Trade Talk (Part Four)

[shrink]

That's fair argument. I thought that ATL might aim Edwards as their future SG, but you know better. I don't know much about Georgia as FA destination. So I might be mistaken but ATL don't have much choice but simply overpay Beasley by big margin.

There's no guarantee the Hawks get Edwards, if they do it changes the need for going after Beasley.
How much is Minny willing to pay Beasley?

From all appearances here, MIN is willing to match most Beasley offers. He averaged like 20 a game and could hit three’s.

To me though, this could be a mistake. While it’s hard to know where his final salary would land (great audition in few games versus CoronaCap deflation), if Towns and Russell are the starters, Beasley’s average defense may not be enough. He would be terrific as a sixth man, but what should you pay for that?

Part of the reason MIN sunk a late 1st and KDB into him was to get his (and Juancho’s) Bird rights, since they are over the cap, and only have the MLE to add to the team. Still, if they could get out close to what they paid, I’d say that was fair. If Beasley would excel if he got back to Atlanta, I’d offer a S&T for both for the GSW 2nd. It might be a way to make Beasley happy, repay MIN for the Bird rights, and keep both teams from running up the contract.

[Killboard]

That's fair argument. I thought that ATL might aim Edwards as their future SG, but you know better. I don't know much about Georgia as FA destination. So I might be mistaken but ATL don't have much choice but simply overpay Beasley by big margin.

There's no guarantee the Hawks get Edwards, if they do it changes the need for going after Beasley.
How much is Minny willing to pay Beasley?

From all appearances here, MIN is willing to match most Beasley offers. He averaged like 20 a game and could hit three’s.

To me though, this could be a mistake. While it’s hard to know where his final salary would land (great audition in few games versus CoronaCap deflation), if Towns and Russell are the starters, Beasley’s average defense may not be enough. He would be terrific as a sixth man, but what should you pay for that?

Part of the reason MIN sunk a late 1st and KDB into him was to get his (and Juancho’s) Bird rights, since they are over the cap, and only have the MLE to add to the team. Still, if they could get out close to what they paid, I’d say that was fair. If Beasley would excel if he got back to Atlanta, I’d offer a S&T for both for the GSW 2nd. It might be a way to make Beasley happy, repay MIN for the Bird rights, and keep both teams from running up the contract.

I would offer 3 or 4 years 12M per. If somebody offers him up to 15M a match is a no brainer.
Maybe people jump at me saying he is worth much more than that but guys who signed similar deals in the last 2 seasons:

Terrific defensive players who can hit 3's:
Patrick Beverley
Marcus Smart
Robert Covington
Danny Green

Proven offensive pieces:
Joe Ingles
Terrence Ross
J.J. Redick
Eric Gordon
Spencer Dinwiddie

Two way wings:
Josh Richardson
Will Barton

Borderline all-star Centers:
Brook Lopez
Jusuf Nurkić


Mostly starters or 6th men for playoff teams. Could Beasley got a lot more? Sure. Would suck to lose a late first (half, really) for 2 month rental? Sure. Is he worth more than that? Not sure.
If ATL or another team with a lot of cap offers him 15M to 20M, then is when I will really think about it.
More than 20M is a let go.

[wolves_89]

For this team, I do not think you can make up for a bad three point shooter at the PF spot with good three point shooting at other positions.

Take the Utah back-to-back this year. Rudy Gobert is one of the four great centers in the NBA, and Towns played him off the floor in their first meeting. The Jazz kept Gobert under the rim (where he is one of the best ever at altering shots), and Towns scorched him from the outside. The next night, to keep Gobert on the court, they actually had him chasing Towns around on the perimeter! This demonstrates how disruptive Towns can be with the correct pieces around him - the Jazz were even willing to play Gobert out of position.

This all goes away if we add a PF who is not a three point threat. The Jazz would have simply had Gobert defend, say, Taj Gibson, and any other Wolves player that drove to the hoop. They couldn’t do that if we had Covington, and I hope that any PF we add will be enough of a threat that the big slow centers like Gobert, Embiid, Jokic .. and especially guys like Gasol, Steven Adams, Kevin Love etc, will be neutralized when they face our front court.

Gordon hits 30% of treys this year. Which is bad for a wing. However, it is okay for a big to keep offense honest, because he is not a wing in our offense. KAT plays more like a wing, so Gordon can play more like a big. It is up to Okogie, Culver, Martin, Nowell to shoot better than 26-30% from 3pt line.

I completely disagree, as I said in the last post. The PF needs to shoot three’s, or we lose our match up advantage.

I do have a bit of hope that Gordon could be more of a 3pt threat than he gets credit for. In 2017-18 he shot 38.8% on catch and shoot (no dribble) 3s at a volume of 4.0/game. In 2018-19 he attempted 3.2 catch and shoot 3s per game at a respectable 35.8% rate. So while 2019-20 has been a poor shooting year (31.0%), he has some history of being an adequate 3pt shooting option when not trying to shoot off the dribble.

[Killboard]

Gordon hits 30% of treys this year. Which is bad for a wing. However, it is okay for a big to keep offense honest, because he is not a wing in our offense. KAT plays more like a wing, so Gordon can play more like a big. It is up to Okogie, Culver, Martin, Nowell to shoot better than 26-30% from 3pt line.

I completely disagree, as I said in the last post. The PF needs to shoot three’s, or we lose our match up advantage.

I do have a bit of hope that Gordon could be more of a 3pt threat than he gets credit for. In 2017-18 he shot 38.8% on catch and shoot (no dribble) 3s at a volume of 4.0/game. In 2018-19 he attempted 3.2 catch and shoot 3s per game at a respectable 35.8% rate. So while 2019-20 has been a poor shooting year (31.0%), he has some history of being an adequate 3pt shooting option when not trying to shoot off the dribble.

.342 from the corners for his career. Covington is @.377. Markannen @.372. Is he as good as them? No, but it could be enough.
I would not invest heavy resources on Gordon but if Orl is wanting playing time for the arrays of PF they already have, it could be worth.

Plus, you can always bring in a better shooting PF from the bench to play if Gordon defense is not offseting his shooting on certain matchups.

[minimus]

I completely disagree, as I said in the last post. The PF needs to shoot three’s, or we lose our match up advantage.

I do have a bit of hope that Gordon could be more of a 3pt threat than he gets credit for. In 2017-18 he shot 38.8% on catch and shoot (no dribble) 3s at a volume of 4.0/game. In 2018-19 he attempted 3.2 catch and shoot 3s per game at a respectable 35.8% rate. So while 2019-20 has been a poor shooting year (31.0%), he has some history of being an adequate 3pt shooting option when not trying to shoot off the dribble.

.342 from the corners for his career. Covington is @.377. Markannen @.372. Is he as good as them? No, but it could be enough.
I would not invest heavy resources on Gordon but if Orl is wanting playing time for the arrays of PF they already have, it could be worth.

Plus, you can always bring in a better shooting PF from the bench to play if Gordon defense is not offseting his shooting on certain matchups.

I think that it depends on direction our team is moving on. I truly believe that we should continue to play fast, pace-and-space basketball. This is opposite of trading for Myles Turner, drafting Wiseman/Okongwu, Obi Toppin etc. It is opposite of what ORL played when they played Vuc-Isaac-Gordon frontcourt without elite shooters and ballhandlers.

We have the best smallball С in NBA in Towns. There is no answer for him, because he is too mobile for guys like Gobert, Adams, Jokic. And he is too big for other smallball centers.

Two things that we need to run smallball successfully are secondary ballhandler and rim runner + finisher at rim + rebounder + versatile defender. We are bottom3 as team in FG%, #21 in assists, commited 6th highest numbers of TOs. Once we can secure rebound and secure that transition offense, we will be very hard to beat.

That is why one of my ideal scenarios is one when we get Aaron Gordon, Tyrese Maxey. I am impressed by Gordon ability to play smallball С, because of his athleticism, defensive versatility, rebounding, ballhandling and passing abilities.

Watch on YouTube

Tyrese Maxey is a winner, comboguard without fear. He reminds me Dame Lillard.

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[shrink]

I do have a bit of hope that Gordon could be more of a 3pt threat than he gets credit for. In 2017-18 he shot 38.8% on catch and shoot (no dribble) 3s at a volume of 4.0/game. In 2018-19 he attempted 3.2 catch and shoot 3s per game at a respectable 35.8% rate. So while 2019-20 has been a poor shooting year (31.0%), he has some history of being an adequate 3pt shooting option when not trying to shoot off the dribble.

.342 from the corners for his career. Covington is @.377. Markannen @.372. Is he as good as them? No, but it could be enough.

This is exactly how I feel. Our PF has to be a good enough three point shooter to stretch a second big out to the three point line.

Can Gordon be a big enough threat to force opposing coaches to bring both bigs out, and create space for our slashers? I guess we can hope. I agree with you; our PF doesn’t have to be awesome, but he needs to be a serious threat. I think my threshold would be around 36%

[Killboard]

I do have a bit of hope that Gordon could be more of a 3pt threat than he gets credit for. In 2017-18 he shot 38.8% on catch and shoot (no dribble) 3s at a volume of 4.0/game. In 2018-19 he attempted 3.2 catch and shoot 3s per game at a respectable 35.8% rate. So while 2019-20 has been a poor shooting year (31.0%), he has some history of being an adequate 3pt shooting option when not trying to shoot off the dribble.

.342 from the corners for his career. Covington is @.377. Markannen @.372. Is he as good as them? No, but it could be enough.

This is exactly how I feel. Our PF has to be a good enough three point shooter to stretch a second big out to the three point line.

Can Gordon be a big enough threat to force opposing coaches to bring both bigs out, and create space for our slashers? I guess we can hope. I agree with you; our PF doesn’t have to be awesome, but he needs to be a serious threat. I think my threshold would be around 36%

It's fair assessment. But is always a trade off. Not only because the perfect player does not exist, but because even if he exist, you still must have enough assets to put pieces around him. What I mean is, we had Roco, who is not only a better shooter than 36% but a defensive presence. But the PG and SG defense was so porous and light on contact and rebounds (the previous season, in my understanding), and KAT who is not Gobert, that we were among the worse defensive teams in the league.

We also had Dario and Juancho both who shot over 36% but still weren't good enough at other things. Dario has problems defending in space, Juancho had more problems defending the paint. I think Gordon brings the defensive versatilty those guys lacked, he is physical but quick enough to switch and can play above the rim, while no being terrible at shooting.

But he is just a name going around becuse he is in an awkward situation in his current team, with Aminu, Okeke and Isaac at his position. Guys on their second contracts who are paid well and didn't become stars are more close to be neutral assets than a standout young player on a rookie scaled contrct (for which could be less costly to get them) and far more proven than a mid to late lottery pick.

[minimus]

Anti Wiggins: 6-7, 210lbs, 7'+ wingspan. 3-and-D wing

Watch on YouTube

We should try to get him.

[Dewey]

Gordon ... Overall I am in favor of a trade to bring him to MN, not necessarily because he is an elite, but he is about the right age and has enough diversity to fit with an array of player rotations as we work to build roster. Money (cap) talks, trade assets we would have to give up talks ... maybe we cannot justify the move IDK.

The unknown of course is our front office view of the draft talent ... Can we handle more youth or do we look to step forward and acquire a player(s) that have short-term fit and long-term potential?

I predict we will move atleast 1 frp in a trade ... possibly both.

[Killboard]

Gordon ... Overall I am in favor of a trade to bring him to MN, not necessarily because he is an elite, but he is about the right age and has enough diversity to fit with an array of player rotations as we work to build roster. Money (cap) talks, trade assets we would have to give up talks ... maybe we cannot justify the move IDK.

The unknown of course is our front office view of the draft talent ... Can we handle more youth or do we look to step forward and acquire a player(s) that have short-term fit and long-term potential?

I predict we will move atleast 1 frp in a trade ... possibly both.

Is why I'm beating drums for Marcus Smart too. He is in a total different situation with his team though, Boston does not have anyone to fulfill that role. But maybe if Ainge is trying to outsmart (no pun intended) himself and pick a high potential rookie to his roster, like Wiseman, Edwards, Ball, Hayes etc, would be a lot safer for the wolves than see how they work out, even more when we won't have the luxury of a pick next draft. The wolves could even take back another mid round prospect in that scenario.

But what you mentioned is an underrated aspect: Gordon can play the PF but also the SF, maybe along another PF who can really shoot like Juancho for spacing reasons. Not only he is quick to switch on defense but he is an above average passer for his size. The same goes for Smart. He can play SG or SF, and even PG along an initiator on the wing like Dlo used to do in GS. Having those type of guys gives you versatilty to make lineups with the second unit, mix in rookies, gameplan different strategies and go through an 82 game season with more flexibilty.

[Jedzz]

Can Gordon be a big enough threat to force opposing coaches to bring both bigs out, and create space for our slashers? I guess we can hope. I agree with you; our PF doesn’t have to be awesome, but he needs to be a serious threat. I think my threshold would be around 36%

I don't know that asking what will force opponent coaches into bringing both bigs out is the right question really. What we saw previously is that if opponents had two decent bigs, they leveraged them against the Wolves greatly. Can Gordon help when that is the scenario and then also be a plus when not faced with that opponent scenario?

[Mattya]

Our offense really clicked with Johnson in the lineup despite him not being a good shooter. Use Gordon the same way.

[KGdaBom]

There's no guarantee the Hawks get Edwards, if they do it changes the need for going after Beasley.
How much is Minny willing to pay Beasley?

From all appearances here, MIN is willing to match most Beasley offers. He averaged like 20 a game and could hit three’s.

To me though, this could be a mistake. While it’s hard to know where his final salary would land (great audition in few games versus CoronaCap deflation), if Towns and Russell are the starters, Beasley’s average defense may not be enough. He would be terrific as a sixth man, but what should you pay for that?

Part of the reason MIN sunk a late 1st and KDB into him was to get his (and Juancho’s) Bird rights, since they are over the cap, and only have the MLE to add to the team. Still, if they could get out close to what they paid, I’d say that was fair. If Beasley would excel if he got back to Atlanta, I’d offer a S&T for both for the GSW 2nd. It might be a way to make Beasley happy, repay MIN for the Bird rights, and keep both teams from running up the contract.

I would offer 3 or 4 years 12M per. If somebody offers him up to 15M a match is a no brainer.
Maybe people jump at me saying he is worth much more than that but guys who signed similar deals in the last 2 seasons:

Terrific defensive players who can hit 3's:
Patrick Beverley
Marcus Smart
Robert Covington
Danny Green

Proven offensive pieces:
Joe Ingles
Terrence Ross
J.J. Redick
Eric Gordon
Spencer Dinwiddie

Two way wings:
Josh Richardson
Will Barton

Borderline all-star Centers:
Brook Lopez
Jusuf Nurkić


Mostly starters or 6th men for playoff teams. Could Beasley got a lot more? Sure. Would suck to lose a late first (half, really) for 2 month rental? Sure. Is he worth more than that? Not sure.
If ATL or another team with a lot of cap offers him 15M to 20M, then is when I will really think about it.
More than 20M is a let go.

Looking at your list he is NOT worth more than $15 million.

[minimus]

Our offense really clicked with Johnson in the lineup despite him not being a good shooter. Use Gordon the same way.

The thing is that JJ can dribble, slash, pass and rebound. If we look at our roster we can see that we lack such dynamic, only KAT, DLo, Culver and JMac can offer creativity with the ball. I mean even a simple dribble handoff on perimeter executed by JJ and one of our shooters can be an effective weapon. We wont bring here Gordon to be 3pt shooter, no. He needs to play at full speed, by using his strengths.

[minimus]

Gordon ... Overall I am in favor of a trade to bring him to MN, not necessarily because he is an elite, but he is about the right age and has enough diversity to fit with an array of player rotations as we work to build roster. Money (cap) talks, trade assets we would have to give up talks ... maybe we cannot justify the move IDK.

The unknown of course is our front office view of the draft talent ... Can we handle more youth or do we look to step forward and acquire a player(s) that have short-term fit and long-term potential?

I predict we will move atleast 1 frp in a trade ... possibly both.

Is why I'm beating drums for Marcus Smart too. He is in a total different situation with his team though, Boston does not have anyone to fulfill that role. But maybe if Ainge is trying to outsmart (no pun intended) himself and pick a high potential rookie to his roster, like Wiseman, Edwards, Ball, Hayes etc, would be a lot safer for the wolves than see how they work out, even more when we won't have the luxury of a pick next draft. The wolves could even take back another mid round prospect in that scenario.

But what you mentioned is an underrated aspect: Gordon can play the PF but also the SF, maybe along another PF who can really shoot like Juancho for spacing reasons. Not only he is quick to switch on defense but he is an above average passer for his size. The same goes for Smart. He can play SG or SF, and even PG along an initiator on the wing like Dlo used to do in GS. Having those type of guys gives you versatilty to make lineups with the second unit, mix in rookies, gameplan different strategies and go through an 82 game season with more flexibilty.

Gordon at the PF can create some advantage for us in defense, but I'd rather go big at SF, for instance Gordon at PF and Layman at SF. I think we need to keep our offense as dynamic as possible. We simply don't have right personnel to play size heavy lineups as both KAT and Reid are better in fast paced game.

Honestly, I think we need to trade for Mikal Bridges. Gordon+Bridges duo is a perfect combo for our offensive model. They can defend anyone and compliment each other well in offense.

[Killboard]

Gordon ... Overall I am in favor of a trade to bring him to MN, not necessarily because he is an elite, but he is about the right age and has enough diversity to fit with an array of player rotations as we work to build roster. Money (cap) talks, trade assets we would have to give up talks ... maybe we cannot justify the move IDK.

The unknown of course is our front office view of the draft talent ... Can we handle more youth or do we look to step forward and acquire a player(s) that have short-term fit and long-term potential?

I predict we will move atleast 1 frp in a trade ... possibly both.

Is why I'm beating drums for Marcus Smart too. He is in a total different situation with his team though, Boston does not have anyone to fulfill that role. But maybe if Ainge is trying to outsmart (no pun intended) himself and pick a high potential rookie to his roster, like Wiseman, Edwards, Ball, Hayes etc, would be a lot safer for the wolves than see how they work out, even more when we won't have the luxury of a pick next draft. The wolves could even take back another mid round prospect in that scenario.

But what you mentioned is an underrated aspect: Gordon can play the PF but also the SF, maybe along another PF who can really shoot like Juancho for spacing reasons. Not only he is quick to switch on defense but he is an above average passer for his size. The same goes for Smart. He can play SG or SF, and even PG along an initiator on the wing like Dlo used to do in GS. Having those type of guys gives you versatilty to make lineups with the second unit, mix in rookies, gameplan different strategies and go through an 82 game season with more flexibilty.

Gordon at the PF can create some advantage for us in defense, but I'd rather go big at SF, for instance Gordon at PF and Layman at SF. I think we need to keep our offense as dynamic as possible. We simply don't have right personnel to play size heavy lineups as both KAT and Reid are better in fast paced game.

Honestly, I think we need to trade for Mikal Bridges. Gordon+Bridges duo is a perfect combo for our offensive model. They can defend anyone and compliment each other well in offense.

Bridges would be a great target as well. I just don't see Phoenix trading him any time soon, even for a top pick.

[minimus]

Bridges would be a great target as well. I just don't see Phoenix trading him any time soon, even for a top pick.

I'd be happy if we draft Saddiq Bey or Devin Vassell to fill that 3&D role.

[shrink]

Our offense really clicked with Johnson in the lineup despite him not being a good shooter. Use Gordon the same way.

We have barely seen Johnson play with KAT. I’m not willing to make him the model.

[shrink]

Can Gordon be a big enough threat to force opposing coaches to bring both bigs out, and create space for our slashers? I guess we can hope. I agree with you; our PF doesn’t have to be awesome, but he needs to be a serious threat. I think my threshold would be around 36%

I don't know that asking what will force opponent coaches into bringing both bigs out is the right question really. What we saw previously is that if opponents had two decent bigs, they leveraged them against the Wolves greatly. Can Gordon help when that is the scenario and then also be a plus when not faced with that opponent scenario?

That’s true, but Rosas and Saunders have stuck with the mantra, “we want them to adjust to us.” It’s the reason we never play two bigs.

At least against Utah, Quin Snyder had to adjust to us.

[Mattya]

Our offense really clicked with Johnson in the lineup despite him not being a good shooter. Use Gordon the same way.

We have barely seen Johnson play with KAT. I’m not willing to make him the model.

Well in my mind they wouldn't make that trade for Johnson if they didn't feel like he was in some way the model of what they want next to KAT. I don't know who you see out there that is 1. attainable at a reasonable cost and 2. a better fit with KAT.