develop next season.
Why for MIN? Move up in draft to get secondary playmaker/bench scorer. Cleanup roster. Create cap room.

Offer Joe Harris full MLE (36mil/4yrs)
BRO have 135mil guaranteed for next season. Harris is UFA. I dont know whether BRO is going to offer him a new contract, nor if we have cap room to sign him, but I would call him the first minute FA market is open.

Draft Tyrese Maxey(#5), Saddiq Bey(#15), Paul Reed (#33). Would probably let Juancho go. Re-sign Martin, JMac

KAT/Reid/Reed
Gordon/Bey/Vanderbilt
Harris/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/Bey
DLo/Maxey/JMac

This is a perfect scenario for number of reasons.

1) KAT-Harris-Beasley are elite 3pt shooters all shooting above 40% from 3pt. Joe Harris is a good defender and slasher. He can play SF.
2) Gordon instantly becomes an unstoppable force in transition when court is open with four shooters around. He can play secondary ballhandler, facilitator, rim runner.
3) We still will have enough young players who can grow into solid players: Vanderbilt, Martin, Bey, Maxey, JMac. They all fit our needs.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#442 » by SaintS » Wed May 27, 2020 8:56 am

minimus wrote:One scenario that I have been thinking a lot so far:

We get #1 pick. We draft Edwards.
Trade JJ, Edwards, Nowell for Aaron Gordon, ORL FRP (#15)

Why for ORL? They get two talented wings on cheap contracts to balance their roster.
Why for MIN? Get starting PF and 3&D prospect.

Trade BRO pick (#16), Culver, Spellman, Evans for DET FRP (#5)

Why for DET? They get multiple talent to develop next season.
Why for MIN? Move up in draft to get secondary playmaker/bench scorer. Cleanup roster. Create cap room.



Take your idea but make different realisation
I really don't think that we need 3 young talents for the team.

First trade with DET
#1 pick+Jacob Evans+Spellman for #5 + Doumbouya

Second with ORL
#16+33+JJ+Nowell for Gordon

#5
Gordon
Doumbouya
and -5,40 mio from salary

KAT/Reid/
Gordon/Doumbouya/Vanderbilt
Culver/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/
DLo/#pg who will be best available/JMac
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#443 » by minimus » Wed May 27, 2020 9:24 am

SaintS wrote:
minimus wrote:One scenario that I have been thinking a lot so far:

We get #1 pick. We draft Edwards.
Trade JJ, Edwards, Nowell for Aaron Gordon, ORL FRP (#15)

Why for ORL? They get two talented wings on cheap contracts to balance their roster.
Why for MIN? Get starting PF and 3&D prospect.

Trade BRO pick (#16), Culver, Spellman, Evans for DET FRP (#5)

Why for DET? They get multiple talent to develop next season.
Why for MIN? Move up in draft to get secondary playmaker/bench scorer. Cleanup roster. Create cap room.



Take your idea but make different realisation
I really don't think that we need 3 young talents for the team.


Ooo, I was a big fan of Doumbouya a year ago.

#1 pick+Culver+Jacob Evans+Spellman for #5 + Doumbouya
#16+33+JJ+Nowell for Gordon

Offer Jar Crowder 24mil/4yrs deal

KAT/Reid/Gordon
Gordon/Doumbouya/Vanderbilt
Crowder/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/DLo
DLo/BPA/JMac

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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#444 » by SaintS » Wed May 27, 2020 10:52 am

minimus wrote:
SaintS wrote:
minimus wrote:One scenario that I have been thinking a lot so far:

We get #1 pick. We draft Edwards.
Trade JJ, Edwards, Nowell for Aaron Gordon, ORL FRP (#15)

Why for ORL? They get two talented wings on cheap contracts to balance their roster.
Why for MIN? Get starting PF and 3&D prospect.

Trade BRO pick (#16), Culver, Spellman, Evans for DET FRP (#5)

Why for DET? They get multiple talent to develop next season.
Why for MIN? Move up in draft to get secondary playmaker/bench scorer. Cleanup roster. Create cap room.



Take your idea but make different realisation
I really don't think that we need 3 young talents for the team.


Ooo, I was a big fan of Doumbouya a year ago.

#1 pick+Culver+Jacob Evans+Spellman for #5 + Doumbouya
#16+33+JJ+Nowell for Gordon

Offer Jar Crowder 24mil/4yrs deal

KAT/Reid/Gordon
Gordon/Doumbouya/Vanderbilt
Crowder/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/DLo
DLo/BPA/JMac


Why do you put Culver in trade with Detroit ? you think that 1-st+young fillers are not enough for 5+Doumbouya?
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#445 » by minimus » Wed May 27, 2020 11:15 am

SaintS wrote:
minimus wrote:
SaintS wrote:
Take your idea but make different realisation
I really don't think that we need 3 young talents for the team.


Ooo, I was a big fan of Doumbouya a year ago.

#1 pick+Culver+Jacob Evans+Spellman for #5 + Doumbouya
#16+33+JJ+Nowell for Gordon

Offer Jae Crowder 24mil/4yrs deal

KAT/Reid/Gordon
Gordon/Doumbouya/Vanderbilt
Crowder/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/DLo
DLo/BPA/JMac

Why do you put Culver in trade with Detroit ? you think that 1-st+young fillers are not enough for 5+Doumbouya?


1) Yes, I think DET will say no without Culver
2) I am okay with replacing Culver with a veteran such as Crowder, for the same price. At some point we need to balance young(raw) talented players with experienced veterans
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#446 » by SaintS » Wed May 27, 2020 11:26 am

minimus wrote:
SaintS wrote:
minimus wrote:
Ooo, I was a big fan of Doumbouya a year ago.

#1 pick+Culver+Jacob Evans+Spellman for #5 + Doumbouya
#16+33+JJ+Nowell for Gordon

Offer Jae Crowder 24mil/4yrs deal

KAT/Reid/Gordon
Gordon/Doumbouya/Vanderbilt
Crowder/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/DLo
DLo/BPA/JMac

Why do you put Culver in trade with Detroit ? you think that 1-st+young fillers are not enough for 5+Doumbouya?


1) Yes, I think DET will say no without Culver
2) I am okay with replacing Culver with a veteran such as Crowder, for the same price. At some point we need to balance young(raw) talented players with experienced veterans

Culver < Okogie ?
max i can add Okogie in this deal with Det
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#447 » by shrink » Wed May 27, 2020 1:06 pm

I’d offer Jerami Grant the full MLE and guaranteed him the starter role.

Heck, I’d make an offer for Paul Millsap (35) too. He’s not as good a fit, but somehow he got Jokic to suddenly care about defense - I’d love to take that chance with Towns. Millsap is a good defender underneath, but probably too old to chase players around on the perimeter, but I was surprised that he hit 44% 3P last year.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#448 » by minimus » Wed May 27, 2020 1:19 pm

SaintS wrote:
minimus wrote:
SaintS wrote:


1) Yes, I think DET will say no without Culver
2) I am okay with replacing Culver with a veteran such as Crowder, for the same price. At some point we need to balance young(raw) talented players with experienced veterans

Culver < Okogie ?
max i can add Okogie in this deal with Det


I like both Okogie and Culver. It really depends on who good can become a better shooter. At the moment I'd give Okogie an advantage, just because Jarrett's shot is so broken.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#449 » by minimus » Wed May 27, 2020 1:49 pm

shrink wrote:I’d offer Jerami Grant the full MLE and guaranteed him the starter role.

Heck, I’d make an offer for Paul Millsap (35) too. He’s not as good a fit, but somehow he got Jokic to suddenly care about defense - I’d love to take that chance with Towns. Millsap is a good defender underneath, but probably too old to chase players around on the perimeter, but I was surprised that he hit 44% 3P last year.


Grant is an excellent fit here. For MLE it will be bargain, but DEN traded their FRP pick for him, so I'd doubt that they will simply let him go without offering a big new deal. But if DEN find even better candidate for their staring PF job, then I'd call Grant immediately.

Pair him with another capable defender at PF/SF and we are ready for playoffs.

Let say we trade BRO pick, our SRP and fillers for Aaron Gordon.

KAT-Gordon-Grant-Beasley-DLo is a very capable unit.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#450 » by KGdaBom » Wed May 27, 2020 3:48 pm

minimus wrote:
SaintS wrote:
minimus wrote:
1) Yes, I think DET will say no without Culver
2) I am okay with replacing Culver with a veteran such as Crowder, for the same price. At some point we need to balance young(raw) talented players with experienced veterans

Culver < Okogie ?
max i can add Okogie in this deal with Det


I like both Okogie and Culver. It really depends on who good can become a better shooter. At the moment I'd give Okogie an advantage, just because Jarrett's shot is so broken.

Early in the season Culver was on the top 5 consistently in the NBA.com rookie ladder. He fell apart later. Doumbouya did nothing that impressed me at all. I would be requiring the upgrade draft pick going our way in any Culver/Doumbouya deal.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#451 » by SaintS » Thu May 28, 2020 7:52 am

shrink wrote:I’d offer Jerami Grant the full MLE and guaranteed him the starter role.

Heck, I’d make an offer for Paul Millsap (35) too. He’s not as good a fit, but somehow he got Jokic to suddenly care about defense - I’d love to take that chance with Towns. Millsap is a good defender underneath, but probably too old to chase players around on the perimeter, but I was surprised that he hit 44% 3P last year.

I don't see possibility that Grant are going to сhoose Minnesota in comparison with other teams who can give him a full mle.
And in his position may be will be better to accept PO if he didn't see market for him who can give 11-14 mio per year.

The same situation with Milsap. I think that he prefers to come to the contender. He already earned more than 150 mio and money won't be a pro for him
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#452 » by minimus » Thu May 28, 2020 3:52 pm



An excellent video, it explains why not Dieng, but JJ type of ballhandler, passer is a perfect fit for us at PF. Or why I want another dynamic playmaker/passer in our system. Why we need rim runners/slashers as much as shooters.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#453 » by shrink » Fri May 29, 2020 1:22 am

SaintS wrote:
shrink wrote:I’d offer Jerami Grant the full MLE and guaranteed him the starter role.

Heck, I’d make an offer for Paul Millsap (35) too. He’s not as good a fit, but somehow he got Jokic to suddenly care about defense - I’d love to take that chance with Towns. Millsap is a good defender underneath, but probably too old to chase players around on the perimeter, but I was surprised that he hit 44% 3P last year.

I don't see possibility that Grant are going to сhoose Minnesota in comparison with other teams who can give him a full mle.
And in his position may be will be better to accept PO if he didn't see market for him who can give 11-14 mio per year.

The same situation with Milsap. I think that he prefers to come to the contender. He already earned more than 150 mio and money won't be a pro for him

Jerami Grant could take a one-year deal, to wait for 2022 when everyone has cap space and salaries aren’t constricted by one year of Covid BRE. What he needs though is a place where he can look as good as possible for his next contract. Minnesota not only would guarantee him a starting role, but there is probably not a better front court mate in the league than Towns to maximize him.

As for Milsap, he had a good season, but he’s 35. I agree he may prefer a contender and he may just stay in DEN (especially since he’s getting the best out of Jokic). However, DEN has been one of the most frugal teams in the league, and actually gave up a 1st rounder recently to get under the lux. If they pay Jerami Grant, I don’t think they can pay Milsap. I just don’t know what offers he’s going to get at 35. I’d offer a 1 + 1, with the second year being a team option with some decent guaranteed money on it.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#454 » by Klomp » Fri May 29, 2020 1:30 am

minimus wrote:An excellent video, it explains why not Dieng, but JJ type of ballhandler, passer is a perfect fit for us at PF. Or why I want another dynamic playmaker/passer in our system. Why we need rim runners/slashers as much as shooters.

I actually think maybe our most desired skill at all positions is off-ball cutters. That was one of my favorite things to watch the last month of the season was how guys were actively cutting when playmakers had the ball. Heck I think that's part of what was making McLaughlin look so good was how well he was cutting when Johnson was "running point." First 45 seconds of this video are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.

tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#455 » by minimus » Fri May 29, 2020 8:39 am

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:An excellent video, it explains why not Dieng, but JJ type of ballhandler, passer is a perfect fit for us at PF. Or why I want another dynamic playmaker/passer in our system. Why we need rim runners/slashers as much as shooters.

I actually think maybe our most desired skill at all positions is off-ball cutters. That was one of my favorite things to watch the last month of the season was how guys were actively cutting when playmakers had the ball. Heck I think that's part of what was making McLaughlin look so good was how well he was cutting when Johnson was "running point." First 45 seconds of this video are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.



Our system generates as much good opportunities for slashers/cutters, as wide open 3pt looks. I have high hopes for Layman as integral part of our offense. I still wish we did not trade KBD, he is an excellent cutter as well.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#456 » by Jedzz » Sat May 30, 2020 12:47 pm

minimus wrote:
Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:An excellent video, it explains why not Dieng, but JJ type of ballhandler, passer is a perfect fit for us at PF. Or why I want another dynamic playmaker/passer in our system. Why we need rim runners/slashers as much as shooters.

I actually think maybe our most desired skill at all positions is off-ball cutters. That was one of my favorite things to watch the last month of the season was how guys were actively cutting when playmakers had the ball. Heck I think that's part of what was making McLaughlin look so good was how well he was cutting when Johnson was "running point." First 45 seconds of this video are perfect examples of what I'm talking about.



Our system generates as much good opportunities for slashers/cutters, as wide open 3pt looks. I have high hopes for Layman as integral part of our offense. I still wish we did not trade KBD, he is an excellent cutter as well.

JMac just does it all. He feeds Johnson and it comes back to JMac. Works well with anyone.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#457 » by minimus » Sun Jun 7, 2020 3:09 pm

I really think that MIN is not HOU North, because our team is build around bigman. The closest model I can think about is DAL with "five-out", KP-Doncic combo.

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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#458 » by minimus » Sun Jun 7, 2020 9:34 pm

I have been re-watching first MIN games in 2019-20 season. A few things to mention about these first 18 games:

* - we looked good, we had 10 wins and 8 losses
* - we played pure 1-3-1 scheme. KAT-RoCo-Graham-Wiggins-Teague. Add Layman and we had RoCo-Graham-Wiggins-Layman-Okogie rotation on wings. All of them are either long or athletic. So any speculation of playing second big next to KAT should not be considered. It wont happen
* - Graham played almost 26mpg. His hustle, PoA defense and was a big factor in a few games. He shot awfully bad though. However, his physical profile looks interesting if we think about players we need to compliment 1-3-1. He is 6-5, 223lb, with a 6’9 wingspan
* - Layman was healthy in 14 games of first 18 games. He averaged 10.5ppg, 3rpg, 1apg, 1spg, 0.7bpg in 26mpg. He was a huge factor because of his mobility, and off ball movement. Even if he was only average in terms of shooting accuracy: 46% FG, 35% from 3pt
* - Wiggins was clutch hit winners vs GSW and MIA, he was motivated and healthy. Averaged 25ppg, 5.4rpg, 3.3apg, 1bpg, on 47% FG, 35% from 3pt
* - KBD appeared in 7 games, mostly after Layman was injured. Averaged 9ppg, 2.7rpg, on 56% FG, 46% from 3pt
* - KAT missed two games from 18 games. He averaged 26ppg, 12.6rpg, 4.1apg, on insane 51% FG, 44% from 3pt in 33mpg
* - Vonleh was playing well as defensive minded backup big, he contested shots and used his body well to wall up
* - we got killed on PnR against star players who can use screens to shoot or dribbling to slash: Kyrie 50 points, DLo 52 points
* - we could not control tempo, both Teague and Napier were struggling to shoot at least league average from field, 3pt line
* - when our offense was stagnant Ryan tried Teague-Napier duo to create more ball movement and apply some pressure on opponent defense


Some assumptions I can make based on these notes:
* - we will continue to play 1-3-1 scheme. After trading RoCo, Graham, KBD we will add at least one defensive minded big wing. From Graham example I think we will keep Martin who has exactly same measurements as Graham but is much better shooter and scorer. I can see us drafting guys such as Robert Woodard, Tyler Bey, Patrick Williams and developing them into solid rotational players
* - we need a low profile, backup defensive minded big
* - if we re-sign JMac, we will see a lot of two head PG lineups
* - if we dont add a combo wing who can act as secondary ballhandler (e.g. Aaron Gordon) we will add 3rd ballhandler via draft or FA. Kira Lewis, Tyrese Maxey might have the highest potential as creators around BRO pick
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#459 » by minimus » Mon Jun 8, 2020 12:15 pm




These is one sample of what size/athleticism at wings can give us in defense. In these game we played RoCo at SF and Wiggins at SG. We had elite length. Gibson played at PF. I wonder if we can use Beasley as an elite 6th man, while starting three big/athletic/strong wings next to DLo and KAT.

I am saying big/athletic/strong because I want us to have someone able to use his body in defense, set screens, fight for position downlow, boxing out, slow down rolling big man in PnRs etc. So ideally we need 3-4 wings over 6'5", wingspan >6'9" and weight > 210lbs.
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Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#460 » by minimus » Tue Jun 9, 2020 3:46 pm

minimus wrote:I really think that MIN is not HOU North, because our team is build around bigman. The closest model I can think about is DAL with "five-out", KP-Doncic combo.



It is interesting to compare DAL roster structure win current MIN roster

Tim Hardaway. Overpaid shooter, 18mil and 19 mil.
Dwight Powell. Rim runner, very mobile defender, set good screens. Has 33mil/3yrs left.
Delon Wright. Versatile defender, secondary ballhandler. 9mil and 8.5mil.
Maxi Kleber. Has 25mil/3yrs left.
Set Curry. Elite shooter. Has 25mil/3yrs left.
Dorian Finney-Smith. 3&D. Has 8mil/2yrs left.
Jalen Brunson. Backup PG, third ballhandler in rotation. Rookie contract.
Boban. Backup C, 3.5mil.
WCS. Powell replacement. Rim runner, very mobile defender. 2mil.
Justin Jackson. Cheap 3&D prospect. Rookie deal.

They all fit Doncic and KP age window. I would not say that contracts of Powell, Kleber, Wright and Curry are bargain.No bad wing shooters in rotation. Three ballhandlers Luka, Wright, Brunson A stretch four/five in Kleber. Two 3&D at PF/SF and SG/PG position in Dorian Finney-Smith and Delon Wright. Elite shooter on bench in Curry.

It is interesting to mention that Powell last two seasons has absurd 134-135 ORtg, and 110 DRtg. It explains why DAL pay offensively limited bigman 11mil per year. In five-out system, with elite PnR passers/ballhandlers such athletes are almost cheat code. Delon Wright is next interesting addition. Versatile defender, improving shooter, secondary ballhandler. 9mil per year.

Dorian Finney-Smith used to be a bad shooter: 29%, 30%, 31% and finally 37% from 3pt this season
Maxi Kleber averaged 31%, 35% and finally 37% from 3pt this season
Wright has been very inconsistent from 3pt line, but shoots 38.5 from 3pt this season
Jackson is shooting bad this year 30% ftom 3pt line, but averaged 37% from 3pt last season. He is the only bad shooter in rotation, however he is not starting and mostly plays garbage minutes.

Fun fact I: prior to acquiring Kristaps Porzingis from the New York Knicks on Thursday, the Dallas Mavericks explored trade possibilities for Aaron Gordon.
Fun fact II: Dallas Mavericks were mentioned as three teams who could pursue a trade for Gordon in the offseason.

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