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Trade Talk (Part Four)

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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#241 » by Jedzz » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:17 pm

shrink wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:Here is one for you guys to rip up...

Okoge and our 1rst to Raptors for Anunoby and Johnson plus 16 to Magic for AG.

Russell
Beasley
Anunoby
Gordon
Towns

I have always been a big fan of Anunoby, and I think he has an even higher ceiling.

I just don’t know how you afford a team like this. That’s probably over $100 mil for five starters.


Were the five starters that started this current season over 100 mil?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#242 » by Norseman79 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:22 pm

Jedzz wrote:
shrink wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:Here is one for you guys to rip up...

Okoge and our 1rst to Raptors for Anunoby and Johnson plus 16 to Magic for AG.

Russell
Beasley
Anunoby
Gordon
Towns

I have always been a big fan of Anunoby, and I think he has an even higher ceiling.

I just don’t know how you afford a team like this. That’s probably over $100 mil for five starters.


Were the five starters that started this current season over 100 mil?


Not being a smart ass, but were they?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#243 » by shrink » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:04 am

Jedzz wrote:
shrink wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:Here is one for you guys to rip up...

Okoge and our 1rst to Raptors for Anunoby and Johnson plus 16 to Magic for AG.

Russell
Beasley
Anunoby
Gordon
Towns

I have always been a big fan of Anunoby, and I think he has an even higher ceiling.

I just don’t know how you afford a team like this. That’s probably over $100 mil for five starters.


Were the five starters that started this current season over 100 mil?

I don’t want to use free-spending Thib’s as the role model here, but I still think the answer is no, since Treveon Graham started at $1.7 mil.

If your team has two max deal players, most teams need to make up salary elsewhere. We’ve done a good job on some of the bench players (Naz Reid, particularly), but we also have a younger team - players that will get better AND more expensive.

A more sustainable model that has two max players might look like

MAX
MAX
$12-$17
MLE 4th starter
Rookie Scale

I think a good ratio is to try to invest 70% of your total payroll into your starters, and 30% into your bench, and the minutes should mirror this.

Of course, this is all hand waving. The NBA is a superstar league, and as individual salaries vary, ratios change. But I don’t think two max, and three players above MLE works, and is more unaffordable in the future if the other three do well.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#244 » by Klomp » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:08 am

Norseman79 wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
shrink wrote:I have always been a big fan of Anunoby, and I think he has an even higher ceiling.

I just don’t know how you afford a team like this. That’s probably over $100 mil for five starters.


Were the five starters that started this current season over 100 mil?


Not being a smart ass, but were they?

Teague, Culver, Wiggins, Covington, Towns = $90,904,489

Next year's Warriors starting five will be over $120 million.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#245 » by Norseman79 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:42 am

Obviously it is not my money, to win gold, you gotta spend gold. Now this doesn't always work or apply, but I will be damned if it doesn't at least put a playoff team on the floor.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#246 » by Jedzz » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:27 am

shrink wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
shrink wrote:I have always been a big fan of Anunoby, and I think he has an even higher ceiling.

I just don’t know how you afford a team like this. That’s probably over $100 mil for five starters.


Were the five starters that started this current season over 100 mil?

I don’t want to use free-spending Thib’s as the role model here, but I still think the answer is no, since Treveon Graham started at $1.7 mil.

If your team has two max deal players, most teams need to make up salary elsewhere. We’ve done a good job on some of the bench players (Naz Reid, particularly), but we also have a younger team - players that will get better AND more expensive.

A more sustainable model that has two max players might look like

MAX
MAX
$12-$17
MLE 4th starter
Rookie Scale

I think a good ratio is to try to invest 70% of your total payroll into your starters, and 30% into your bench, and the minutes should mirror this.

Of course, this is all hand waving. The NBA is a superstar league, and as individual salaries vary, ratios change. But I don’t think two max, and three players above MLE works, and is more unaffordable in the future if the other three do well.
Thanks for breaking this down. I agree on most maybe except for minutes mirroring money ratio. That one thing can be pointed at for possibly being a reason for teams not reaching their potential. i think the Wolves history might support that. Your break down or goal for starters salaries seems more sustainable. That is, if sustainable over time is ever the goal in a league that now likes to replace and trade players constantly.

Good catch on Graham starting. Almost forgot about him.

Going back to the Thibs era to see what Glen was willing to do: Had Butler wanted to stay and continue playing with Wiggins/Towns, those three along with Teague/Taj would have been mighty costly, maybe undoable once Towns started his max deal. Of course Thibs had cheaper capable players in Rose.Deng around as well. Had Wiggins not been such a let down, (or maybe had the team not forced minutes based on salary so strictly), that team could have been special and it might show they are at least willing to put the money up for it if they can put the players together. Wiggins 31 Towns 31 and what Butler was offered would have had them at 85 for three players, with Teague it goes to 103 for just 4 players.

I maybe would like to see them willing to go all in again, if this time they can find players that compete more consistently together. If not, keep it sustainable and guard against the situations they were recently in by attempting to keep contracts shorter.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#247 » by shrink » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:36 am

I will add that I think that Glen Taylor is willing to go into the lux for a legitimate contender. He’s a billionaire who is getting older, and owners like this have historically tended to not worry so much about the luxury tax.

That said, I don’t think you’re going to find many teams that have five starters over (and some, “far over”) the MLE.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#248 » by Jedzz » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:29 am

shrink wrote:I will add that I think that Glen Taylor is willing to go into the lux for a legitimate contender. He’s a billionaire who is getting older, and owners like this have historically tended to not worry so much about the luxury tax.

That said, I don’t think you’re going to find many teams that have five starters over (and some, “far over”) the MLE.


76ers? Unless SImmons is just under.

Maybe it would be one way for a team like the Wolves to compete at such a level without a Lebron or Curry level leader. Or like Curry's team, just explode over and piss money to the wind each season moving players around as you claim to operate under a hardcap. I'm not sure if MN qualifies but other good role players do seem to gravitate to such teams going all in with known talents and take less to be a part of those teams for a chance to do something special.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#249 » by minimus » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:07 am

shrink wrote:I will add that I think that Glen Taylor is willing to go into the lux for a legitimate contender. He’s a billionaire who is getting older, and owners like this have historically tended to not worry so much about the luxury tax.

That said, I don’t think you’re going to find many teams that have five starters over (and some, “far over”) the MLE.


Yes, Taylor has been willing to pay. I am just happy that we have a GM who kind of counterbalance Taylor by spending resources wisely. Examples are: Wiggins-DLo trade, letting Tyus go, Reid and Nowell deals, giving JMac, Kelan Martin opportunities, gambling on RFAs and Bird rights for Beasley and Juancho, Layman contract etc.

P.S. Man, I miss MIN playing... And I miss seeing Rosas working on our roster. :( Although I know that Rosas and Co will be ready for this offseason/draft etc.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#250 » by minimus » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:21 am

shrink wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
shrink wrote:I have always been a big fan of Anunoby, and I think he has an even higher ceiling.

I just don’t know how you afford a team like this. That’s probably over $100 mil for five starters.


Were the five starters that started this current season over 100 mil?

I don’t want to use free-spending Thib’s as the role model here, but I still think the answer is no, since Treveon Graham started at $1.7 mil.

If your team has two max deal players, most teams need to make up salary elsewhere. We’ve done a good job on some of the bench players (Naz Reid, particularly), but we also have a younger team - players that will get better AND more expensive.

A more sustainable model that has two max players might look like

MAX
MAX
$12-$17
MLE 4th starter
Rookie Scale

I think a good ratio is to try to invest 70% of your total payroll into your starters, and 30% into your bench, and the minutes should mirror this.

Of course, this is all hand waving. The NBA is a superstar league, and as individual salaries vary, ratios change. But I don’t think two max, and three players above MLE works, and is more unaffordable in the future if the other three do well.


1) FRP for Anunoby. After trade, offer Anunoby extension 80mil/4yrs
2) JJ, Evans, Spellman, #16 for Gordon
3) Junacho for UTA #24

Re-sign Beasley to 52mil/4yrs deal. JMac, Martin to 1+3 deals. Draft Tyler Bey.

KAT/Reid/Bey
Gordon/Anunoby/Vanderbilt
Anunoby/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/Nowell
DLo/Culver/JMac

When I proposed this trade I thought that Anunoby extension will be from 2021-22 season, which is exactly the last year of Aaron Gordon contract. Also, Gordon has declining contract and last year will be around 16,5mil. It might give Rosas enough room and time to trade Gordon before deadline 2021-22.

I also have high hopes for Tyler Bey and Desmond Bane who can be drafted at the end of first round. They might be steals of the draft
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#251 » by shrink » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:27 pm

minimus wrote:
shrink wrote:A more sustainable model that has two max players might look like

MAX
MAX
$12-$17
MLE 4th starter
Rookie Scale

I think a good ratio is to try to invest 70% of your total payroll into your starters, and 30% into your bench, and the minutes should mirror this.

Of course, this is all hand waving. The NBA is a superstar league, and as individual salaries vary, ratios change. But I don’t think two max, and three players above MLE works, and is more unaffordable in the future if the other three do well.


1) FRP for Anunoby. After trade, offer Anunoby extension 80mil/4yrs
2) JJ, Evans, Spellman, #16 for Gordon
3) Junacho for UTA #24

Re-sign Beasley to 52mil/4yrs deal. JMac, Martin to 1+3 deals. Draft Tyler Bey.

KAT/Reid/Bey
Gordon/Anunoby/Vanderbilt
Anunoby/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/Nowell
DLo/Culver/JMac

When I proposed this trade I thought that Anunoby extension will be from 2021-22 season, which is exactly the last year of Aaron Gordon contract. Also, Gordon has declining contract and last year will be around 16,5mil. It might give Rosas enough room and time to trade Gordon before deadline 2021-22.

I also have high hopes for Tyler Bey and Desmond Bane who can be drafted at the end of first round. They might be steals of the draft


2020-21: KAT $29, Gordon $18, Anunoby $4, Beasley $13, DLO $29 = $93 on starters

2021-22: KAT $31.5, Gordon $16.5, Anunoby $20, Beasley $13, DLO $30 = $111 on starters

2022-23: KAT $34, Anunoby $20, Beasley $13, DLO $31.5 = $98.5 on starters plus whatever you pay Aaron Gordon!

Salary cap was $109 this year, before Covid-19. I would be surprised if it is over $100 next year.

—————

With two max players on the books longterm, they may be able to afford one more max guy (thought teams with three max players don’t have a great history), or maybe .. maybe .. two guys in the teens. They can’t afford three.

They desperately need Culver or whoever they draft this year to be a legitimate NBA starter to make the books work.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#252 » by shrink » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:36 pm

Jedzz wrote:
shrink wrote:That said, I don’t think you’re going to find many teams that have five starters over (and some, “far over”) the MLE.


76ers? Unless SImmons is just under.

The Sixers aren’t “many teams,” and are definitely an exception. Still, even with Simmons making $8.1 (2019-20 MLE is $9.75) and Josh Richardson at $10.1, that’s still $105 mil on starters, which is why there is so much talk about them breaking up the team. They can’t afford to keep everyone, and don’t want to lose anyone for nothing.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#253 » by minimus » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:25 pm

shrink wrote:
minimus wrote:
shrink wrote:A more sustainable model that has two max players might look like

MAX
MAX
$12-$17
MLE 4th starter
Rookie Scale

I think a good ratio is to try to invest 70% of your total payroll into your starters, and 30% into your bench, and the minutes should mirror this.

Of course, this is all hand waving. The NBA is a superstar league, and as individual salaries vary, ratios change. But I don’t think two max, and three players above MLE works, and is more unaffordable in the future if the other three do well.


1) FRP for Anunoby. After trade, offer Anunoby extension 80mil/4yrs
2) JJ, Evans, Spellman, #16 for Gordon
3) Junacho for UTA #24

Re-sign Beasley to 52mil/4yrs deal. JMac, Martin to 1+3 deals. Draft Tyler Bey.

KAT/Reid/Bey
Gordon/Anunoby/Vanderbilt
Anunoby/Layman/Martin
Beasley/Okogie/Nowell
DLo/Culver/JMac

When I proposed this trade I thought that Anunoby extension will be from 2021-22 season, which is exactly the last year of Aaron Gordon contract. Also, Gordon has declining contract and last year will be around 16,5mil. It might give Rosas enough room and time to trade Gordon before deadline 2021-22.

I also have high hopes for Tyler Bey and Desmond Bane who can be drafted at the end of first round. They might be steals of the draft


2020-21: KAT $29, Gordon $18, Anunoby $4, Beasley $13, DLO $29 = $93 on starters

2021-22: KAT $31.5, Gordon $16.5, Anunoby $20, Beasley $13, DLO $30 = $111 on starters

2022-23: KAT $34, Anunoby $20, Beasley $13, DLO $31.5 = $98.5 on starters plus whatever you pay Aaron Gordon!

Salary cap was $109 this year, before Covid-19. I would be surprised if it is over $100 next year.

—————

With two max players on the books longterm, they may be able to afford one more max guy (thought teams with three max players don’t have a great history), or maybe .. maybe .. two guys in the teens. They can’t afford three.

They desperately need Culver or whoever they draft this year to be a legitimate NBA starter to make the books work.


Yeah, 20mil per year for Anunoby seems too much... 14-15mil per year looks more team realistic. And also it is about only one: Anunoby or Gordon for that price. Gordon and OG have different skillset but if we pay them similaк price I prefer the one who has longer contract.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#254 » by Neeva » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:26 pm

Id rather the wolves Not Spend their potential Last top 5 lotto pick for along time on an underwhelming and probably overpaid player like Annouby.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#255 » by minimus » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:51 pm

Neeva wrote:Id rather the wolves Not Spend their potential Last top 5 lotto pick for along time on an underwhelming and probably overpaid player like Annouby.




Oh, and we shot 38% from 3pt.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#256 » by Jedzz » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:09 am

shrink wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
shrink wrote:That said, I don’t think you’re going to find many teams that have five starters over (and some, “far over”) the MLE.


76ers? Unless SImmons is just under.

The Sixers aren’t “many teams,” and are definitely an exception. Still, even with Simmons making $8.1 (2019-20 MLE is $9.75) and Josh Richardson at $10.1, that’s still $105 mil on starters, which is why there is so much talk about them breaking up the team. They can’t afford to keep everyone, and don’t want to lose anyone for nothing.


Yes it was just one of the only examples I could think of. That was my first thought too about it being broken up soon(like Wolves/Butler might have had to happen once Wiggins was signed), all the rumors of Simmons being available.

Simmons has been hyped so long since his draft they can't afford what they would have to pay him without dumping other contracts. But a player that won't shoot threes at all might not be worth any contract at all anyway. Spotrac lists an "upcoming" extension for him at $33,930,000 per season. What a joke for a player that has made exactly two three point shots from 23 whole attempts in 3 starting seasons averging 34 min/g. 214 games. 7300 minutes of play. Two 3pt baskets. 59% FT shooter = 33mil in this fake game built on hyped stories that just won't die. Any team that pays him that much on his next deal or extension should just be contracted for keeping this silly mess of decisions going. It's just like how the Wolves overpaid Wiggins. Kind of just like how the Warriors overpaid to get Dlo (even if he can shoot well). It wasn't really about their value. It was about having players that have that contract value maintained for whatever the opportunities it grants a team.

It's a team destroying thought to pay Simmons 30-35milion a season. Nobody would draft a player in the first round if they knew that player would only have two 3s and a 59% FT shot after three seasons of starting unless they impacted the game like Shaquille ONeal with over 10 boards, additionaly shooting from 3-10ft, and blocks off the charts. Simmons with nearly 4 turnovers for every 8 assists as a PG. His height gives him defensive attributes, but he can only score at the basket from 0-3 ft while any foul shots earned are wasted at 59%. So how exactly is he worth any kind of extension over even 12mil/season? Rubio would be a better PG for that team. It's a failed fake story that needs to end. Like you said, they don't want to lose him for nothing so the hyped story must go on.

Wolves ultra small ball lineup could use Simmons as a Center I suppose when Towns is off court. Would still suck he couldn't shoot 3s. What's that worth? Vet min?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#257 » by Jedzz » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:05 pm

minimus wrote:
Neeva wrote:Id rather the wolves Not Spend their potential Last top 5 lotto pick for along time on an underwhelming and probably overpaid player like Annouby.




Oh, and we shot 38% from 3pt.


Sometimes good defenders are completely nullified by referees, and at other times completely allowed to shine by referees and we end up calling them great defenders. Will that allowance he's been afforded come with him once here? Defensive "bullies" would be a good way to describe what Toronto was allowed to be. I wouldn't say the Wolves have ever been allowed to "bully" even one player.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#258 » by minimus » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:10 pm

Jedzz wrote:
minimus wrote:
Neeva wrote:Id rather the wolves Not Spend their potential Last top 5 lotto pick for along time on an underwhelming and probably overpaid player like Annouby.




Oh, and we shot 38% from 3pt.


Sometimes good defenders are completely nullified by referees, and at other times completely allowed to shine by referees and we end up calling them great defenders. Will that allowance he's been afforded come with him once here? Defensive "bullies" would be a good way to describe what Toronto was allowed to be. I wouldn't say the Wolves have ever been allowed to "bully" even one player.


Well, I have not seen that defensive execution, effort and IQ from Wolves for a while.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#259 » by minimus » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:15 pm

shrink wrote:A more sustainable model that has two max players might look like

MAX
MAX
$12-$17
MLE 4th starter
Rookie Scale

I think a good ratio is to try to invest 70% of your total payroll into your starters, and 30% into your bench, and the minutes should mirror this.

Of course, this is all hand waving. The NBA is a superstar league, and as individual salaries vary, ratios change. But I don’t think two max, and three players above MLE works, and is more unaffordable in the future if the other three do well.


Without going too much crazy. JJ, Evans, Spellman #16 for Gordon. Re-sign Beasley to 52mil/4yrs deal, Juancho for 15mil/3yrs. JMac, Martin to 1+3 deals. Draft Tyler Bey. Draft Edwards, Tyler Bey.

KAT/Reid/Bey
Gordon/Juancho/Vanderbilt
Okogie/Layman/Martin
Edwards/Beasley/Culver
DLo/Culver/JMac
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Four) 

Post#260 » by Jedzz » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:24 pm

minimus wrote:
Well, I have not seen that defensive execution, effort and IQ from Wolves for a while.


Maybe the execution hasn't been there. But I think Toroto as a team has been allowed to get away with just about anything for the last few years. For the Wolves, what happens to say, Towns, the moment he is handed two early fouls? He's no longer going to be throwing a lot of effort into it, he's got to start hiding from it. Whether he's got good execution or bad. That's a team leader getting shut down early by refs. Would Annouby not get that treatment here?

I saw a bit of a change in the past two seasons once RoCo got here. We started having those defensive stand moments where everyone was allowed to defend without being called for ticky tac and fake reach ins that never occured. It sort of stayed even after RoCo was traded. Is it because RoCo brought that defensive respect with him? And could Anonuby do the same?

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