Moves to make the Wolves a playoff team next season

[minimus]

I'm i the only one who likes Okogie over Culver? I don't know when and how much we should pay him after his rookie deal.

[jpatrick]

I'm i the only one who likes Okogie over Culver? I don't know when and how much we should pay him after his rookie deal.

I think they’re about equal. Both will have to improve if they want to be more than bit pieces in the future, especially regarding shooting.

I know his shot is pretty broke this year, but I still have more faith in Culver. Maybe it’s misplaced because he was a mid-lotto pick, maybe it’s just blind hope. Whoever gets up to 35-36% from three gets minutes.

[TheProdigy]

I'm i the only one who likes Okogie over Culver? I don't know when and how much we should pay him after his rookie deal.

I'm team Okogie myself. Culver is a better ball handler and distributor but I prefer Okogie's defense, athleticism, and motor. Okogie is only about a half year older than Culver too.

Plus I think Okogie has more potential as a shooter. As a rookie, Okogie was at 27.9% on 3s, and 72.8% on fts. Culver is at 27.8% on 3s, and 46.5 on fts. Okogie has much better form on his shot IMO.

[Jedzz]

If the team makes a trade for Aaron Gordon, I think we all agree it will only be because they see him as a major piece. He costs a lot of money that takes another chunk out of our payroll, and ORL will demand assets. If he is a major piece, playing a lot of minutes, his poor three point shooting is going to hurt Rosas’ 5-out system. We can debate how badly, but I personally don’t think that Rosas is going to make that big of an investment on a sub 30% three point shooter this year.

Can I point out that you also didn't think Rosas would make an investment in Russell because he shoots too much in the midrange and as such is a bad fit for the system?

He also traded Saric to move up for Culver and has commited to Okogie who also struggles mightly. I think he values shooting but is not the only thing he cares about.

Still, I understand that Gordon is (slightly IMO) overpaid and isn't a 3pt shooter. But that's actually a good argument to be targeting him. I dont want to lose valuable assets overspending for a player in a career year. The last season he and Isaac made the Magic a terrific defensive team covering up Vucevic and Fournier. And if he improves 2 or 3% from 3 he becomes an average 3pt shooter.

Can I ask who other PF candidates can we target to be of help on the defensive side off the court, either via trade or with the MLE?

They don't need other PFs yet. Wolves just got a bunch of them. Apparently you are not satisfied with letting any or all these players attempt to fill the need.

How do you rectify your two statements underlined in the quote with each other? One says you understand he's overpaid. The other says you don't want to lose assets overspending for a player. How does that balance that a few of you are looking to send a pick plus a player or two for the right to overpay this guy and yet you post things like that still. I

[Killboard]

I am not in favor of any more draft picks being sent out. All of those you listed about JJ, couldn't that benefit us in the long run?
Not sure I want to give up cheap prospects. Okogie fits a need. Pest defender, and 1000% hustle. (Even if he is out of control sometimes.) I think JJ is a good fit here for vet leadership.

I get that and is my general opinion as well, but with the 2021 pick going to GS it could be worth to press the forward button next season since we won't have a pick even if failing to compete. Shouldn't be a development season.

Plus with Naz, Nowell and even Vanderbilt in the roster, plus whatever pick we keep this season, could be enough to have keep the influx of young cheap talent going.

As for Josh, Im losing faith in his offensive game. If he won't develop much I will play Culver in that role and upgrade the forward position to have another defender who happens to be bigger and more suited to defend forwards.

I don't have faith in Nowell or Vandy. Although I have not really seen them play. Just highlights.
I think we will need all the rookie contracts to help balance the cap. I would rather have Grant over Gordon. Gordon is just as bad at FT's than Wiggins.

I think we need to step back and let Rosas do his thing. So far he's made some good moves. We all have wish lists, but he has a plan.

I always trusted on him and I won't be pissed if he choose to go in other route, we are just mortals trying to figure things before it actually happen. Sometimes we got it right sometimes we fail miserably but IMO it is fun.

Like I said above Grant is also a PF that I would consider. Is just that I don't think he will have the same level of availability than Gordon, but I could be wrong.

Regarding fit, Gordon is at 70% FT shooter for his career. Grant is at 66%. Grabt could be a better shooter, blocker and team defender while Gordon is a better passer, rebounder (by a pretty good margin) and individual defender IMO. I certainly would be happy with either one, but would go with the one that commands less resources to get here.

[Klomp]

I'm i the only one who likes Okogie over Culver? I don't know when and how much we should pay him after his rookie deal.

They're very close in my mind. Things working against Culver include higher salary (twice as much) and likely a higher trade value.

[Klomp]

I’m not aware of this, and we would have gone over the MLE to sign DLo last year. I’ll go check.

EDIT: I’m not seeing this.

I don’t believe we’d be limited to MLE in a sign and trade. See Miami and Butler last year as well as GSW and Russell. However, and I’m no expect, but I do believe a S/T over the cap = you’re then hard capped.

Good points. Thanks for looking into it. I'm not sure what I was thinking of.

[Klomp]

You don’t get a longterm investment at the price of Gorgui Dieng.

That doesn't answer my question.

Doesn’t it? Dieng wasn’t a longterm answer, and neither is James Johnson. Rosas didn’t make this trade to add a longterm answer. I believe he did it for the reasons I listed earlier, give Naz playing time, bring in an adult in the room, especially for practice when Layman is back.

ORL is not going to trade Gordon for Gorgui Dieng. They would demand MIN give up future assets.

I think you're confusing what I'm asking. I wasn't implying that Dieng or Johnson were longterm investments. But Gordon is. Just like he traded Dieng to free up Naz, that was a longterm investment. Just like Wiggins for Russell. Just like Covington for Beasley and Hernangomez. That's what a Johnson for Gordon swap would be too.

I don't know if we would target Gordon at the end of the day. But I do believe that keeping Johnson and Hernangomez both likely means the draft picks won't be a PF/SF either and one wouldn't be added in free agency. Maybe that's what we want?

[wolves_89]

Similar to how Golden State signed Russell last year to keep the max salary slot, Minnesota is likely going to do the same thing with Johnson before the deadline next year if he's still here. $16 million can get you a very good player. If Johnson's contract runs out, we're no longer able to add someone who makes $16 million. Maybe it won't be Gordon that they trade for, but I'd be hesitant to get too attached to a 33-year old James Johnson.

I agree that Johnson is almost certainly gone if Rosas finds an opportunity where he needs to match a bigger salary. I'd be perfectly fine keeping Johnson if no deals work out, but based on how Rosas seems to operates I won't be surprised to see half the roster turn over again by the middle of next season.

[Klomp]

I agree that Johnson is almost certainly gone if Rosas finds an opportunity where he needs to match a bigger salary. I'd be perfectly fine keeping Johnson if no deals work out, but based on how Rosas seems to operates I won't be surprised to see half the roster turn over again by the middle of next season.

I don't know about half the roster, but maybe a quarter. But that's not atypical in the NBA.

[wolves_89]

I agree that Johnson is almost certainly gone if Rosas finds an opportunity where he needs to match a bigger salary. I'd be perfectly fine keeping Johnson if no deals work out, but based on how Rosas seems to operates I won't be surprised to see half the roster turn over again by the middle of next season.

I don't know about half the roster, but maybe a quarter. But that's not atypical in the NBA.

I'd guess Turner, Evans, and Spellman are likely gone with Crabbe/Vanderbilt questionable to return. There are also a number of guys who I could see getting traded in some combination that include Johnson, Layman, Okogie, and Culver. I don't think the roster is anywhere close to being stable and we are going to see significant player movement up to next seasons trade deadline.

[Klomp]

I agree that Johnson is almost certainly gone if Rosas finds an opportunity where he needs to match a bigger salary. I'd be perfectly fine keeping Johnson if no deals work out, but based on how Rosas seems to operates I won't be surprised to see half the roster turn over again by the middle of next season.

I don't know about half the roster, but maybe a quarter. But that's not atypical in the NBA.

I'd guess Turner, Evans, and Spellman are likely gone with Crabbe/Vanderbilt questionable to return. There are also a number of guys who I could see getting traded in some combination that include Johnson, Layman, Okogie, and Culver. I don't think the roster is anywhere close to being stable and we are going to see significant player movement up to next seasons trade deadline.

Fair points. I guess that doesn't even seem as drastic of changes as this year, because it's mostly bottom-half guys. But yeah, I guess we could still see 6-8 guys gone.

[Killboard]

Can I point out that you also didn't think Rosas would make an investment in Russell because he shoots too much in the midrange and as such is a bad fit for the system?

He also traded Saric to move up for Culver and has commited to Okogie who also struggles mightly. I think he values shooting but is not the only thing he cares about.

Still, I understand that Gordon is (slightly IMO) overpaid and isn't a 3pt shooter. But that's actually a good argument to be targeting him. I dont want to lose valuable assets overspending for a player in a career year. The last season he and Isaac made the Magic a terrific defensive team covering up Vucevic and Fournier. And if he improves 2 or 3% from 3 he becomes an average 3pt shooter.

Can I ask who other PF candidates can we target to be of help on the defensive side off the court, either via trade or with the MLE?

How do you rectify your two statements underlined in the quote with each other? One says you understand he's overpaid. The other says you don't want to lose assets overspending for a player. How does that balance that a few of you are looking to send a pick plus a player or two for the right to overpay this guy and yet you post things like that still. I

It's fairly easy. Is not the same to overpay a player by your own than trade for an overpaid player. That's because the costly salary make that player more available and the assets you are trading for him should be of lesser value.

But don't get my wrong, I'm not saying the current PF rotation sucks. I like both JJ and Juancho, is just that I'm not sure the wolves will be keeping both of their picks next draft and upgrade a position with an established young veteran could be wise if they want a playoff run. Johnson contract is a nice trade chip and at his age has less upside than the other forwards/wings.

[Klomp]

I'd guess Turner, Evans, and Spellman are likely gone with Crabbe/Vanderbilt questionable to return.

I would agree with these statements.

One thing I could easily see us doing is to use some of these guys as return in a sign and trade, similar to how we got Jake Layman in sign and trade last summer. That was for draft rights in return, but for example a guy like Vanderbilt is unguaranteed, so it wouldn't have to affect a team's cap if they were worried about that.

A few guys I could see as possibles for a Layman-style deal: Sterling Brown, Chris Boucher

[cpfsf]

way to early for me to make suggestions. lottery hasn't played out, 3 games in with the new roster (1 if you count Towns and Russell playing together), and march madness hasn't started

draft: if we keep the pick - BPA for earlier picks. Give more weight to fit in later draft picks. culture is something else i would consider in respect to drafting. low energy guys don't appeal to me. get guys who can trash talk when the team is down 10, someone who will stand up for a teammate after a hard foul, and guys who want to make the teammates better. as for who to draft, generally i have always disliked guards who can't shoot, and honestly i'm very skeptical of draft reports of college big's defensive abilities (especially before the tournament).

I didn't think veteran leadership was that important until KG made his return to minneapolis. obviously we can't replace KG, but I think we need someone who will push individuals on the court. I was thinking 1 year of vince carter with very limited minutes or even as an assistant coach. I really just want the new roster to develop a good culture. honestly though the free agent class really doesn't impress me much. I mean with what we can realistically obtain anyway.

as for trades, aaron gordon is apparently the timberwolves' forum flavor of the month I guess. i'm reading on this forum that he's young, has potential, plays defense, and really just misused in orlando. so i don't understand why its believed his value would be low. sure he's on the trade block but a lot of teams could use him too. the booker rumors sounds amusing tbh. i mean a star NBA player attempting to force a trade to minnesota? I don't really expect anything to happen, but it's fun to think about.

[Mamba4Goat]

way to early for me to make suggestions. lottery hasn't played out, 3 games in with the new roster (1 if you count Towns and Russell playing together), and march madness hasn't started

draft: if we keep the pick - BPA for earlier picks. Give more weight to fit in later draft picks. culture is something else i would consider in respect to drafting. low energy guys don't appeal to me. get guys who can trash talk when the team is down 10, someone who will stand up for a teammate after a hard foul, and guys who want to make the teammates better. as for who to draft, generally i have always disliked guards who can't shoot, and honestly i'm very skeptical of draft reports of college big's defensive abilities (especially before the tournament).

I didn't think veteran leadership was that important until KG made his return to minneapolis. obviously we can't replace KG, but I think we need someone who will push individuals on the court. I was thinking 1 year of vince carter with limited minutes but I doubt he'd accept it. aaron gordon is apparently the timberwolves' forum flavor of the month I guess. i'm reading on this forum that he's young, has potential, plays defense, and really just misused in orlando. so i don't understand why people his value would be low. sure he's on the trade block but a lot of teams could use him too. the booker rumors sounds amusing tbh. i mean a star NBA player attempting to force a trade to minnesota? well we can cross that bridge later (assuming the bridge even exists).

Carter is done after this year. He's already said so.

I do think Johnson will fill that role surprisingly well. If we want a vet now, I wouldn't say no to Shump. If they want one in FA Dudley and/or Crowder make sense.

I agree on drafting BPA for the early pick. I think I'd try to trade the Nets pick for a vet and do everything in my power for Tre Jones with the 2nd.

[Jedzz]

Hey did I post that Gordon sucks today yet? Well there it is either way.

I should feel bad right? this guy gets 20 million a year to do what he doesn't do.

[jpatrick]

Hey did I post that Gordon sucks today yet? Well there it is either way.

I should feel bad right? this guy gets 20 million a year to do what he doesn't do.

On the day he goes for 25pts, 9 rebs, 9 assts, on 8-15 fgs, and 3-4 from 3, leading the Magic to a win.

Just kidding. As much as I like the guy, I don’t think he’ll end up here either.

[shangrila]

draft: if we keep the pick - BPA for earlier picks. Give more weight to fit in later draft picks. culture is something else i would consider in respect to drafting. low energy guys don't appeal to me. get guys who can trash talk when the team is down 10, someone who will stand up for a teammate after a hard foul, and guys who want to make the teammates better. as for who to draft, generally i have always disliked guards who can't shoot, and honestly i'm very skeptical of draft reports of college big's defensive abilities (especially before the tournament).

Disagree on BPA to an extent. Fit matters, as does role. It's no good drafting a one position, ball dominant scoring PG when we've got Russell and plenty of guys that need shots. Because not only does it not gel with the team but it will deflate that player's play/value as well. Culver is a good example of this, of a guy who went from the fulcrum of his team to a role player and has struggled with that transition. I basically want to give guys as smooth a transition as possible. Since they've already got to adjust to the NBA, let's try not to add on adjusting to an entirely new role that goes against what they did in college and were thus drafted based on.

I do agree on the culture stuff. I'd look for high energy defense first with shooting being a very close second, then playmaking and rebounding. The more of those boxes you tick, the better.

With that in mind up top I like Okoro (defence, kind of playmaking, though he may be in play at Nets pick too), Haliburton (to back up both G spots, fits with playmaking and half-ticks the rest of the boxes) and Avdija (definitely sounds like a culture guy, hard worker, fits playmaking, smart but limited defender, shooting oddly bad given form). I don't mind Okongwu either honestly, though I need to go and see how his switchability is so he could play PF for us.

Later on Vassell (shooting, defence), Nesmith (shooting), Bey (defence, hustle, kind of shooting) and Achiuwa (hustle, defence) look ok. Though I honestly doubt they keep both picks.

I didn't think veteran leadership was that important until KG made his return to minneapolis. obviously we can't replace KG, but I think we need someone who will push individuals on the court. I was thinking 1 year of vince carter with very limited minutes or even as an assistant coach. I really just want the new roster to develop a good culture. honestly though the free agent class really doesn't impress me much. I mean with what we can realistically obtain anyway.

Agreed. I'd be pushing hard for guys like Marc Gasol and Jae Crowder. Wouldn't expect much from them on the court but their locker room presence could be huge. Though I think we'll know early on whether they want to go that route or not.

One guy I'd keep an eye on is Jevon Carter. Hardly the kind of vet we're talking, but he's an incredibly solid backup PG with good defence, low turnovers and good 3pt% that Phoenix just doesn't seem to play for some reason, despite him seeming to do well every time he gets on the court. He's only 24 too so he fits the timeline perfectly. If Phoenix isn't interested I'd go after him early, try to get him on a Layman-esque deal.

as for trades, aaron gordon is apparently the timberwolves' forum flavor of the month I guess. i'm reading on this forum that he's young, has potential, plays defense, and really just misused in orlando. so i don't understand why its believed his value would be low. sure he's on the trade block but a lot of teams could use him too. the booker rumors sounds amusing tbh. i mean a star NBA player attempting to force a trade to minnesota? I don't really expect anything to happen, but it's fun to think about.

I think a trade is likely. I doubt Rosas will be content with this team. What they get, though, I really don't know.

Gordon could fit. The shooting isn't there and honestly his consistency seems similar to Wiggins, so I'm a little dubious of jumping on that roller coaster again. But potentially he's a great fit as a versatile defensive forward who can guard either position and do a little bit of everything, with more consistency hopefully coming from a reduced role(...really sounds like Wiggins). He might be available for 2 reasons; first, Isaac plays the same position and there seems to be a bit of an awkward fit with them together. And secondly they seem like they could use a soft reboot, shifting guys like Gordon and Vucevic to make room for Isaac and Bamba, as right now their peak is about what they are now, a low playoff seed that gets sent home in 4.

Whether they're interested in trading him though, I don't know. And whether they would for the Johnson, Okogie and BRK 1st, I also don't know. I know that's all I'd be willing to offer for him though. It's worth taking a chance on him but nothing insane. If it costs more then that, we move on. Or we just keep calling them for 6 months until they accept it, kinda like the Warriors.

[Killboard]

Hey did I post that Gordon sucks today yet? Well there it is either way.

I should feel bad right? this guy gets 20 million a year to do what he doesn't do.

On the day he goes for 25pts, 9 rebs, 9 assts, on 8-15 fgs, and 3-4 from 3, leading the Magic to a win.

Just kidding. As much as I like the guy, I don’t think he’ll end up here either.

This also surfaced yesterday:

https://heavy.com/sports/2020/02/orlando-magic-tried-hard-to-trade-aaron-gordon-will-try-again/

Golden State was among the teams with whom the Magic discussed a Gordon trade. So were the Timberwolves. Those two wound up making the most significant trade of the deadline period, swapping D’Angelo Russell for Andrew Wiggins. Orlando had been interested in Russell last summer when he was a restricted free agent.

So there is that.