Jordan McLaughlin - JMAC

[Jedzz]

Ranking projected starting or high usage PGs around the league before this season according to this guy:
Shooting splts FG%/3FG%/FT%

30 rookie guess - off base
29 Isaiah Jamar Thomas
2018-19 STATS: 8.1ppg, 1.1rpg, 1.9apg, .4stl, 34.3%/27.9%/63% shooting splits, 7 PER, -.3 WS, -25 NET, -.3 VORP, -8.7 BPM
28 Terry Rozier
2018-19 STATS: 9ppg, 3.9rpg, 2.9apg, .9stl, 38.7%/35.3%/78.5% shooting splits, 12.9 PER, 3.2 WS, -2 NET, .6 VORP, -.7 BPM
27 - rookie guess - off base
26 Delon Wright
2018-19 STATS: 8.7ppg, 3.5rpg, 3.3apg, 1.2stl, 43.4%/29.8%/79.3% shooting splits, 15.5 PER, 4.3 WS, +3 NET, .8 VORP, 2.2 BPM
25 Dennis Smith Jr
2018-19 STATS: 13.6ppg, 2.9rpg, 4.8apg, 1.3stl, 42.8%/32.2%/63.5% shooting splits, 12.3 PER, 0 WS, -18 NET, -.1 VORP, -2.7 BPM
24 Lonzo Ball
2018-19 STATS: 9.9ppg, 5.3rpg, 5.4apg, 1.5stl, 40.6%/32.9%/41.7% shooting splits, 11.7 PER, 1.6 WS, -9 NET, .9 VORP, .5 BPM
23 Collin Sexton
2018-19 STATS: 16.7ppg, 2.9rpg, 3apg, .5stl, 43%/40.2%/83.9% shooting splits, 12 PER, -.6 WS, -20 NET, -2.1 VORP, -5.2 BPM
22 Avery Bradley
2018-19 STATS: 9.9ppg, 2.8rpg, 2.4apg, 1stl, 40.8%/35.1%/86% shooting splits, 7.6 PER, .3 WS, -17 NET, -.4 VORP, -2.8 BPM
21 Dejounte Murray
2017-18 STATS: 8.1ppg, 5.7rpg, 2.9apg, 1.2stl, 44.3%/26.5%/70.9% shooting splits, 15.1 PER, 3.2 WS, -2 NET, 1.4 VORP, 1.2 BPM
20 Jeff Teague
2018-19 STATS: 12.1ppg, 2.5rpg, 8.2apg, 1stl, 42.3%/33.3%/80.4% shooting splits, 15.4 PER, 2.2 WS, -4 NET, -.1 VORP, -2.4 BPM
19 Justise Winslow
2018-19 STATS: 12.6ppg, 5.4rpg, 4.3apg, 1.1stl, 43.3%/37.5%/62.8% shooting splits, 12.8 PER, 2.8 WS, -6 NET, 1 VORP, -.1 BPM
18 Ricky Rubio
2018-19 STATS: 12.7ppg, 3.6rpg, 6.1apg, 1.3stl, 40.4%/31.1%/85.5% shooting splits, 14 PER, 3.7 WS, -2 NET, .9 VORP, 0 BPM
17 D.J. Augustin
2018-19 STATS: 11.7ppg, 2.5rpg, 5.3apg, .6stl, 47%/42.1%/86.6% shooting splits, 15.7 PER, 6.9 WS, +10 NET, 1 VORP, -.3 BPM
16 Patrick Beverley
2018-19 STATS: 7.6ppg, 5rpg, 3.8apg, .9stl, 40.7%/39.7%/78% shooting splits, 11.8 PER, 4.8 WS, +8 NET, 2.3 VORP, 2.3 BPM
15 Reggie Jackson
2018-19 STATS: 15.4ppg, 2.6rpg, 4.2apg, .7stl, 42.1%/36.9%/86.4% shooting splits, 15.2 PER, 5 WS, -1 NET, 1 VORP, -.3 BPM
14 Malcolm Brogdon
2018-19 STATS: 15.6ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.2apg, .7stl, 50.5%/42.6%/92.8% shooting splits, 17.8 PER, 6.5 WS, +13 NET, 1.6 VORP, 1.5 BPM
13 Eric Bledsoe
2018-19 STATS: 15.9ppg, 4.6rpg, 5.5apg, 1.5stl, 48.4%/32.9%/75% shooting splits, 19.3 PER, 8.2 WS, +11 NET, 3.2 VORP, 3.5 BPM
12 Trae Young
2018-19 STATS: 19.1ppg, 3.7rpg, 8.1apg, .9stl, 41.8%/32.4%/82.9% shooting splits, 17 PER, 3.3 WS, -10 NET, .6 VORP, -1.1 BPM
11 Jamal Murray
2018-19 STATS: 18.2ppg, 4.2rpg, 4.8apg, .9stl, 43.7%/36.7%/84.8% shooting splits, 16 PER, 5.1 WS, -1 NET, 1.3 VORP, .1 BPM
10 De’Aaron Fox
2018-19 STATS: 17.3ppg, 3.8rpg, 7.3apg, 1.6stl, 45.8%/37.1%/72.7% shooting splits, 18.1 PER, 5.6 WS, -1 NET, 2 VORP, 1.1 BPM
09 Chris Paul
2018-19 STATS: 15.6ppg, 4.6rpg, 8.2apg, 2stl, 41.9%/35.8%/86.2% shooting splits, 19.7 PER, 6.6 WS, +9 NET, 2.4 VORP, 3 BPM
08 Ben Simmons
2018-19 STATS: 16.9ppg, 8.8rpg, 7.7apg, 1.4stl, 56.3%/0%/60% shooting splits, 20 PER, 8.2 WS, +6 NET, 4.1 VORP, 4.1 BPM
07 Mike Conley,
2018-19 STATS: 21.1ppg, 3.4rpg, 6.4apg, 1.3stl, 43.8%/36.4%/84.5% shooting splits, 21.4 PER, 8 WS, +6 NET, 3.2 VORP, 3.4 BPM
06 Kyle Lowry
2018-19 STATS: 14.2ppg, 4.8rpg, 8.7apg, 1.4stl, 41.1%/34.7%/83% shooting splits, 16.5 PER, 6.6 WS, +7 NET, 2.8 VORP, 3.1 BPM
05 Kemba Walker
2018-19 STATS: 25.6ppg, 4.4rpg, 5.9apg, 1.2 stl, 43.4%/35.6%/84.4% shooting splits, 21.7 PER, 7.4 WS, -2 NET, 3.9 VORP, 3.3 BPM
04 Russell Westbrook
2018-19 STATS: 22.9ppg, 11.1rpg, 10.7apg, 1.9stl, 42.8%/29%/65.6% shooting splits, 21.1 PER, 6.8 WS, +2 NET, 5.6 VORP, 6.5 BPM
03 Kyrie Irving
2018-19 STATS: 23.8ppg, 5rpg, 6.9apg, 1.5stl, 48.7%/40.1%/87.3% shooting splits, 24.3 PER, 9.1 WS, +10 NET, 4.7 VORP, 6.4 BPM
02 Damian Lillard
2018-19 STATS: 25.8ppg, 4.6rpg, 6.9apg, 1.1stl, 44.4%/36.9%/91.2% shooting splits, 23.7 PER, 12.1 WS, +9 NET, 5.4 VORP, 5.5 BPM
01 Stephen Curry
2018-19 STATS: 27.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 5.2apg, 1.3stl, 47.2%/43.7%/91.6% shooting splits, 24.4 PER, 9.7 WS, +10 NET, 4.9 VORP, 6.3 BPM


Rookie JMac 19-2020 splits:
2 games As starter: 19.5ppg(avg 35mins), 66.7%/.500%/100% shooting splits
28 games As Reserve: 6.8ppg(avg 18mins), 46.1%/36.8%/63.9% shooting split
Greater than or comparable to starters:

Mixed role: 7.6ppg, 1.6rpg, 4.2apg, 1.1 stl, 16.3 PER, 0.3 VORP, 0.3 BPM

Hollinger
39 rookies compared: # rank
#1 AST Ratio of rookies at 35.6 [Ja Morant #2 w/27.0]
#7 TS% of rookies at .587 (.770 as starter would be #1)
#6 PER of rookies at 16.3 [JaMorant #4 w/17.9]
#37 Rebound rate of rookies - [Morant 34, Nunn 35,Thybulle 38]
#9 Value Added 47.2 [Nunn #5 with 84.0, Thybulle #28 w/-12.4]

Confirming numbers and filling in gaps using Basketball Reference.

[Jedzz]

[
I am not saying that JMac MUST sign that offer, nor that we MUST sign him to 1+3 offer. I think we SHOULD give 1+3 contracts to unproven players. I actually wrote that we should have given that offer to JMac LAST offseason, in order to retain him now.

I didn't suggest that you said he must sign, or that we must sign him to a 1+3. I commented on the fact you proposed that at most they should offer him is a 1+3 Hinkie and if that's not enough to get him to sign then to choose other players for options b,c,d,e as alternative options. Most of the other options being much more expensive.

My point of contention is the limit you are applying to what he could be offered here/should be offered. I remember you posting last offseason or at least mid season this year that they should offer a 1+3 to cheaply retain him and Iagree they should have earlier offered him something (not that I agree with using 1+3s at all), but you have also very recently said that's the limit again. My point is that his play has proven a much higher ceiling level is possible very early in his career. Your opinion appears to be that he's still unproven. To which I've tried to ask you and others what amount of time served is going to be enough to believe what he's doing is real, and where exactly he's supposed to get more time from if we start drafting players to take that playing time of his downwards. I hope this clears up any confusion.

[minimus]

[
I am not saying that JMac MUST sign that offer, nor that we MUST sign him to 1+3 offer. I think we SHOULD give 1+3 contracts to unproven players. I actually wrote that we should have given that offer to JMac LAST offseason, in order to retain him now.

I didn't suggest that you said he must sign, or that we must sign him to a 1+3. I commented on the fact you proposed that at most they should offer him is a 1+3 Hinkie and if that's not enough to get him to sign then to choose other players for options b,c,d,e as alternative options.

My point of contention is the limit you are applying to what he could be offered here/should be offered. I remember you posting last offseason or at least mid season this year that they should offer a 1+3 to cheaply retain him and Iagree they should have earlier offered him something (not that I agree with using 1+3s at all), but you have also very recently said that's the limit again. My point is that his play has proven a much higher ceiling level is possible very early in his career. Your opinion appears to be that he's still unproven. To which I've tried to ask you and others what amount of time served is going to be enough to believe what he's doing is real, and where exactly he's supposed to get more time from if we start drafting players to take that playing time of his downwards. I hope this clears up any confusion.

I believe that even now, Rosas should start negotiating with 1+3 deal, with amount slightly more Nowell deal. It will start negotiation, because it is a process. Remember, that JMac owes that opportunity to MIN, when no one else gave him a chance even for 2way contract. The problem with Thibs was that he never believed in rookies, never gave them a real chance in NBA. JMac got everything in MIN as two way prospect: opportunities in gleague, opportunities with main team. Ryan and Rosas has been on completely new level working with JMac, Reid, Kelan Martin and Nowell. I hope that Vanderbilt will develop into rotation player next season.

[Jedzz]

[
I am not saying that JMac MUST sign that offer, nor that we MUST sign him to 1+3 offer. I think we SHOULD give 1+3 contracts to unproven players. I actually wrote that we should have given that offer to JMac LAST offseason, in order to retain him now.

I didn't suggest that you said he must sign, or that we must sign him to a 1+3. I commented on the fact you proposed that at most they should offer him is a 1+3 Hinkie and if that's not enough to get him to sign then to choose other players for options b,c,d,e as alternative options.

My point of contention is the limit you are applying to what he could be offered here/should be offered. I remember you posting last offseason or at least mid season this year that they should offer a 1+3 to cheaply retain him and Iagree they should have earlier offered him something (not that I agree with using 1+3s at all), but you have also very recently said that's the limit again. My point is that his play has proven a much higher ceiling level is possible very early in his career. Your opinion appears to be that he's still unproven. To which I've tried to ask you and others what amount of time served is going to be enough to believe what he's doing is real, and where exactly he's supposed to get more time from if we start drafting players to take that playing time of his downwards. I hope this clears up any confusion.

I believe that even now, Rosas should start negotiating with 1+3 deal, with amount slightly more Nowell deal. It will start negotiation, because it is a process. Remember, that JMac owes that opportunity to MIN, when no one else gave him a chance even for 2way contract.

None of that matters to anything real. It's not about getting the absolute cheapest business deal done that you can. He isn't trying to buy/sell a vacuum clearner or car. They are trying to build a winning team and winning franchise. That takes real players at all levels. That takes treating your players respectfully as people. That takes treating all your players as close to the same as possible to not cause rifts, and many other aspects. The best players are obviously going to get substantially more in this league. But the great equalizer is making sure that you allow great play on the court be rewarded by a guaranteed deal that at least brings them into the fold as normal rich NBA players for lack of a better description. Choosing to instead take every ounce of advantage against these players that already put in extra efforts to break into the league the hard way by leveeraging them into slaving in comparison with 95% of the rest of the league is just a wrong way to build player respect for your franchise all across the league. I posted a quote from a 2015 article deriding the usage of 1+3 deals that Hinkie was known for and the string of coaching/GM trees that are connected to sixers and rockets. Rosas obviously connected. Players and Agents aren't going to quickly forget such tactics. JMac's numbers present a very real positive oppotunity for this team to have a great bench leader. Instead of looking at it as "this team gave him the only chance out there", you should maybe see it as "this team made a very wise choice and it's paying off bigtime!" Now all they have to do is lock him up with a respectable enough deal. Don't make it a four or five year ball and chain. Offer a 2,3, or 4 year at most but guaranteed deal that keeps him building himself more for the next deal and makes him want to keep playing for your team.

The problem with Thibs was that he never believed in rookies, never gave them a real chance in NBA. JMac got everything in MIN as two way prospect: opportunities in gleague, opportunities with main team. Ryan and Rosas has been on completely new level working with JMac, Reid, Kelan Martin and Nowell. I hope that Vanderbilt will develop into rotation player next season.

Thibs is irrelevant to the discussion now, but I take your point that now these players are seeing the court as this years example. Point taken. However, there is no proof that would have happened so much without a ridiculous amount of injuries this season, and honestly that's not enough. You can't just plan to use Gleaguers as fodder when half your roster is injured and otherwise never entertain the thought that they could be more for your team. You can't just celebrate it in a half time graphic like I saw happen this year and let that be the final tale if one of those players absolutely ran with the moment and earned more. It could be the absolute best option for filling out your roster depth faster and more cheaply. But cheaply doesn't have to mean that low! If one of those Gleaguers steps up in that moment they get and shows you he's better than anyone dreamed he would be, possibly with a ceiling higher than many other players you have, or that other teams have, at that moment it's their job to make good on that realization and sign him before he gets away. Make good on those excellent previous choices to bring him into the fold through the Gleague route. After all, your team is always bleeding from lack of access to these top shelf game performers and everyone in the Gleague is working their tails off for one reason. To earn a chance to show something real at the next level and earn a job. But if getting that chance and lofting 67/50/100 in two starts isn't enough to trigger at the very least a small guaranteed contract than nothing probably ever will be for this team and now everyone on your Gleague team just realized what a waste of time it's all been.

[minimus]

Jedzz, you simply don't understand that simple fact, that we should not overpay players just to not see them go, especially role players and unproven players. Accept this simple fact. You hate Rosas for Nowell deal and negotiation process that Rosas started with Nowell agent. But I actually happy that we have Rosas as GM. You don't see why Thibs comparison is valid in our discussion, well, Tom operated the same non GM values you operate when he signed all those players. He tried to buy loyalty by overpaying players because as coach he had to deal with them later in everyday coaching activities. Imagine Butler after he didn't not get that money from Thibs, Jimmy went crazy during practice in front of Thibs and Layden. It doesn't work this way. GM must work on long-term plans based on team interest. Heck, Ainge traded IT4 after Thomas played in playoffs after sister death, he was fans idol, he played through serious injury, but Thomas asked big money and got traded. I am not saying it was a good thing, but IT4 itself said that he understands Ainge and has no problem signing with BOS again.

You also forget that there are plenty of players who went undrafted, play in gleague, Europe, China and other league just to get once the opportunity JMac has to play in NBA. Not to mention NBA guys who are out of NBA for some reasons, even former top draft picks like OJ Mayo, Micharl Beasley etc. Or guys like Jeff Green, Ben McLemore etc. They all deserve a NBA opportunity, but not all of them get it. There are not enough money, roster spots, playing time for all of them.

Relax, that's GM work to deal with such situations. I am not sure if JMac will be back next season, even if I hope to see him playing for us for many years, but I am sure Rosas will find the way to make our team better. With JMac or not. Because many situations don't even depend on JMac. Let say we draft Killian Hayes or trade for Booker/Beal. There simply won't be enough minutes behind DLo and another ballhandler, unless he signs for min.

[Jedzz]

Spoiler:

Ranking projected starting or high usage PGs around the league before this season according to this guy:
Shooting splts FG%/3FG%/FT%

30 rookie guess - off base
29 Isaiah Jamar Thomas
2018-19 STATS: 8.1ppg, 1.1rpg, 1.9apg, .4stl, 34.3%/27.9%/63% shooting splits, 7 PER, -.3 WS, -25 NET, -.3 VORP, -8.7 BPM
28 Terry Rozier
2018-19 STATS: 9ppg, 3.9rpg, 2.9apg, .9stl, 38.7%/35.3%/78.5% shooting splits, 12.9 PER, 3.2 WS, -2 NET, .6 VORP, -.7 BPM
27 - rookie guess - off base
26 Delon Wright
2018-19 STATS: 8.7ppg, 3.5rpg, 3.3apg, 1.2stl, 43.4%/29.8%/79.3% shooting splits, 15.5 PER, 4.3 WS, +3 NET, .8 VORP, 2.2 BPM
25 Dennis Smith Jr
2018-19 STATS: 13.6ppg, 2.9rpg, 4.8apg, 1.3stl, 42.8%/32.2%/63.5% shooting splits, 12.3 PER, 0 WS, -18 NET, -.1 VORP, -2.7 BPM
24 Lonzo Ball
2018-19 STATS: 9.9ppg, 5.3rpg, 5.4apg, 1.5stl, 40.6%/32.9%/41.7% shooting splits, 11.7 PER, 1.6 WS, -9 NET, .9 VORP, .5 BPM
23 Collin Sexton
2018-19 STATS: 16.7ppg, 2.9rpg, 3apg, .5stl, 43%/40.2%/83.9% shooting splits, 12 PER, -.6 WS, -20 NET, -2.1 VORP, -5.2 BPM
22 Avery Bradley
2018-19 STATS: 9.9ppg, 2.8rpg, 2.4apg, 1stl, 40.8%/35.1%/86% shooting splits, 7.6 PER, .3 WS, -17 NET, -.4 VORP, -2.8 BPM
21 Dejounte Murray
2017-18 STATS: 8.1ppg, 5.7rpg, 2.9apg, 1.2stl, 44.3%/26.5%/70.9% shooting splits, 15.1 PER, 3.2 WS, -2 NET, 1.4 VORP, 1.2 BPM
20 Jeff Teague
2018-19 STATS: 12.1ppg, 2.5rpg, 8.2apg, 1stl, 42.3%/33.3%/80.4% shooting splits, 15.4 PER, 2.2 WS, -4 NET, -.1 VORP, -2.4 BPM
19 Justise Winslow
2018-19 STATS: 12.6ppg, 5.4rpg, 4.3apg, 1.1stl, 43.3%/37.5%/62.8% shooting splits, 12.8 PER, 2.8 WS, -6 NET, 1 VORP, -.1 BPM
18 Ricky Rubio
2018-19 STATS: 12.7ppg, 3.6rpg, 6.1apg, 1.3stl, 40.4%/31.1%/85.5% shooting splits, 14 PER, 3.7 WS, -2 NET, .9 VORP, 0 BPM
17 D.J. Augustin
2018-19 STATS: 11.7ppg, 2.5rpg, 5.3apg, .6stl, 47%/42.1%/86.6% shooting splits, 15.7 PER, 6.9 WS, +10 NET, 1 VORP, -.3 BPM
16 Patrick Beverley
2018-19 STATS: 7.6ppg, 5rpg, 3.8apg, .9stl, 40.7%/39.7%/78% shooting splits, 11.8 PER, 4.8 WS, +8 NET, 2.3 VORP, 2.3 BPM
15 Reggie Jackson
2018-19 STATS: 15.4ppg, 2.6rpg, 4.2apg, .7stl, 42.1%/36.9%/86.4% shooting splits, 15.2 PER, 5 WS, -1 NET, 1 VORP, -.3 BPM
14 Malcolm Brogdon
2018-19 STATS: 15.6ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.2apg, .7stl, 50.5%/42.6%/92.8% shooting splits, 17.8 PER, 6.5 WS, +13 NET, 1.6 VORP, 1.5 BPM
13 Eric Bledsoe
2018-19 STATS: 15.9ppg, 4.6rpg, 5.5apg, 1.5stl, 48.4%/32.9%/75% shooting splits, 19.3 PER, 8.2 WS, +11 NET, 3.2 VORP, 3.5 BPM
12 Trae Young
2018-19 STATS: 19.1ppg, 3.7rpg, 8.1apg, .9stl, 41.8%/32.4%/82.9% shooting splits, 17 PER, 3.3 WS, -10 NET, .6 VORP, -1.1 BPM
11 Jamal Murray
2018-19 STATS: 18.2ppg, 4.2rpg, 4.8apg, .9stl, 43.7%/36.7%/84.8% shooting splits, 16 PER, 5.1 WS, -1 NET, 1.3 VORP, .1 BPM
10 De’Aaron Fox
2018-19 STATS: 17.3ppg, 3.8rpg, 7.3apg, 1.6stl, 45.8%/37.1%/72.7% shooting splits, 18.1 PER, 5.6 WS, -1 NET, 2 VORP, 1.1 BPM
09 Chris Paul
2018-19 STATS: 15.6ppg, 4.6rpg, 8.2apg, 2stl, 41.9%/35.8%/86.2% shooting splits, 19.7 PER, 6.6 WS, +9 NET, 2.4 VORP, 3 BPM
08 Ben Simmons
2018-19 STATS: 16.9ppg, 8.8rpg, 7.7apg, 1.4stl, 56.3%/0%/60% shooting splits, 20 PER, 8.2 WS, +6 NET, 4.1 VORP, 4.1 BPM
07 Mike Conley,
2018-19 STATS: 21.1ppg, 3.4rpg, 6.4apg, 1.3stl, 43.8%/36.4%/84.5% shooting splits, 21.4 PER, 8 WS, +6 NET, 3.2 VORP, 3.4 BPM
06 Kyle Lowry
2018-19 STATS: 14.2ppg, 4.8rpg, 8.7apg, 1.4stl, 41.1%/34.7%/83% shooting splits, 16.5 PER, 6.6 WS, +7 NET, 2.8 VORP, 3.1 BPM
05 Kemba Walker
2018-19 STATS: 25.6ppg, 4.4rpg, 5.9apg, 1.2 stl, 43.4%/35.6%/84.4% shooting splits, 21.7 PER, 7.4 WS, -2 NET, 3.9 VORP, 3.3 BPM
04 Russell Westbrook
2018-19 STATS: 22.9ppg, 11.1rpg, 10.7apg, 1.9stl, 42.8%/29%/65.6% shooting splits, 21.1 PER, 6.8 WS, +2 NET, 5.6 VORP, 6.5 BPM
03 Kyrie Irving
2018-19 STATS: 23.8ppg, 5rpg, 6.9apg, 1.5stl, 48.7%/40.1%/87.3% shooting splits, 24.3 PER, 9.1 WS, +10 NET, 4.7 VORP, 6.4 BPM
02 Damian Lillard
2018-19 STATS: 25.8ppg, 4.6rpg, 6.9apg, 1.1stl, 44.4%/36.9%/91.2% shooting splits, 23.7 PER, 12.1 WS, +9 NET, 5.4 VORP, 5.5 BPM
01 Stephen Curry
2018-19 STATS: 27.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 5.2apg, 1.3stl, 47.2%/43.7%/91.6% shooting splits, 24.4 PER, 9.7 WS, +10 NET, 4.9 VORP, 6.3 BPM


Rookie JMac 19-2020 splits:
2 games As starter: 19.5ppg(avg 35mins), 66.7%/.500%/100% shooting splits
28 games As Reserve: 6.8ppg(avg 18mins), 46.1%/36.8%/63.9% shooting split
Greater than or comparable to starters:

Mixed role: 7.6ppg, 1.6rpg, 4.2apg, 1.1 stl, 16.3 PER, 0.3 VORP, 0.3 BPM

Hollinger
39 rookies compared: # rank
#1 AST Ratio of rookies at 35.6 [Ja Morant #2 w/27.0]
#7 TS% of rookies at .587 (.770 as starter would be #1)
#6 PER of rookies at 16.3 [JaMorant #4 w/17.9]
#37 Rebound rate of rookies - [Morant 34, Nunn 35,Thybulle 38]
#9 Value Added 47.2 [Nunn #5 with 84.0, Thybulle #28 w/-12.4]

Confirming numbers and filling in gaps using Basketball Reference.

I doubt anyone is going to acknowledge what this is showing. "too small a sample size" "too short to believe it" "undrafted" "Gleague" "opponents didn't take him seriously" "that wasn't really kawhi getting beat" "he's so small they just didn't see him" "he used a trampolene to get over Capella" "what kind of magic cherry picking is this?" "8 dunks, "

[Jedzz]

Shot chart

@bball ref

Read on Twitter

?s=20

[Jedzz]

Jedzz, you simply don't understand that simple fact, that we should not overpay players just to not see them go,

it's not overpaying him to say he deserves a guaranteed deal like the rest of the NBA. He is that capable. We found that needle in the cheap haystack. But you are going overboard on how cheap you want players for. You simply don't get that. There is nothing expensive about paying a good PG backup 3 to 5 a season if he's good.

Relax, that's GM work to deal with such situations. I am not sure if JMac will be back next season, even if I hope to see him playing for us for many years, but I am sure Rosas will find the way to make our team better. With JMac or not. Because many situations don't even depend on JMac. Let say we draft Killian Hayes or trade for Booker/Beal. There simply won't be enough minutes behind DLo and another ballhandler, unless he signs for min.

Becaue Kilian Hayes is 100% proven right? Because Killian Hayes is going to be cheap? He's going to be a first round pick and if, IF IF IF he ends up as good as JMac it will cost a heck of a lot more to retain him beyond the rookie deal. What is the point? Just throw it all away for a slim chance he turns out to be what? More than JMac? A better shooter than 95% of all players right now? Because I just posted all the proof you should need that JMac is showing he can shoot like the starters of this league already as a rookie. But there is still hope Killian Hayes can be a plus defender, is that it? is that what makes him more valuable?

Here's what happens if they trade for Booker or Beal while retianing Towns and Dlo. They go over 90 million for 3 players. Before Covid the cap was 109. What it's going to be next year or for the next two years nobody knows right now. But let's say it still goes up to 114 instead of going down. After paying out 90 they will have 23million.

They are going to need cheaper but real talents. I still like the idea of Killian hayes and adding Gordon and the other thing. I hope the new owners like to spend deep.

[minimus]

Jedzz, you simply don't understand that simple fact, that we should not overpay players just to not see them go,

it's not overpaying him to say he deserves a guaranteed deal like the rest of the NBA. He is that capable. We found that needle in the cheap haystack. But you are going overboard on how cheap you want players for. You simply don't get that. There is nothing expensive about paying a good PG backup 3 to 5 a season if he's good.

Like I said, there are too many moving parts in JMac situation. Having him on Layman type deal as main backup PG is okay for me. Having him for 3-5mil per yer deal behind two lead ballhanlders is an overpay. And once again there is a big chance that JMac will be a solid PG in NBA for years, but his stats is a small sample size, he will not scare anyone in defense. His best skills is balance between scoring and involving others, but his jumpshot is not the fastest. Opponents did not pay much attention to him this season. So please dont create drama around JMac and Nowell. That is an ordinary situation in NBA.

Relax, that's GM work to deal with such situations. I am not sure if JMac will be back next season, even if I hope to see him playing for us for many years, but I am sure Rosas will find the way to make our team better. With JMac or not. Because many situations don't even depend on JMac. Let say we draft Killian Hayes or trade for Booker/Beal. There simply won't be enough minutes behind DLo and another ballhandler, unless he signs for min.

Becaue Kilian Hayes is 100% proven right? Because Killian Hayes is going to be cheap? He's going to be a first round pick and if, IF IF IF he ends up as good as JMac it will cost a heck of a lot more to retain him beyond the rookie deal. What is the point? Just throw it all away for a slim chance he turns out to be what? More than JMac? A better shooter than 95% of all players right now? Because I just posted all the proof you should need that JMac is showing he can shoot like the starters of this league already as a rookie. But there is still hope Killian Hayes can be a plus defender, is that it? is that what makes him more valuable?

Here's what happens if they trade for Booker or Beal while retianing Towns and Dlo. They go over 90 million for 3 players. Before Covid the cap was 109. What it's going to be next year or for the next two years nobody knows right now. But let's say it still goes up to 114 instead of going down. After paying out 90 they will have 23million.

They are going to need cheaper but real talents. I still like the idea of Killian hayes and adding Gordon and the other thing. I hope the new owners like to spend deep.

Take it easy, Jedzz. This world is not perfect. NBA tried to protect such players as JMac, they introduced two way contracts, but current CBA has divided even more star players, star prospect and role players. This is how capitalism work. In Kazakstan I was earning 10(!!!) time less than now here in Germany, working for the same customer with the same tools, having same skills. At the end of the day, even one guaranteed year of Hinkie deal is more than I can ever earn.

Lets take Killian Hayes example. It is pretty clear that any GM in NBA would take him over JMac. You pay for this star potential. Any GM world trade before draft JMac on 3-5mil deal for Killian Hayes.

[Klomp]

I think there's a very simple, easy 1-to-1 comparison people are missing when it comes to Jordan McLaughlin.....while not an exact replica of the situation, it's pretty dang close.

-Undrafted
-Spent a lot of time his first year out of college in the G League (unlike JMac, he did play in NBA games)
-Signed to a 1+1 deal (I'd argue it's the two-way deal of its time)
-Picked up off waivers by new team
-Only played 55 minutes through the first 23 games
-Team lost 11 of its previous 13 games before putting him in the lineup
-In first extended minutes, put up 25 points and 7 assists
-Finished season averaging 15/6 in 35 games (25 starts)
-Restricted free agent after season

Have you figured out who I'm talking about yet?

In restricted free agency, he was offered a 3/25 deal by another club. Did they make a mistake by not matching? Did the new team make a mistake by offering that contract? His old fan base was pissed that their team let him go, because he was destined for stardom supposedly. In two seasons with the new team, he was a full-time starter one year and averaged 13/5 over the two years but eventually got benched on teams that were first-round exits.

Still haven't figured it out?

Spoiler:

When the New York Knicks confirmed Tuesday evening that they had decided not to match the three-year, $25.1 million offer sheet tendered by the Houston Rockets to restricted free-agent point guard Jeremy Lin, many fans expressed sadness at what they viewed as the too-soon conclusion of Lin's brief, remarkably eventful tenure in Manhattan. (This one included.) Many others stood fast against that emotional tide, though, arguing that this was a logic-based decision predicated on the financial reality that Knicks owner and Madison Square Garden chairman James Dolan simply couldn't agree to pay a still-unproven commodity with a rotation-player resume just 26 games long a whopping $14.9 million for one year of work three years from now.

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ball-dont-lie/jeremy-lin-knicks-james-dolan-betrayed-deceived-161820611--nba.html

[KGdaBom]

...

Jedzz, I literally dont understand when you write many sentences. That is just too much for me to follow your idea. I dont ignore you, I simply dont understand your massive posts. In russian we say "краткость сестра таланта", which means "brevity is the soul of wit".

P.S. But I understand when you said me BS. That was easy.

I love that saying Minimus
When people start writing books I seldom complete reading them.

[KGdaBom]

Why on earth is JMac only able to be signed to a 1+3 in your opinon, and if he can't we must look for other more expensive options?

I am not saying that JMac MUST sign that offer, nor that we MUST sign him to 1+3 offer. I think we SHOULD give 1+3 contracts to unproven players. I actually wrote that we should have given that offer to JMac LAST offseason, in order to retain him now.

I will give you one example. Tyus Jones contract. I loved him as MIN player. He put some incredible stats, he is a local guy. But he got 27mil/3yrs deal. Full MLE. I was mad at Rosas to see Tyus go. But. MEM can afford paying Tyus that money, because Ja is on rookie deal. We cant afford paying that money, because we are paying DLo rookie max deal. Right now, in difficult corona situation, I am happy for Tyus, and I am happy that MIN did not match that offer. Win-win. Talent will find the way and hard work will be paid.

Same rule should be applied to JMac, Beasley, Juancho and any other FA. We MUST learn from Thibs mistakes: develop young players, use EVERY leverage as GM to construct team friendly contracts.

24yo Kendrick Nunn has shown way more than JMac, and will be paid 1.5mil next season for a reason.

Now answer please my question:

As GM, would rather have two Jacob Evans contracts for 2020-21 season or one Jacob Evans contract and one Nowell contract?

If you are just talking about the size of his contract vs the size of Nowell's 1+3? Who wouldn't prefer the the latter? But you are again only talking about the contracts. You aren't asking about what players you want or what they can do on the court. Who the players are and what they can do matters to me. I wouldn't pay Evans his deal at all. Meawhile I would have paid Nowell a little more in a guaranteed two year deal and played him more for a better test.

About your previous answers:
I diagree about the Tyus example being even remotely the same to JMac. The level of play the two players is not comparable. The style they play with is really incomparable. Only the BBIQ and general small size are relateable. If you want to use Tyus as an example, fine, but even you mentioned what Memphis paid him. I believe that was an overpay for Tyus. Happy for him, but 9.yr is alot. 1.6/yr guaranteed for 2+1+1 is what he played for here. What Memphis did however with that contract is show him they were committing to use him and that's pretty important.

I don't think JMac has to be offered so much even though I think his ceiling offensively is way higher. But there is a huge area between an unguaranteed 1+3 joke deal compared to a full MLE. I don't know if his initial two way deal leaves him open to still signing a rookie level minimum deal or not. But if he can, a lousy Hinkie deal could be <1mm/yr + 3 followup years and none guaranteed. The same kind of junk that people were frowning on years ago. Example:

According to several NBA agents, Philadelphia 76ers GM Sam Hinkie, a former Executive Vice President under Daryl Morey in Houston, has offered many young players unfair, non-guaranteed contracts. And the deals have rubbed many around the league the wrong way. (Ex. Chandler Parsons)

Jake Fischer
Jun 26, 2015
Si.com

Hinkie deals aren't a great way to be known for dealing with players around this league.

Clearly we understand where Rosas came from. Nowell already got leveraged into a lousy 1+3 and his chances of proving anything here are next to nil with the amount of court time they are looking to give him. And what do they care, they've almost put nothing into that deal and they can now cut him free before the next season if they need to shave under a lux line or something. It was a waste to even draft him if that ends up the case.

If JMac is much more of a player than Tyus Jones is, and I fully believe his top end is much higher, then why would a 3 or 4 year deal, guaranteed, at 3-5 million be out of the question? If they could lock in a hard working and truly skilled player for a depth role longterm for 3 or 4 mil/season why wouldn't you? 4 for 3 years? 12 million for 3 years of service as backup PG. Position solidified. Dlo/JMac/ then whoever...The fact that it's only been one partial season of play is the great part about it. That keeps you from having to offer more, but at least you will offer a fair deal with low guaranteed amounts. It will tell him he has a home here for a bit and that hard work pays off. Something you want all players thinking. Then if he proves more to Wolves and league after a short 3 year deal he can try to go after more.

I'm with you on making a better offer than 1+3. I do believe that J Mac can be the backup PG allowing us to invest our draft and FA capital into PF first SF second and then perhaps Campazzo third.

[KGdaBom]

JJ Barea - with Wolves

6th year in the league:

Year 1: (41 games, 11 starts, arguably his best year with Wolves)
.400 FG, .371 3FG, .415 2FG, 5.7 assists, .5 Steal, 0 Block, 11.3 pts

JMac accuracy is much better.

Year 2: (74 games, 2 starts)
.417 FG, .346 3FG, .458 2FG, 4 assists, .4 Steal, 0 Block, 11.3 pts

JMac accuracy is much better.

Year 3: (79 games, 1 start)
.387 FG, .316 3FG, .426 2FG, 3.8 assists, .3 Steal, 0 Block, 8.4 pts

JMac accuracy is much better.

During this time frame, I think JJ Barea was making 4.75mm from Wolves per season. They also had rookie Rubio when JJ came, and Like Ridnour making 12 million over a three year span during this time so 4mm/yr. Luke was moved before Barea's final year as that is when Alexey Shved came aboard for 3mm/yr. We are talking about 2012 to 2014 timeframe where they were paying backup PGs 3-4 million, 6 years ago. This is probably why Tyus said goodbye after the 3.5 QO after the 18-19 season.

I hated Barea and a lot of my reason wasn't his fault. Rubio would play great for over 90% of the game then Adelman would bring in Barea to close out the game and he would pull defeat out the jaws of certain victory by running around like a chicken with his head cut off. My other reason to hate him is he dated and knocked up possibly the hottest woman on the planet Zuleyka Rivera (the girl from the Despacito video) then dumped her.

[KGdaBom]

Jedzz, I appreciate your effort, but there is no reason to write multiple posts. I have troubles with English, but I am not stupid. My point is that team interest is over individual, that's why we should avoid bad contracts. There also might be a case when a player leaves team because he gets paid elsewhere, there is no reason to create a drama around it.

With regard to Tyus situation, you lost context. MEM paid him to stabilize bench, speed up team rebuild. Now they are in playoff zone, and they look much better than us. I think MEM did well in this situation. Just like Rosas.

With regard to Hinkie deal. Amount of money and structure can be negotiated. And in my opinion it MUST be negotiated, unless you sign a proven player. Sorry, but with all respect, JMac is not a proven player yet. Layman got 11mil/3yrs and got injured for almost half of season. Nowell had terrible year. But Rosas signed them to team friendly deals, we can live with it without rushing anything, without waiving or trading them.. That is his vision in a nutshell.

Minimus it would be great for our team if all of our players were on League minimum deals, but that isn't reality. J Mac deserves IMO at least a 3 million per year 3 year offer. If we go totally cheapskate on him I can't imagine he stays with us.

[KGdaBom]

[
I am not saying that JMac MUST sign that offer, nor that we MUST sign him to 1+3 offer. I think we SHOULD give 1+3 contracts to unproven players. I actually wrote that we should have given that offer to JMac LAST offseason, in order to retain him now.

I didn't suggest that you said he must sign, or that we must sign him to a 1+3. I commented on the fact you proposed that at most they should offer him is a 1+3 Hinkie and if that's not enough to get him to sign then to choose other players for options b,c,d,e as alternative options.

My point of contention is the limit you are applying to what he could be offered here/should be offered. I remember you posting last offseason or at least mid season this year that they should offer a 1+3 to cheaply retain him and Iagree they should have earlier offered him something (not that I agree with using 1+3s at all), but you have also very recently said that's the limit again. My point is that his play has proven a much higher ceiling level is possible very early in his career. Your opinion appears to be that he's still unproven. To which I've tried to ask you and others what amount of time served is going to be enough to believe what he's doing is real, and where exactly he's supposed to get more time from if we start drafting players to take that playing time of his downwards. I hope this clears up any confusion.

I believe that even now, Rosas should start negotiating with 1+3 deal, with amount slightly more Nowell deal. It will start negotiation, because it is a process. Remember, that JMac owes that opportunity to MIN, when no one else gave him a chance even for 2way contract. The problem with Thibs was that he never believed in rookies, never gave them a real chance in NBA. JMac got everything in MIN as two way prospect: opportunities in gleague, opportunities with main team. Ryan and Rosas has been on completely new level working with JMac, Reid, Kelan Martin and Nowell. I hope that Vanderbilt will develop into rotation player next season.

That's what we refer to in America as a load of crock. Thibs was totally fair to rookies. If anything he gave them more time than they deserved.

[KGdaBom]

Jedzz, you simply don't understand that simple fact, that we should not overpay players just to not see them go, especially role players and unproven players. Accept this simple fact. You hate Rosas for Nowell deal and negotiation process that Rosas started with Nowell agent. But I actually happy that we have Rosas as GM. You don't see why Thibs comparison is valid in our discussion, well, Tom operated the same non GM values you operate when he signed all those players. He tried to buy loyalty by overpaying players because as coach he had to deal with them later in everyday coaching activities. Imagine Butler after he didn't not get that money from Thibs, Jimmy went crazy during practice in front of Thibs and Layden. It doesn't work this way. GM must work on long-term plans based on team interest. Heck, Ainge traded IT4 after Thomas played in playoffs after sister death, he was fans idol, he played through serious injury, but Thomas asked big money and got traded. I am not saying it was a good thing, but IT4 itself said that he understands Ainge and has no problem signing with BOS again.

You also forget that there are plenty of players who went undrafted, play in gleague, Europe, China and other league just to get once the opportunity JMac has to play in NBA. Not to mention NBA guys who are out of NBA for some reasons, even former top draft picks like OJ Mayo, Micharl Beasley etc. Or guys like Jeff Green, Ben McLemore etc. They all deserve a NBA opportunity, but not all of them get it. There are not enough money, roster spots, playing time for all of them.

Relax, that's GM work to deal with such situations. I am not sure if JMac will be back next season, even if I hope to see him playing for us for many years, but I am sure Rosas will find the way to make our team better. With JMac or not. Because many situations don't even depend on JMac. Let say we draft Killian Hayes or trade for Booker/Beal. There simply won't be enough minutes behind DLo and another ballhandler, unless he signs for min.

Minimus Jedzz is not now nor has he ever advocated giving away the farm "IE overpaying players" . It is not good business if Rosas lowballs every player and let's them walk.

[Klomp]

To be honest, it's very possible that we won't be able to get McLaughlin on a 1+3. At least not right away. He's gonna probably want to see what the market says he's worth. If a team offers him closer to $3-4 million and Campazzo would take $5-6 million, what direction would you all prefer? At that point, we may only be able to keep one in that situation. Is it all about the bottom line, or is the talent gap wide enough to where Campazzo becomes a better value than McLaughlin? These are the types of decisions the front office will face. It's not just a simple "We like him, we'll pay him no matter what" and deal with the consequences later. That's how Thibs and other previous front offices here ran things, and that's how you get into financial struggles when trying to build a good team.

[minimus]

I think there's a very simple, easy 1-to-1 comparison people are missing when it comes to Jordan McLaughlin.....while not an exact replica of the situation, it's pretty dang close.

-Undrafted
-Spent a lot of time his first year out of college in the G League (unlike JMac, he did play in NBA games)
-Signed to a 1+1 deal (I'd argue it's the two-way deal of its time)
-Picked up off waivers by new team
-Only played 55 minutes through the first 23 games
-Team lost 11 of its previous 13 games before putting him in the lineup
-In first extended minutes, put up 25 points and 7 assists
-Finished season averaging 15/6 in 35 games (25 starts)
-Restricted free agent after season

Have you figured out who I'm talking about yet?

In restricted free agency, he was offered a 3/25 deal by another club. Did they make a mistake by not matching? Did the new team make a mistake by offering that contract? His old fan base was pissed that their team let him go, because he was destined for stardom supposedly. In two seasons with the new team, he was a full-time starter one year and averaged 13/5 over the two years but eventually got benched on teams that were first-round exits.

Still haven't figured it out?

Spoiler:

When the New York Knicks confirmed Tuesday evening that they had decided not to match the three-year, $25.1 million offer sheet tendered by the Houston Rockets to restricted free-agent point guard Jeremy Lin, many fans expressed sadness at what they viewed as the too-soon conclusion of Lin&#39;s brief, remarkably eventful tenure in Manhattan. (This one included.) Many others stood fast against that emotional tide, though, arguing that this was a logic-based decision predicated on the financial reality that Knicks owner and Madison Square Garden chairman James Dolan simply couldn&#39;t agree to pay a still-unproven commodity with a rotation-player resume just 26 games long a whopping $14.9 million for one year of work three years from now.

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ball-dont-lie/jeremy-lin-knicks-james-dolan-betrayed-deceived-161820611--nba.html

To add some context. One of the reasons why HOU gave that big contract to Lin was growing chinese fanbase after Yao Ming era. Which was successfully killed with one tweet from Morey, the most expensive tweet in NBA history.

With regard to Lin contract, it was 5+5+15 deal. Guess what? Morey traded him before 3rd season in order to not to pay 15mil.

[minimus]

I didn't suggest that you said he must sign, or that we must sign him to a 1+3. I commented on the fact you proposed that at most they should offer him is a 1+3 Hinkie and if that's not enough to get him to sign then to choose other players for options b,c,d,e as alternative options.

My point of contention is the limit you are applying to what he could be offered here/should be offered. I remember you posting last offseason or at least mid season this year that they should offer a 1+3 to cheaply retain him and Iagree they should have earlier offered him something (not that I agree with using 1+3s at all), but you have also very recently said that's the limit again. My point is that his play has proven a much higher ceiling level is possible very early in his career. Your opinion appears to be that he's still unproven. To which I've tried to ask you and others what amount of time served is going to be enough to believe what he's doing is real, and where exactly he's supposed to get more time from if we start drafting players to take that playing time of his downwards. I hope this clears up any confusion.

I believe that even now, Rosas should start negotiating with 1+3 deal, with amount slightly more Nowell deal. It will start negotiation, because it is a process. Remember, that JMac owes that opportunity to MIN, when no one else gave him a chance even for 2way contract. The problem with Thibs was that he never believed in rookies, never gave them a real chance in NBA. JMac got everything in MIN as two way prospect: opportunities in gleague, opportunities with main team. Ryan and Rosas has been on completely new level working with JMac, Reid, Kelan Martin and Nowell. I hope that Vanderbilt will develop into rotation player next season.

That's what we refer to in America as a load of crock. Thibs was totally fair to rookies. If anything he gave them more time than they deserved.

We can say for sure that Thibs drafted Dunn, Patton, Okogie, KBD. Neither of them become even an NBA starter. His rotation is set in stone, there is only one way to crack it, injury or trade. If you refer to Jimmy Butler then you should know that Jimmy got those five games in Bulls as starter when Deng went down (Rose was already out). Moreover, before that Deng repeatedly went to Thibs praising young rookie. No effect. Sounds familiar, right? Teague was saying same things about Tyus Jones. At some point, Tyus had insane numbers as starter, and it made a lot of sense to promote him as low usage starter, pass-first defensive minded PG. Imagine KAT-Gibson-Wiggins-Butler-Jones lineup. It did not happen. Good luck to NYK with developing young players. Thibs rotation is not based on "give a rookie what he deserves". Did not Butler deserve playing time before and after Deng injury? Did not Tyus deserve playing time over Teague? No young player in MIN got better because of Thibs. KAT got much better despite of Thibs rotations and schemes. Same with Tyus, Wiggins regressed. Thibs traded away Rubio, Dunn, LaVine, Patton. Brought here declined veterans, instead of installing development process. That's was his vision. Threw young players off or under bus and see if they can survive. Don't build relationships, control every their move. Even from sidelines, scream everything they must do. Every freaking minute.

[KGdaBom]

I believe that even now, Rosas should start negotiating with 1+3 deal, with amount slightly more Nowell deal. It will start negotiation, because it is a process. Remember, that JMac owes that opportunity to MIN, when no one else gave him a chance even for 2way contract. The problem with Thibs was that he never believed in rookies, never gave them a real chance in NBA. JMac got everything in MIN as two way prospect: opportunities in gleague, opportunities with main team. Ryan and Rosas has been on completely new level working with JMac, Reid, Kelan Martin and Nowell. I hope that Vanderbilt will develop into rotation player next season.

That's what we refer to in America as a load of crock. Thibs was totally fair to rookies. If anything he gave them more time than they deserved.

We can say for sure that Thibs drafted Dunn, Patton, Okogie, KBD. Neither of them become even an NBA starter. His rotation is set in stone, there is only one way to crack it, injury or trade. If you refer to Jimmy Butler then you should know that Jimmy got those five games in Bulls as starter when Deng went down (Rose was already out). Moreover, before that Deng repeatedly went to Thibs praising young rookie. No effect. Sounds familiar, right? Teague was saying same things about Tyus Jones. At some point, Tyus had insane numbers as starter, and it made a lot of sense to promote him as low usage starter, pass-first defensive minded PG. Imagine KAT-Gibson-Wiggins-Butler-Jones lineup. It did not happen. Good luck to NYK with developing young players. Thibs rotation is not based on "give a rookie what he deserves". Did not Butler deserve playing time before and after Deng injury? Did not Tyus deserve playing time over Teague? No young player in MIN got better because of Thibs. KAT got much better despite of Thibs rotations and schemes. Same with Tyus, Wiggins regressed. Thibs traded away Rubio, Dunn, LaVine, Patton. Brought here declined veterans, instead of installing development process. That's was his vision. Threw young players off or under bus and see if they can survive. Don't build relationships, control every their move. Even from sidelines, scream everything they must do. Every freaking minute.

"краткость сестра таланта"
You have your right to be wrong. Thibs always gave his rookies as much or more time than they earned. Tyus was never in the same realm of Teague as a player.