Is Saunders really a bad head coach?

[YaleS]

This is development year for Saunders as well. Right now he is clearly below NBA standards in terms of rotations, in game decisions, game plan changes. But as development coach he better than I expected. I believe that his weaknesses can be improved with experience.

I see what you are saying, but rotations, in game decisions and game plan changes are basically most of what a coach`s job is, so it`s a tough sell he`ll eventually get good at his job. Starting the season strong and going 5-25 after shows me that it was very easy for other organizations to make adjustments and Ryan had no answers. As far as development goes, we currently run a stripped-down, pick up style modern offense, which doesn`t fit our roster. The offense was set in stone by Rossas and I`m not sure Ryan deserves credit or blame for that, but I`m left uninspired by the lack of creativity, which I believe is coach`s job.
We all give Ryan credit for a month and a half of decent Wiggins, but we don`t mention KAT`s constant flailing, complaining, defense and even rebounding, which all got a lot worse this year.

[minimus]

This is development year for Saunders as well. Right now he is clearly below NBA standards in terms of rotations, in-game decisions, game plan changes. But as development coach he better than I expected. I believe that his weaknesses can be improved with experience.

I see what you are saying, but rotations, in-game decisions, and game plan changes are basically most of what a coach`s job is, so it`s a tough sell he`ll eventually get good at his job. Starting the season strong and going 5-25 after shows me that it was very easy for other organizations to make adjustments and Ryan had no answers. As far as development goes, we currently run a stripped-down, pick up style modern offense, which doesn`t fit our roster. The offense was set in stone by Rossas and I`m not sure Ryan deserves credit or blame for that, but I`m left uninspired by the lack of creativity, which I believe is coach`s job.
We all give Ryan credit for a month and a half of decent Wiggins, but we don`t mention KAT`s constant flailing, complaining, defense and even rebounding, which all got a lot worse this year.

I agree with you, but let's just open any Thibs related thread from two years ago and we can see that we have almost the same complaints about HC. Lack of creativity, rotations, in-game decisions and game plan changes. And basically play same roster minus all veterans from Thibs era: Butler, Rose, Gibson, JC. We also lost Bjelica, Tyus who are good role players. Right now it is hard for me to justify these losses, but in wide view, I can see us doing much better when:
1) our young players can actually execute both in offense and defense. Martin, Nowell, Okogie, KBD, Culver are still learning
2) we sign veterans or at least bring back Napier
3) we find players who are better than current players for 1-3-1 system. Mainly ballhandler and big combo forward who can play at PF.

P.S. Lack of toughness from KAT is probably the most disappointing thing about this season. First Embiid, then CP3... I wish after Kobe death, KG and Taylor can work together again. We need KG here to work with the team.

[YaleS]

This is development year for Saunders as well. Right now he is clearly below NBA standards in terms of rotations, in-game decisions, game plan changes. But as development coach he better than I expected. I believe that his weaknesses can be improved with experience.

I see what you are saying, but rotations, in-game decisions, and game plan changes are basically most of what a coach`s job is, so it`s a tough sell he`ll eventually get good at his job. Starting the season strong and going 5-25 after shows me that it was very easy for other organizations to make adjustments and Ryan had no answers. As far as development goes, we currently run a stripped-down, pick up style modern offense, which doesn`t fit our roster. The offense was set in stone by Rossas and I`m not sure Ryan deserves credit or blame for that, but I`m left uninspired by the lack of creativity, which I believe is coach`s job.
We all give Ryan credit for a month and a half of decent Wiggins, but we don`t mention KAT`s constant flailing, complaining, defense and even rebounding, which all got a lot worse this year.

I agree with you, but let's just open any Thibs related thread from two years ago and we can see that we have almost the same complaints about HC. Lack of creativity, rotations, in-game decisions and game plan changes. And basically play same roster minus all veterans from Thibs era: Butler, Rose, Gibson, JC. We also lost Bjelica, Tyus who are good role players. Right now it is hard for me to justify these losses, but in wide view, I can see us doing much better when:
1) our young players can actually execute both in offense and defense. Martin, Nowell, Okogie, KBD, Culver are still learning
2) we sign veterans or at least bring back Napier
3) we find players who are better than current players for 1-3-1 system. Mainly ballhandler and big combo forward who can play at PF.

P.S. Lack of toughness from KAT is probably the most disappointing thing about this season. First Embiid, then CP3... I wish after Kobe death, KG and Taylor can work together again. We need KG here to work with the team.

I`m 100% with you on KAT. At this point I start to question his character, for example 2 games ago he took a decent fall (kind of a fall Okogie takes on every 2nd drive he makes, because he`s 2 years from being 2 years away on that side of the floor) and KAT milked that **** for all it`s worth. Those are things that upcoming superstars just don`t do. Worse he has had a ton of close games, where he rightfully feels it`s time to exploit the inside on post ups and gets denied by the defender when it matters the most. We all know how well he played vs HOU in the playoffs. All that being said, he`s still our best player head and shoulders and that ain`t great, is it
And yes, we don`t have a good roster as it is. We are not 5-25 just because of Saunders, we have earned them as a team
About the points you listed
1) it`s true for all young players
2) I don`t see Napier (who I like as a back up) as a difference-maker and
3) Are you keeping RoCo in this scenario? I agree he`s better at the 3, but I`m not sure we will hold on to him.

[Dewey]

We don’t even have a #1 guy yet ... kind of irrelevant until we do. He had a hand in the loss, but it’s still a players game and the players failed in the end

[minimus]

2) I don`t see Napier (who I like as a back up) as a difference-maker and
3) Are you keeping RoCo in this scenario? I agree he`s better at the 3, but I`m not sure we will hold on to him.

2) Napier is one of the veterans who showed heart. This alone makes him worth re-signing. In January he averages 11ppg, 4rpg, 6apg in 28mpg on 49%FG, 40% 3FG. He can stabilize bench, which is a requirement for season-long consistency.

3) I'd like to keep RoCo, but I view him as an asset. If Rosas can find better value/fit by trading RoCo I'd okay with this. For instance, I'd trade RoCo and Bell for Wright, Finney-Smith and FRP.

[Worm Guts]

It seems like it. This season appears to be an unmitigated disaster.

[Jedzz]

We don’t even have a #1 guy yet ... kind of irrelevant until we do. He had a hand in the loss, but it’s still a players game and the players failed in the end

As a coach he had a hand in this obviously. But people seemed to have really come at him on this one when I don't see the major screwups. Allowing bad runs without using your timeouts to stop them? Maybe he could better time those. Better rotations? Probably somehow, maybe.

But I want to here some details of how some claim he screwed up so badly in the final few minutes. Looking at the box now:

* I see Reid got 1 minute of game time and ended up -6. So that one minute didn't go well, but it also wasn't a loss of 13 or 27 points during that time.
* Vonleh didn't even register a full minute and ended -2. That was the stint during the Fox FT shots.
* Gorgui got a whole 7 minutes and ended up +9. So his minutes didn't cause it.

All the starters were positive except for Towns who was likely on the floor for a portion of the lead evaporation. Playing Towns through injury (some kind of wrist thing) when he was visibly playing up the pain of it could be a major fault. Towns hasn't grown up yet. In one of the prior two games he's was stomping on the floor like a child when Ryan tried to take him off the floor after a couple quick fouls. Imagine Ryan's desire to take him out of this one when he was dangling his left arm in pain, ready to see his star player pout again if he does.

The one bench player with substantial minutes that really shows a big negative was KBD with -27 in 24 minutes. Something wasn't working with him and the rotations he was in on. Can't say that I saw what his problem was. Probably during a portion of the 4th Q I missed.

Also, Josh Okogie (-17) 26 mins. He seems to forever get noticed for his good hussle plays. But he's so wild and sloppy still. No steals or blocks coming out of all the energy this game, no shooting ability shown (1-7 FG). About the only thing he did with his hussle this game was draw foul shots(made 62% FT), and maybe saved possession on two balls going out of bounds. His play just isn't worth 26 mins.

[Dewey]

We don’t even have a #1 guy yet ... kind of irrelevant until we do. He had a hand in the loss, but it’s still a players game and the players failed in the end

As a coach he had a hand in this obviously. But people seemed to have really come at him on this one when I don't see the major screwups. Allowing bad runs without using your timeouts to stop them? Maybe he could better time those. Better rotations? Probably somehow, maybe.

But I want to here some details of how some claim he screwed up so badly in the final few minutes. Looking at the box now:

* I see Reid got 1 minute of game time and ended up -6. So that one minute didn't go well, but it also wasn't a loss of 13 or 27 points during that time.
* Vonleh didn't even register a full minute and ended -2. That was the stint during the Fox FT shots.
* Gorgui got a whole 7 minutes and ended up +9. So his minutes didn't cause it.

All the starters were positive except for Towns who was likely on the floor for a portion of the lead evaporation. Playing Towns through injury (some kind of wrist thing) when he was visibly playing up the pain of it (begging to be taken out?), could be a major fault. Towns hasn't grown up yet. In one of the prior two games he's was stomping on the floor like a child when Ryan tried to take him off the floor after a couple quick fouls. Imagine Ryan's desire to take him out of this one when he was dangling his left arm in pain, ready to see his star player pout again if he does.

The one bench player with substantial minutes that really shows a big negative was KBD with -27 in 24 minutes. Something wasn't working with him and the rotations he was in on.

Also, Josh Okogie (-17) 26 mins. He seems to forever get noticed for his good hussle plays. But he's so wild and sloppy still. No steals or blocks coming out of all the energy this game, no shooting ability shown (1-7 FG). About the only thing he did with his hussle this game was draw foul shots(made 62% FT), and maybe saved possession on two balls going out of bounds. His play just isn't worth 26 mins.

that seems to be a fair assessment, but still, why were we not denying the ball to Buddy regardless who's on the floor? it really should not have mattered for the most part. Perfect time for Wiggins to step up say "Hey, I got'em" ... honestly, I dont know who was guarding him, but I dont believe it was him and it shoulda been. Shoulda coulda woulda ... all hindsight.

KBD is a mere 2nd/3rd stringer with some versatility that can handle a limited role ... He is simply overplayed. Okogie is a gamer/loose cannon who has his moments ... hard to know where to go with him.

[Jedzz]

We don’t even have a #1 guy yet ... kind of irrelevant until we do. He had a hand in the loss, but it’s still a players game and the players failed in the end

As a coach he had a hand in this obviously. But people seemed to have really come at him on this one when I don't see the major screwups. Allowing bad runs without using your timeouts to stop them? Maybe he could better time those. Better rotations? Probably somehow, maybe.

But I want to here some details of how some claim he screwed up so badly in the final few minutes. Looking at the box now:

* I see Reid got 1 minute of game time and ended up -6. So that one minute didn't go well, but it also wasn't a loss of 13 or 27 points during that time.
* Vonleh didn't even register a full minute and ended -2. That was the stint during the Fox FT shots.
* Gorgui got a whole 7 minutes and ended up +9. So his minutes didn't cause it.

All the starters were positive except for Towns who was likely on the floor for a portion of the lead evaporation. Playing Towns through injury (some kind of wrist thing) when he was visibly playing up the pain of it (begging to be taken out?), could be a major fault. Towns hasn't grown up yet. In one of the prior two games he's was stomping on the floor like a child when Ryan tried to take him off the floor after a couple quick fouls. Imagine Ryan's desire to take him out of this one when he was dangling his left arm in pain, ready to see his star player pout again if he does.

The one bench player with substantial minutes that really shows a big negative was KBD with -27 in 24 minutes. Something wasn't working with him and the rotations he was in on.

Also, Josh Okogie (-17) 26 mins. He seems to forever get noticed for his good hussle plays. But he's so wild and sloppy still. No steals or blocks coming out of all the energy this game, no shooting ability shown (1-7 FG). About the only thing he did with his hussle this game was draw foul shots(made 62% FT), and maybe saved possession on two balls going out of bounds. His play just isn't worth 26 mins.

that seems to be a fair assessment, but still, why were we not denying the ball to Buddy regardless who's on the floor? it really should not have mattered for the most part. Perfect time for Wiggins to step up say "Hey, I got'em" ... honestly, I dont know who was guarding him, but I dont believe it was him and it shoulda been. Shoulda coulda woulda ... all hindsight.

KBD is a mere 2nd/3rd stringer with some versatility that can handle a limited role ... He is simply overplayed. Okogie is a gamer/loose cannon who has his moments ... hard to know where to go with him.

100% agree Dewey, no one seemed willing or capable of stopping that comeback. Not starters, no one.

[Macwolf527]

Saunders is very young and inexperienced. He will learn this year and he probably will be a lot better the next year.
He tries to keep all the players happy and maybe that was the reason for the tonight loss.
He needs to stick with the players who can win games and give them more responsibilities. Wiggins and Towns are the guys that have to take the load and it seems that we are going again in that way, something that is good in my opinion.

Everybody should be taking some responsibility for this loss and the current losing streak. If that’s taking place behind closed doors, I can live with losing for a moment. We all know this team is no where near a final result and I think everyone has lesson’s to learn.

1. Saunders needs experience
2. Wiggins needs consistency
3. Towns must learn to trust his teammates defensively.

Etc, etc on down the roster. If losing and losing badly doesn’t lead to these lessons being learned, then you know who to get rid of. The cream will rise to the top.

[KGdaBom]

The excuse making for Saunders is unreal. He's the son of the one coach we had prior success with and according to most a likable guy so people let his horrible record slide. His record last season was horrible and it's beyond horrible this year. He has no experience and no skill with offense or defense. People say the players like him, but they don't go to war for him. Thing is Rosas is responsible for him and they both just signed contracts. To get rid of both would be hard to swallow, but might be the best move.

[Killboard]

He didn't have enough good record as assistant to be a head coach, but I was fine with the opportunity since the roster know him very well. It does not seems to matter standing wise. I'm not sure he is as bad as the underperforming suggest, but clearly is not special neither.
I don't think would be smart to keep him in that position next season. You have to keep running the treadmill for a special one.

[Dalvin]

I'd still prefer him over Rambis any day

[Dewey]

The excuse making for Saunders is unreal. He's the son of the one coach we had prior success with and according to most a likable guy so people let his horrible record slide. His record last season was horrible and it's beyond horrible this year. He has no experience and no skill with offense or defense. People say the players like him, but they don't go to war for him. Thing is Rosas is responsible for him and they both just signed contracts. To get rid of both would be hard to swallow, but might be the best move.

It’s a players game as Jordan always said ... players seize the moments or they do not. I’m not remotely concerned with the coaching until we establish an NBA roster. As is ... Phil Jackson would run from this mess

[LibertyPrime]

He needs to shelve "the system" until Rosas is able to provide the personnel that can actually run that system.

[Jedzz]

He needs to shelve "the system" until Rosas is able to provide the personnel that can actually run that system.

Though probably true, they are maybe just one true shooting talent away from making it work. Aside from the issue of having soft leaders that sway up and down extremes on a whim of course. But finding and playing one good shooter they can trust more seems to me the key right now. I just can't believe they are doing all that is possible to find one. Find one and move hell or highwater to make room for his minutes.

[PharmD]

Hard to say because the roster is so bad.

[Jedzz]

Hard to say because the roster is so bad.

I've said a couple times we should let Iowa play the home games here.

[KGdaBom]

The excuse making for Saunders is unreal. He's the son of the one coach we had prior success with and according to most a likable guy so people let his horrible record slide. His record last season was horrible and it's beyond horrible this year. He has no experience and no skill with offense or defense. People say the players like him, but they don't go to war for him. Thing is Rosas is responsible for him and they both just signed contracts. To get rid of both would be hard to swallow, but might be the best move.

It’s a players game as Jordan always said ... players seize the moments or they do not. I’m not remotely concerned with the coaching until we establish an NBA roster. As is ... Phil Jackson would run from this mess

IMO it's just more excuses.

[Dewey]

The excuse making for Saunders is unreal. He's the son of the one coach we had prior success with and according to most a likable guy so people let his horrible record slide. His record last season was horrible and it's beyond horrible this year. He has no experience and no skill with offense or defense. People say the players like him, but they don't go to war for him. Thing is Rosas is responsible for him and they both just signed contracts. To get rid of both would be hard to swallow, but might be the best move.

It’s a players game as Jordan always said ... players seize the moments or they do not. I’m not remotely concerned with the coaching until we establish an NBA roster. As is ... Phil Jackson would run from this mess

IMO it's just more excuses.

Is this like, "according to sources" ... ???

To me it sounds like, "according to KGDaBom" ...

We do know one thing, Saunders understands he has made mistakes and is part of the problem ... I'd assume every person in the organization feels the same. Rosas has been around and certainly had his opportunity to select another Head Coach. So scapegoat all you want, but they are not going anywhere.