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The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020

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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#21 » by shrink » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:18 pm

1. If you move Towns to PF, he will pick up fouls against quicker opponents. This is part of the reason we run a drop scheme - to keep him on the floor.

2. A stretch-5 is far more valuable offensively than a stretch 4. Be patient until we have the right personnel.

3. Towns would be fine defensively with the right personnel too. If we had another Covington, or a defense-oriented big wing to slide RoCo to his natural SF spot, KAT would be fine as a defensive center.

4. Towns identifies himself as a center, and a “demotion” to PF will make him unhappy. I’m sure other teams that want to get him to ask for a trade will offer him their center spot.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#22 » by DaKid » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:54 pm

shrink wrote:1. If you move Towns to PF, he will pick up fouls against quicker opponents. This is part of the reason we run a drop scheme - to keep him on the floor.

2. A stretch-5 is far more valuable offensively than a stretch 4. Be patient until we have the right personnel.

3. Towns would be find defensively with the right personnel too. If we had another Covington, or a defense-oriented big wing to slide RoCo to his natural SF spot, KAT would be fine as a defensive center.

4. Towns identifies himself as a center, and a “demotion” to PF will make him unhappy. I’m sure other teams that want to get him to ask for a trade will offer him their center spot.


Offensively, this system only works if everyone is a threat from outside. If you can hit 3's, you create spacing. That's why towns and wiggins always seem to have 3 defenders on them. If we could find or develop more 3 point shooters it will make life easier for those 2. We don't need another big out there unless they can hit 3s at a steady clip and keep their defender out of the paint. That is why this towns at center with 3 wings and Wiggins at pg will work.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#23 » by Calinks » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:34 pm

Another question. We know that defense is massively important to being a contending team. So far I think KAT has struggled (though he looked good to start the season) with defense and Wiggins at best has been a solid defender for stretches. If we add Russell and make that our core, how high is the ceiling for a teams defense with a trio of KAT, Wiggins, and Russell? I don't know if you could ever put enough around them to make that a great defensive team.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#24 » by minimus » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:59 pm

Calinks wrote:Another question. We know that defense is massively important to being a contending team. So far I think KAT has struggled (though he looked good to start the season) with defense and Wiggins at best has been a solid defender for stretches. If we add Russell and make that our core, how high is the ceiling for a teams defense with a trio of KAT, Wiggins, and Russell? I don't know if you could ever put enough around them to make that a great defensive team.


The only variant I can think about is this scenario here we can get Aminu/Jerami Grant (40m/3yrs) AND not trading RoCo. Unfortunately Aminu has torn meniscus.

KAT-Grant-RoCo-Wiggins-DLo lineup has good balance between shooting, slashing and defense.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#25 » by Mattya » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:06 am

Calinks wrote:Another question. We know that defense is massively important to being a contending team. So far I think KAT has struggled (though he looked good to start the season) with defense and Wiggins at best has been a solid defender for stretches. If we add Russell and make that our core, how high is the ceiling for a teams defense with a trio of KAT, Wiggins, and Russell? I don't know if you could ever put enough around them to make that a great defensive team.


If Towns doesn't play defense like he did at the start of the season it doesn't matter who we put around them.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#26 » by Crazy-Canuck » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:45 am

shrink wrote:1. If you move Towns to PF, he will pick up fouls against quicker opponents. This is part of the reason we run a drop scheme - to keep him on the floor.

2. A stretch-5 is far more valuable offensively than a stretch 4. Be patient until we have the right personnel.

3. Towns would be fine defensively with the right personnel too. If we had another Covington, or a defense-oriented big wing to slide RoCo to his natural SF spot, KAT would be fine as a defensive center.

4. Towns identifies himself as a center, and a “demotion” to PF will make him unhappy. I’m sure other teams that want to get him to ask for a trade will offer him their center spot.



I dont think we need to move kat to pf. But i do think we need a strong rim protector as the back up to give us some different looks. Dieng is softer than kat, so we just arent physically imposing enough and cant keep our ground.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#27 » by Jedzz » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:53 am

shrink wrote:1. If you move Towns to PF, he will pick up fouls against quicker opponents. This is part of the reason we run a drop scheme - to keep him on the floor.

2. A stretch-5 is far more valuable offensively than a stretch 4. Be patient until we have the right personnel.

3. Towns would be fine defensively with the right personnel too. If we had another Covington, or a defense-oriented big wing to slide RoCo to his natural SF spot, KAT would be fine as a defensive center.

4. Towns identifies himself as a center, and a “demotion” to PF will make him unhappy. I’m sure other teams that want to get him to ask for a trade will offer him their center spot.


Making good points and then I'm not sure about the validity of the last two.

KAT isn't fine as a defensive center with RoCo alongside him now. At least not for more then a quarter a game against any team with real bigs. There might be a difference in our thoughts of 'fine'. But if he's not fine defensively now in games with life sized Centers, with RoCo, then how does sticking another RoCo next to Towns help Towns? Being able to slide RoCo back to SF helps RoCo and our team from the SF spot. But it's not going to help KAT take on the big meanies at Center any differently.

Towns identifies himself as a center. I agree that's clear. I don't know what the point is exactly for him, but I think you are right. Why does Anthony Davis want to be identified as a PF? I've heard it's because he wants to be more of an active offensive threat. Why isn't Anthony Davis fouling out on all the "quicker" opponents around him? He's a heavier load than KAT. What the hell is the difference anyway? They have giant McGee to play next to him in this modern small ball league and they just happen to lead the West at 23-3. But we are just so much smarter of a franchise and will will assume the small ball movement of the 3 good teams that did so the past few years. Not because it's right for our roster, but because we are copying another teams system with different players and because our Maxed Kat might have his feelings hurt if we bring in a bigger dude to play next to him. Big shoes no happy now. :(
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#28 » by Klomp » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:19 am

Jedzz wrote:But if he's not fine defensively now in games with life sized Centers, with RoCo, then how does sticking another RoCo next to Towns help Towns? Being able to slide RoCo back to SF helps RoCo and our team from the SF spot. But it's not going to help KAT take on the big meanies at Center any differently.

Because defense is a five-man game, not a one-man game. Everybody has to do their jobs, not just Towns.

While the dropping big is the main cog which this scheme is centered on, the guard whom is being screened also has an important job: bust his ass to get over that screen and reconnect with his man asap.

Fundamentally, the drop scheme is meant to contain the pick and roll with only two players. However should there be a defensive mistake, it is the job of the weakside defender to come over and ‘tag’ the roller. Tag can mean an assortment of things but they all encompass preventing that rolling big man from having a clean catch and finish to end his roll to the basket.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/d7e8vg/nba_defense_101_pick_and_roll_drop_coverage_a/

Everyone points to Towns as the reason for the struggles, but it's not just him. HE NEEDS HELP! And just like on offense, there's a strong side and a weak side to a defense. If Covington is on the wrong side of the court, he's not available to be the weakside defender.

More defenders is not a bad thing. More playmakers is not a bad thing. More shooters is not a bad thing. I don't understand why people get the idea that because we already have one player who can do something that we don't need a second. People used it against getting Rubio some help. People use it against giving Wiggins some help on offense. Now people use it against giving Covington help on defense.

How would Miami have been if they hadn't gone after LeBron because they already had Wade to be a scorer and playmaker? How would San Antonio have been if they hadn't gone after Duncan because they already had Robinson to be a scorer and rebounder? How would the Clippers be if they hadn't gone after Kawhi because they already had George?
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#29 » by Jedzz » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:07 am

Klomp wrote:
Jedzz wrote:But if he's not fine defensively now in games with life sized Centers, with RoCo, then how does sticking another RoCo next to Towns help Towns? Being able to slide RoCo back to SF helps RoCo and our team from the SF spot. But it's not going to help KAT take on the big meanies at Center any differently.

Because defense is a five-man game, not a one-man game. Everybody has to do their jobs, not just Towns.

While the dropping big is the main cog which this scheme is centered on, the guard whom is being screened also has an important job: bust his ass to get over that screen and reconnect with his man asap.

Fundamentally, the drop scheme is meant to contain the pick and roll with only two players. However should there be a defensive mistake, it is the job of the weakside defender to come over and ‘tag’ the roller. Tag can mean an assortment of things but they all encompass preventing that rolling big man from having a clean catch and finish to end his roll to the basket.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/d7e8vg/nba_defense_101_pick_and_roll_drop_coverage_a/

Everyone points to Towns as the reason for the struggles, but it's not just him. HE NEEDS HELP! And just like on offense, there's a strong side and a weak side to a defense. If Covington is on the wrong side of the court, he's not available to be the weakside defender.

More defenders is not a bad thing. More playmakers is not a bad thing. More shooters is not a bad thing. I don't understand why people get the idea that because we already have one player who can do something that we don't need a second. People used it against getting Rubio some help. People use it against giving Wiggins some help on offense. Now people use it against giving Covington help on defense.

How would Miami have been if they hadn't gone after LeBron because they already had Wade to be a scorer and playmaker? How would San Antonio have been if they hadn't gone after Duncan because they already had Robinson to be a scorer and rebounder? How would the Clippers be if they hadn't gone after Kawhi because they already had George?


While I like the depth of your explanation here, it's worth a +1 to me, I don't think you read my suggestion/question on the point at all, or as it was intended anyway, or what the point of the convo was. I don't have a problem with "adding another defender" "just like Covington" per say. Any team might be lucky to 3 of him. It just doesn't fix Town's weakness handling big centers that keeps coming up. As has been pointed out by shrink, Towns wants to be the center. With that comes some responsibilities for him.

First,
I'm going to agree to the five man defense claim and more defenders helps them all.

Second,
Towns weaknesses against big centers doesn't only appear in pick n roll situations.

Third,
In Pick n Roll situations the rolling man is still part of his responsibilities. One entire point of the "drop" positioning is to be able to cut off that rolling big man's lane. Even if the defensive guard get's pinched right out of the play and would be seen as the guard's error in defense, that just means Towns' responsibilities now include both the onball guard and the rolling big. The drop is meant to allow for this possible defense. This is what a good Center is for. To suggest that Covington should always be required to act as weakside defender in all or most Pick n Roll instances in order for us to be successful is pretty much admitting that our Center can't handle the Center's drop role enough.

/ I've seen him biting and leaping out towards guards, this leaves the rolling big open in error. Or he stays in front of the big fine but the rolling big just goes over or through him time and again as he backs down to them. It's on him and his technique to attempt to stop them without fouling. Either he can defend players of that size or he can't at the moment. If his technique or will power isn't capable, he's got to let them through to avoid foul trouble. I think this is what we see occuring. Maybe in these games we let this Big mean Big get his, and focus on stopping everyone else. Maybe that's what they already decided to do.

I don't see how claiming another RoCo should be the solution to your Center being a weakness in the pick n roll defense or any other form of Center defense. This is his chosen position and that was the topic at hand you jumped into. The topic of whether or not we could help his game by moving him out of Center. My point was that right now, even with Covington's help, they aren't stopping these Bigs like they should with the two of them.

The harsh reality is that KAT has shown an ability to stand up and defend against some of these bigs at times, just not all of them. He's shown entire games of defense before. Then he's also shown entire games or three quarters of not quite. After starting this season out great playing high effort D, one game against embiid frustrated him so much it got into his head and was over. Was Covington supposed to successfully take on Embiid? Would a second Covington do any different? Turns out that Embiid is just a better Center in this part of the game and Towns has to come to terms with that. It doesn't appear that he really has yet. Instead, it seems like he's just kind of given up on the whole major defensive effort thing for now. We saw it again for one quarter in the last game. We've come full circle and back to the occasional defense effort KAT. Maybe we will only really see it in the 4th when he's got enough fouls to give yet and the game is on the line so that he's no longer concerned about his sloppy technique on defense and fouls. It's do or die time.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#30 » by minimus » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:34 am

Jedzz wrote:It's do or die time.


Both KAT and Wiggins are 24yrs old. Culver, Okogie, KBD, Nowell, Reid even less.
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Re: The 

Post#31 » by Jedzz » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:36 pm

minimus wrote:
Jedzz wrote:It's do or die time.


Both KAT and Wiggins are 24yrs old. Culver, Okogie, KBD, Nowell, Reid even less.

I'm not sure if this was suppose to be a joke or just a misunderstanding of an expression.

4th quarter, game win/loss is now on the line = risk the fouls now because it's that time...do or die time. It doesn't matter if you foul out anymore. I would say "let it all hang out" but I don't want to create another misunderstanding.

I bring it up because what we saw in the last game appears to maybe be what happened. Play super soft to attempt to avoid fouls for three quarters and then really try to win in the fourth. Going gangbusters on defense early might get him in foul trouble if he's got sloppy technique and can't handle the bigs.

No, I'm not suggesting the whole team go bust up a gang either.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#32 » by theGreatRC » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:47 am

Most of us here have seen every game that KAT has played. He is as dominant as he wants to be, but he seems more than willing to defer to his teammates. Not that that's a bad thing because that could mean he just wants to win and not have to be "the guy" to get the W, but with this roster, we need him to be THE guy. He disappears a lot (Not counting this Clippers game) and maybe this has to do with his teammates not getting him the ball, but I think to maximize KAT, we need a dog in big moments that wants to take all the big shots, someone like a Damian Lillard type.

Dame has been my favorite PG for years because he has stones as big as boulders in big moments. A true leader that leads by example and won't talk down on teammates. There is most likely no way to get a guy like him, but Booker is another guy that's a dog that wants all the big shots. Wiggins has shown this year that he's not afraid to be that guy, unfortunately his personality allows him to also be a guy that is willing to disappear into the team.

That's why I want DLO here so bad, or even a guy like Zach. Yes, their defense is trash, but they have that mentality of "Give me the ball and I will get us a bucket", KAT can be your best player, but we need a guard that can be our closer and leader in 4th quarters.

Maybe that guy will be in the draft, maybe we trade for him, all I know is Rosas needs to pair KAT & Wiggs up with another guard willing to be the timely bucket getting when we can't get a hoop
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#33 » by shrink » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:59 am

Some of these KAT posts really shock me. Other teams crowd Towns underneath because it’s the smart thing to do, since we don’t have great personnel around him. He passes out of these double-teams, which is the right basketball play. Last week, he finished four straight games with 7 or more assists. We want him to do that, so he develops the right habits for when we do have the right talent. Sure, with the bad shooters we have around him at the moment, he may be more efficient double-covered than his open teammate, but we want wins in the future, with a roster filled with players that fit Saunders system. We don’t want him “taking over games” in December 2019 — we want him to develop into an even better player, so the team is winning playoff series in 2021.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#34 » by Crazy-Canuck » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:17 am

theGreatRC wrote:Most of us here have seen every game that KAT has played. He is as dominant as he wants to be, but he seems more than willing to defer to his teammates. Not that that's a bad thing because that could mean he just wants to win and not have to be "the guy" to get the W, but with this roster, we need him to be THE guy. He disappears a lot (Not counting this Clippers game) and maybe this has to do with his teammates not getting him the ball, but I think to maximize KAT, we need a dog in big moments that wants to take all the big shots, someone like a Damian Lillard type.

Dame has been my favorite PG for years because he has stones as big as boulders in big moments. A true leader that leads by example and won't talk down on teammates. There is most likely no way to get a guy like him, but Booker is another guy that's a dog that wants all the big shots. Wiggins has shown this year that he's not afraid to be that guy, unfortunately his personality allows him to also be a guy that is willing to disappear into the team.

That's why I want DLO here so bad, or even a guy like Zach. Yes, their defense is trash, but they have that mentality of "Give me the ball and I will get us a bucket", KAT can be your best player, but we need a guard that can be our closer and leader in 4th quarters.

Maybe that guy will be in the draft, maybe we trade for him, all I know is Rosas needs to pair KAT & Wiggs up with another guard willing to be the timely bucket getting when we can't get a hoop



Kat needs more shots, yes. But, hes also getting alot more touches and alot more assists. The problem is that outside of the passes to wiggs, most of those passes result in bricks. Late game, its just simply harder for big men to get the looks they need, but not impossible.

Wiggs needs to help kat a little more by learning to make better pocket passes and throwing lobs. I think wiggs is our best post entry passer and we often get good looks from that set, but Saunders doesnt like to use it more than 2 or 3 times a game. You know who's one of the best clutch scorers in the league this year? Its wiggins. Dlo's numbers are padded in the clutch because of his limited minutes and Lavine is about the last player you want with the ball late in games.

I think we have our 2 guys to close games, our problem is getting there. We need to see more reps for the kat/wiggs 2 man game.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#35 » by john2jer » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:00 pm

How about some under the radar guys beyond just the obvious DLo, Booker, or whichever all star level guy to target?
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#36 » by shrink » Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:09 pm

I was surprised to see Jeff Teague’s 3P% is up to 38.2 .. but he shoots them so infrequently, he only averages one per game. KBD (47.2%) gets off more attempts (2.8 vs 2.6) in far less court time (18 min vs 29). Teague is still shooting three pointers at the same frequency that he always had, so to me, this means that despite the early promises to change, Teague is not buying into Saunders’ offense and needs to be traded. He is not a bad player (just hard to watch), so he could help on another team. His expiring deal might even be a small asset if a team wants to get off some money for next year, though few teams are targeting the weak 2020 free agency.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#37 » by shrink » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:16 pm

Jeff Teague is still a very good PG. He’s hard for fans to watch at times, but as we have seen in recent games, when he is allowed to play his way, he’s effective.

The problem is “his way” is not the Rosasian way. Teague tried at the beginning of the season to align his play more with the game plan (development), but he is an unwilling three point shooter, and he wants to dribble the air out of the ball rather than pass it along quickly. He is probably the third or fourth best player on the team, but his successes lately have come at the expense of using games to help future pieces practice Rosas’ system.

With him, we are damned if we do (lose games because he plays Rosasian) and damned if we don’t (waste games we could be developing). We don’t have an answer for the PG position, but Teague may be causing more harm than helping the team - even if we get a few more wins.

Our best hope is that a playoff level team has an injury at PG, and is willing to trade for Teague. Again, he is not a bad player. I don’t want to see us simply buy him out, but we need to find a trade for him as soon as possible.
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#38 » by Jedzz » Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:51 am

low game IQ, defensive energizer bunnies, bricklayers. 2020 Rosasion?
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#39 » by vagelis » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:25 am

There is no roster right now.
It is Wiggins, Towns and nothing else.
It was crazy to leave Rose go without making him an offer.
It will be difficult to reconstruct the roster via trades. We have low value players in the roster
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Re: The "Rosasian Roster" in 2020 

Post#40 » by Klomp » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:10 am

vagelis wrote:There is no roster right now.
It is Wiggins, Towns and nothing else.

I actually think this is a strong piece of information that Wolves fans should remember right now.

I think some people are panicking because they think this is what we'll be for the next 5-10 years. It's not. Change is coming. I don't believe any player beyond Towns and Wiggins is viewed as a definite core essential piece of this franchise long-term.

In the short-term, that creates a bit of a frustrating situation in front of us right now. It seems like we have no hope because we have no one beyond those two. But the key is that it creates a lot of fluidity in the roster to where change can happen quickly. I don't think the team is afraid to trade Culver. I don't think the team is afraid to trade Covington. If they were viewed as core pieces, we might not be willing to strike when the iron's hot on a potential deal. But right now, I think business is open on anyone not named Towns and Wiggins. Obviously the return value has to be right in any trade, but I don't think they feel so tied to a player to where they would hesitate to make a good deal.
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