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Constructing the Timberwolves rotation

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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#761 » by Dewey » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:23 am

KGdaBom wrote:This guy is a fantasy basketball analyst, but I think he has some real good objective takes on all the Wolves players for real life basketball. He discusses every Wolves player.


One thing he points out is that Beasley offers pretty much NOTHING other than scoring. I still like Beasley, but being realistic he isn't all that special.

As compared to who... ??? Many NBA players have significant weaknesses
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#762 » by KGdaBom » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:50 am

Dewey wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:This guy is a fantasy basketball analyst, but I think he has some real good objective takes on all the Wolves players for real life basketball. He discusses every Wolves player.


One thing he points out is that Beasley offers pretty much NOTHING other than scoring. I still like Beasley, but being realistic he isn't all that special.

As compared to who... ??? Many NBA players have significant weaknesses

As compared to LeBron James for example.
Seriously he's good. Not special. If it takes more than $14 million to sign him I would be out for sure. I would consider $12 Million about right.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#763 » by Midw35t » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:35 pm

I agree Beasley is about 8-12 mil per for 3 years. I'd like to think he would take that, as he has not been paid yet. He hasn't really proven much other than getting insanely hot for 14 games. If Beasley still wants to prove himself, 1 year 13/14 mil and the Wolves can try to move him at the deadline, extend him, or let him walk with Johnson next year. That would free up enough for a max in 2021, or two really good players.

What are people's thoughts on Christian Wood, Joe Harris and Davis Bertans? All FAs this offseason.

If Rosas is serious about all 3s no D, then DLO, Beasley, Harris, Bertans, and KAT would be hilarious to watch.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#764 » by Klomp » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:52 pm

Midw35t wrote:If Rosas is serious about all 3s no D, then DLO, Beasley, Harris, Bertans, and KAT would be hilarious to watch.

Note: In his time here, Hernangomez hit 42% of 3-pointers....the same percentage of Bertans this season.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#765 » by Midw35t » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:05 pm

Klomp wrote:
Midw35t wrote:If Rosas is serious about all 3s no D, then DLO, Beasley, Harris, Bertans, and KAT would be hilarious to watch.

Note: In his time here, Hernangomez hit 42% of 3-pointers....the same percentage of Bertans this season.


Good point.

Though Davis has proven it for a couple years on high volume. Almost 9 attempts this year, and he has the deep deep range.

An ideal world would be to re-sign Juancho and sign Harris.

I'm not well versed on the contract situation with cap holds and all that. What can we realistically offer a Grant, Harris, Bertans before re-signing Beasley and Juancho? Assuming we dont S&T with Johnson and cant move Johnson elsewhere.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#766 » by minimus » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:42 pm

I have been watching Ben Simmons highlights




If we could get Simmons, skills-wise, even without 3pt shot, he will be an ideal fit here:

* - he would be the most athletic PF we had in MIN in post KG era. It means all sorts of alley-oop dunks, acrobatic finishes at rim. He would be a rim-runner we need
* - he would help us to beat other teams on boards
* - he would form an elite passing trio with KAT, DLo
* - he would be our best defender. strong, mobile, versatile

Unfortunately, his contract (179mil/5yrs + 15% trade kicker) makes every trade scenario with him heading to MIN unrealistic. But then I realised one thing. Ben can help us to identify two archetypes of starting PF who might be an answer to our problems. So desirable skillset of starting MIN PF is following:

"Archetype I": see Giannis, Ben Simmons, Bam Adebayo, Aaron Gordon
* - he is an elite athlete
* - he is versatile defender who can defend C-PF-SF positions
* - he is be able to finish well at rim
* - he is a good passer

"Archetype II": see PJ Tucker
* - he is an solid athlete
* - he is versatile defender who can defend C-PF-SF positions
* - he can hit 3s with league average accuracy 35%

I think for "Archetype I" PF being an elite athlete helps his passing game: short rolls, kick out, dump off passes etc. Being a good finisher at rim also helps passing game. So triangle of essential skills is: elite athlete ===> good finisher at rim ===> good passer

I think for "Archetype II" PF being an elite athlete is not necessary, but he must have toughness to play against bigger opponents. He also must be average 3pt shooter. So triangle of essential skills is: solid athlete + a tough guy + can stretch the floor

As well as we all know, right now, only one of MIN PFs fits these archetypes: JJ. But JJ has an expiring contract and he is a declining 33yo. Juancho is RFA, he is a very good 3pt shooter, but he is a below average athlete, rebounder and defender. Vanderbilt might fit "Archetype I", but he is unproven and has missed a lot of time with injuries. However, recently he got a lot of praises from Rosas, Saunders and MIN media, who underline his work ethic, offseason improvements. Which leads to assumption that our FO sees PF position in similar way. Some top prospects in this draft might be considered as "Archetype I", but they lack some important skills: Okongwu did not play enough as faceup bigman, he has potential as passer and shooter, but it is still unknown whether he can be full time PF. Avdija lacks elite athleticism, his FTs % is very concerning, it looks like he does not have touch. Aaron Gordon fits this archetype ideally, however ORL might ask more than JJ, #17 and MIN rightfully might not be willing to pay more.

As for PF "Archetype II", I cant find a more promising draft prospect than Xavier Tillman. Because he can be considered as kind of hybrid of these two archetypes: he is not an elite athlete, but he is very good at finishing at rim and he is already an elite passer. He is not a league average 3pt shooter, not yet, but his is not a non shooter as well. He might develop at least a consistent corner 3pt shot.

Both archetypes fits well KAT/Reid at C. And would be happy if after draft we will end up with KAT/Reid/"Archetype II"/"Archetype I"/Vanderbilt bigmen rotation. Something like KAT/Reid/Aaron Gordon/Tillman/Vanderbilt offers a lot of potential and address all of our issues at PF position. BUT I would not spend our #1 to acquire these players. Bam Adebayo, Giannis, Draymond Green, Siakam, PJ Tucker, Paul Millsap. They all are not top5 picks.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#767 » by Klomp » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:25 pm

Midw35t wrote:I'm not well versed on the contract situation with cap holds and all that. What can we realistically offer a Grant, Harris, Bertans before re-signing Beasley and Juancho? Assuming we dont S&T with Johnson and cant move Johnson elsewhere.

We'll really only have the MLE for "big" money adds, so around $9-10 million/year.
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Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#768 » by Klomp » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:35 pm

minimus wrote:I have been watching Ben Simmons highlights

Spoiler:



If we could get Simmons, skills-wise, even without 3pt shot, he will be an ideal fit here:

* - he would be the most athletic PF we had in MIN in post KG era. It means all sorts of alley-oop dunks, acrobatic finishes at rim. He would be a rim-runner
* - he would help us to beat other teams on boards
* - he would form an elite passing trio with KAT, DLo
* - he would be our best defender. strong, mobile, versatile

Unfortunately, his contract (179mil/5yrs + 15% trade kicker) makes every trade scenario with him heading to MIN unrealistic. But then I realised one thing. Ben can help us to identify an archetypes of starting PF who might an answer to our problems. So desirable skillset of starting MIN PF is following:

"Archetype I": see Giannis, Ben Simmons, Bam Adebayo, Aaron Gordon
* - he is an elite athlete
* - he is versatile defender who can defend C-PF-SF positions
* - he is be able to finish well at rim
* - he is a good passer

"Archetype II": see PJ Tucker
* - he is an solid athlete
* - he is versatile defender who can defend C-PF-SF positions
* - he can hit 3s with league average accuracy 35%

I think for "Archetype I" PF being an elite athlete helps his passing game: short rolls etc. Being a good finisher at rim also helps passing game. So triangle of essential skills is: elite athlete ===> good finisher at rim ===> good passer

I think for "Archetype II" PF being an elite athlete is not necessary, but he must have toughness to play against bigger opponents. He also must be average 3pt shooter. So triangle of essential skills is: solid athlete + a tough guy + can stretch the floor

As well as we all know, right now, only one of MIN PFs fits these archetypes: JJ. But JJ has an expiring contract and declining 33yo. Juancho is RFA, he is a very good 3pt shooter, but he is a below average athlete, rebounder and defender. Vanderbilt might fit "Archetype I", but he is unproven and has missed a lot of time with injuries. However, recently he got a lot of praises from Rosas, Saunders and MIN media, who underline his work ethic, offseason improvements. Which leads to assumption that our FO sees PF position in similar way. Some top prospects in this draft might be considered as "Archetype I", but they lack some important skills: Okongwu did not play enough as faceup bigman, he has potential as passer and shooter, but it is still unknown whether he can be full time PF. Avdija lacks elite athleticism. Aaron Gordon fits this archetype ideally, however ORL might ask more than JJ, #17 and MIN rightfully might not be willing to pay more.

As for PF "Archetype II", I cant find a more promising draft prospect than Xavier Tillman. Because he can be considered as kind to hybrid of these two archetypes: he is not an elite athlete, but he is very good at finishing at rim and he is already an elite passer. He is not a league average 3pt shooter, not yet, but his is not a non shooter as well. He might develop at least a consistent corner 3pt shot.

Both archetypes fits well KAT/Reid at C. And would be happy if after draft we will end up with KAT/Reid/"Archetype II"/"Archetype I"/Vanderbilt bigmen rotation. Something like KAT/Reid/Aaron Gordon/Tillman/Vanderbilt offers a lot of potential and address all of our issues at PF position. BUT I would not spend our #1 to acquire these players. Bam Adebayo, Giannis, Draymond Green, Siakam, PJ Tucker, Paul Millsap. They all are not top5 picks.

First off, props on the usage of archetypes.....KGdabom will really appreciate it!

One thing I'm reminded of is how Rosas and Saunders have repeatedly talked about player development being so important. You saw the beginnings of it from the Rockets, but they abandoned it once they remembered they're a bigger market and more bigger names will want to play there (see: Howard, Paul, Westbrook, etc). Similar situation in Brooklyn and Philadelphia. These are all places where current Timberwolves front office members came from. I'm not sure they'll have that luxury in Minnesota, so development will probably be a bigger emphasis than quick fixes. They made room for and inserted Reid into the regular rotation before he was probably ready. They traded away veterans in front of Jordan McLaughlin. These aren't flashy moves, but they're the types of moves I think Minnesota will continue to make going forward at least another year.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#769 » by _AIJ_ » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:38 pm

Im really curious about minutes distribution if we draft Ball. J really want him here.


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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#770 » by Klomp » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:53 pm

_AIJ_ wrote:Im really curious about minutes distribution if we draft Ball. J really want him here.

I think it would be pretty seamless. On the average, the backcourt (PG/SG) turns into primarily a three-man rotation of Russell, Beasley and Ball with McLaughlin being the fourth. This has always been my vision for the draft and upcoming roster construction. Unfortunately for some, McLaughlin would be kind of left out as would Nowell, but I'm willing to do it for that kind of talent upgrade.

Okogie and Culver split time at SF.

At PF, with the current roster construction it would probably be Hernangomez and Johnson. Vanderbilt may feel left out, but I could easily envision a midseason trade to open up time for him, like happened for Reid this past season.

Towns and Reid get most of the C minutes.

Obviously, rotations are game and matchup-dependent. Certain matchups or situations could cause the minutes to fluctuate or the rotation to grow or shrink. But that's how I would envision it going on most nights.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#771 » by _AIJ_ » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:59 pm

Klomp wrote:
_AIJ_ wrote:Im really curious about minutes distribution if we draft Ball. J really want him here.

I think it would be pretty seamless. On the average, the backcourt (PG/SG) turns into primarily a three-man rotation of Russell, Beasley and Ball with McLaughlin being the fourth. This has always been my vision for the draft and upcoming roster construction. Unfortunately for some, McLaughlin would be kind of left out as would Nowell, but I'm willing to do it for that kind of talent upgrade.

Okogie and Culver split time at SF.

At PF, with the current roster construction it would probably be Hernangomez and Johnson. Vanderbilt may feel left out, but I could easily envision a midseason trade to open up time for him, like happened for Reid this past season.

Towns and Reid get most of the C minutes.

Obviously, rotations are game and matchup-dependent. Certain matchups or situations could cause the minutes to fluctuate or the rotation to grow or shrink. But that's how I would envision it going on most nights.

Thanks Klomp!


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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#772 » by Klomp » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:11 pm

I might add that I see it pretty similar if Edwards were the pick. Probably a few more minutes for McLaughlin though, as I'm not sure they would hand reserve PG duties to Edwards.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#773 » by Neeva » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:27 pm

[list=][/list]
Klomp wrote:I might add that I see it pretty similar if Edwards were the pick. Probably a few more minutes for McLaughlin though, as I'm not sure they would hand reserve PG duties to Edwards.


What if they sign Campazzo with MLE?
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#774 » by Klomp » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:30 pm

Neeva wrote:
Klomp wrote:I might add that I see it pretty similar if Edwards were the pick. Probably a few more minutes for McLaughlin though, as I'm not sure they would hand reserve PG duties to Edwards.


What if they sign Campazzo with MLE?

I think that would be if they trade the pick.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#775 » by KGdaBom » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:40 pm

Klomp wrote:
minimus wrote:I have been watching Ben Simmons highlights

Spoiler:



If we could get Simmons, skills-wise, even without 3pt shot, he will be an ideal fit here:

* - he would be the most athletic PF we had in MIN in post KG era. It means all sorts of alley-oop dunks, acrobatic finishes at rim. He would be a rim-runner
* - he would help us to beat other teams on boards
* - he would form an elite passing trio with KAT, DLo
* - he would be our best defender. strong, mobile, versatile

Unfortunately, his contract (179mil/5yrs + 15% trade kicker) makes every trade scenario with him heading to MIN unrealistic. But then I realised one thing. Ben can help us to identify an archetypes of starting PF who might an answer to our problems. So desirable skillset of starting MIN PF is following:

"Archetype I": see Giannis, Ben Simmons, Bam Adebayo, Aaron Gordon
* - he is an elite athlete
* - he is versatile defender who can defend C-PF-SF positions
* - he is be able to finish well at rim
* - he is a good passer

"Archetype II": see PJ Tucker
* - he is an solid athlete
* - he is versatile defender who can defend C-PF-SF positions
* - he can hit 3s with league average accuracy 35%

I think for "Archetype I" PF being an elite athlete helps his passing game: short rolls etc. Being a good finisher at rim also helps passing game. So triangle of essential skills is: elite athlete ===> good finisher at rim ===> good passer

I think for "Archetype II" PF being an elite athlete is not necessary, but he must have toughness to play against bigger opponents. He also must be average 3pt shooter. So triangle of essential skills is: solid athlete + a tough guy + can stretch the floor

As well as we all know, right now, only one of MIN PFs fits these archetypes: JJ. But JJ has an expiring contract and declining 33yo. Juancho is RFA, he is a very good 3pt shooter, but he is a below average athlete, rebounder and defender. Vanderbilt might fit "Archetype I", but he is unproven and has missed a lot of time with injuries. However, recently he got a lot of praises from Rosas, Saunders and MIN media, who underline his work ethic, offseason improvements. Which leads to assumption that our FO sees PF position in similar way. Some top prospects in this draft might be considered as "Archetype I", but they lack some important skills: Okongwu did not play enough as faceup bigman, he has potential as passer and shooter, but it is still unknown whether he can be full time PF. Avdija lacks elite athleticism. Aaron Gordon fits this archetype ideally, however ORL might ask more than JJ, #17 and MIN rightfully might not be willing to pay more.

As for PF "Archetype II", I cant find a more promising draft prospect than Xavier Tillman. Because he can be considered as kind to hybrid of these two archetypes: he is not an elite athlete, but he is very good at finishing at rim and he is already an elite passer. He is not a league average 3pt shooter, not yet, but his is not a non shooter as well. He might develop at least a consistent corner 3pt shot.

Both archetypes fits well KAT/Reid at C. And would be happy if after draft we will end up with KAT/Reid/"Archetype II"/"Archetype I"/Vanderbilt bigmen rotation. Something like KAT/Reid/Aaron Gordon/Tillman/Vanderbilt offers a lot of potential and address all of our issues at PF position. BUT I would not spend our #1 to acquire these players. Bam Adebayo, Giannis, Draymond Green, Siakam, PJ Tucker, Paul Millsap. They all are not top5 picks.

First off, props on the usage of archetypes.....KGdabom will really appreciate it!

One thing I'm reminded of is how Rosas and Saunders have repeatedly talked about player development being so important. You saw the beginnings of it from the Rockets, but they abandoned it once they remembered they're a bigger market and more bigger names will want to play there (see: Howard, Paul, Westbrook, etc). Similar situation in Brooklyn and Philadelphia. These are all places where current Timberwolves front office members came from. I'm not sure they'll have that luxury in Minnesota, so development will probably be a bigger emphasis than quick fixes. They made room for and inserted Reid into the regular rotation before he was probably ready. They traded away veterans in front of Jordan McLaughlin. These aren't flashy moves, but they're the types of moves I think Minnesota will continue to make going forward at least another year.

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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#776 » by minimus » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:05 am

Klomp wrote:
Midw35t wrote:I'm not well versed on the contract situation with cap holds and all that. What can we realistically offer a Grant, Harris, Bertans before re-signing Beasley and Juancho? Assuming we dont S&T with Johnson and cant move Johnson elsewhere.

We'll really only have the MLE for "big" money adds, so around $9-10 million/year.


I'd love to get Crowder for full MLE 36mil/4yrs, but in these playoffs he raised his value on FA market. He is tough, versatile defender, can hit open 3s. Low maintenance veteran.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#777 » by minimus » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:08 am

Klomp wrote:One thing I'm reminded of is how Rosas and Saunders have repeatedly talked about player development being so important. You saw the beginnings of it from the Rockets, but they abandoned it once they remembered they're a bigger market and more bigger names will want to play there (see: Howard, Paul, Westbrook, etc). Similar situation in Brooklyn and Philadelphia. These are all places where current Timberwolves front office members came from. I'm not sure they'll have that luxury in Minnesota, so development will probably be a bigger emphasis than quick fixes. They made room for and inserted Reid into the regular rotation before he was probably ready. They traded away veterans in front of Jordan McLaughlin. These aren't flashy moves, but they're the types of moves I think Minnesota will continue to make going forward at least another year.


That is correct. For instance, I have been asking myself whether Vanderbilt's development is something our FO is going to prfioritize this season. Last season we traded Dieng and Saric to make room for Reid and Juancho.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#778 » by Midw35t » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:24 am

minimus wrote:
Klomp wrote:
Midw35t wrote:I'm not well versed on the contract situation with cap holds and all that. What can we realistically offer a Grant, Harris, Bertans before re-signing Beasley and Juancho? Assuming we dont S&T with Johnson and cant move Johnson elsewhere.

We'll really only have the MLE for "big" money adds, so around $9-10 million/year.


I'd love to get Crowder for full MLE 36mil/4yrs, but in these playoffs he raised his value on FA market. He is tough, versatile defender, can hit open 3s. Low maintenance veteran.


I wouldn't hate it. But which Crowder are you getting? Celtics, Cavs, Utah, or Miami?

Do you think Grant is a possibility for full MLE over 4 years?
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#779 » by minimus » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:32 am

Midw35t wrote:
minimus wrote:
Klomp wrote:We'll really only have the MLE for "big" money adds, so around $9-10 million/year.


I'd love to get Crowder for full MLE 36mil/4yrs, but in these playoffs he raised his value on FA market. He is tough, versatile defender, can hit open 3s. Low maintenance veteran.


I wouldn't hate it. But which Crowder are you getting? Celtics, Cavs, Utah, or Miami?

Do you think Grant is a possibility for full MLE over 4 years?


With regard to Crowder inconsistency that's a real concern. That's why we should not pay him more than full MLE. Also, I think MIA system kind of maximized his impact by starting him at PF. In my scenario, in MIN he should play 25-30mpg, leaving healthy minutes to backup young PF such as Vanderbilt.

I like Grant as a rim runner, versatile defender, but his low rebounding rate is a problem. Also he is a very limited player in offense, I would love to have him for full MLE, but I would not pay more.
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Re: Constructing the Timberwolves rotation 

Post#780 » by Klomp » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:27 am

minimus wrote:
Klomp wrote:One thing I'm reminded of is how Rosas and Saunders have repeatedly talked about player development being so important. You saw the beginnings of it from the Rockets, but they abandoned it once they remembered they're a bigger market and more bigger names will want to play there (see: Howard, Paul, Westbrook, etc). Similar situation in Brooklyn and Philadelphia. These are all places where current Timberwolves front office members came from. I'm not sure they'll have that luxury in Minnesota, so development will probably be a bigger emphasis than quick fixes. They made room for and inserted Reid into the regular rotation before he was probably ready. They traded away veterans in front of Jordan McLaughlin. These aren't flashy moves, but they're the types of moves I think Minnesota will continue to make going forward at least another year.

That is correct. For instance, I have been asking myself whether Vanderbilt's development is something our FO is going to prfioritize this season. Last season we traded Dieng and Saric to make room for Reid and Juancho.

It will be important to remember that prioritizing development won't necessarily mean giving him rotational minutes right away. I could easily see a similar season-long trajectory as Reid had this season, starting him in the G League before he works his way into the rotation by midseason.
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