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2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II

Moderators: Domejandro, Calinks, Worm Guts

Who should Minnesota Pick at #1 (Assuming Minnesota keeps the pick)?

Anthony Edwards
41
41%
LaMelo Ball
24
24%
James Wiseman
35
35%
 
Total votes: 100

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1401 » by minimus » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:38 pm

shangrila wrote:
Neeva wrote:I aee Vessell falling hard now, but i dont even know if I take him at 17...

Seriously? I'd take him and run at 17. You can't teach his defensive instincts.


His shooting form is awful
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1402 » by shangrila » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:39 pm

minimus wrote:
shangrila wrote:
Neeva wrote:I aee Vessell falling hard now, but i dont even know if I take him at 17...

Seriously? I'd take him and run at 17. You can't teach his defensive instincts.


His shooting form is awful

And that's fixable.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1403 » by minimus » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:40 pm

shangrila wrote:
minimus wrote:
shangrila wrote:Seriously? I'd take him and run at 17. You can't teach his defensive instincts.


His shooting form is awful

And that's fixable.


Hardly doubt
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1404 » by Neeva » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:42 pm

Jedzz wrote:
Neeva wrote:I aee Vessell falling hard now, but i dont even know if I take him at 17...
\


:lol: to the undrafted bin!



Someone will take a chance on him in the first I am sure but did you even look at that workout clip? His form
And shot looked scarily Fultz-like and he is not good ballhandler or offense creator plus he looks weak. Gotta look past the boxscores on this one.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1405 » by shangrila » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:45 pm

Domejandro wrote:As somebody who has actually watched tape on LaMelo Ball, the repeatedly lame talking points surrounding his potential are killing me. I have explained it multiple times, but the dude objectively has an incredibly intriguing skillset, as a player. Dude is a passing phenom, creative finisher, has a pretty floater, and isn't the guaranteed defensive atrocity that people keep lazily assuming (he is bad because of technique, but has had flashes).

What is particularly intriguing is that, until his time in Australia, he had never received any real basketball training (dude didn't even perform a three-man weave, up until that point). His form is an atrocity, but it is encouraging that he is willing to shoot the ball; even becoming a mediocre shooter would immediately propel him to being a solid player.

There is certainly bust potential, but there is a reason why teams are interested in him. LaMelo Ball has MASSIVE flaws, but if there was not the background noise of his father existing, basketball fans would be far less ridiculous with their takes on him.

See, I don't buy the hype about his finishing.

I saw a handful of his games and he never struck me as a good finisher or even someone with great touch. He constantly whiffed on layups, mainly because he had to double pump, change hands, behind the back every single one of them, but even on basic ones he would just...fail. It's been the most disconcerting part of him as a prospect to me and something that makes me feel crazy because it seems I'm the only one who notices it.

I mean, defence I agree isn't as bad as people have made out, the shooting could get to average, forcing passes and poor decision making should refine with time. But the touch around the rim? That'll be harder. You'll have to break him out of the mindset he developed for years about making it look as pretty as possible for the 'gram instead of ensuring it actually goes in.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1406 » by Neeva » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:49 pm

shangrila wrote:
Neeva wrote:I aee Vessell falling hard now, but i dont even know if I take him at 17...

Seriously? I'd take him and run at 17. You can't teach his defensive instincts.


But Okogie and Culver have the same strengths ? It really depends on who is left at 17 .
I expect at least 3 players of the group of Vessell, Terry, Maxey, Saddiq Bey, Pokusevski and Anthony to be on board at 17, it will be a tough decision for Rosas.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1407 » by Jedzz » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:53 pm

Klomp wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Domejandro wrote: LaMelo Ball has MASSIVE flaws, but if there was not the background noise of his father existing, basketball fans would be far less ridiculous with their takes on him.

Because he would be an undrafted project and people wouldn't have to describe how sickoning it is to risk a #1 overall on such a project?

This is exactly the type of talk Domejandro is talking about. Zero chance LaMelo would go undrafted.


Why is that? Instagram? This dichotemy of our choices is what I'm always talking about. For you to argue his value, you have to claim he's worth a #1 and force us to claim he's not even draftable if we are going to argue against choosing him #1. Is it possible he's a much more palatable pick at #17? Why not? Because someone will take him at 9th before out pick? Oh well, let them train him up for three years. We can always get them later. Like you said, we shouldn't be expecting these top players to stick around a team longterm.

Anyway, am I supposed to believe your evaluations of him? Or how about the countless internet eval gurus who seem to randomly all latch onto the same busts every year and no one loses their job over those. Safety in numbers I suppose. Did you tell everyone how Nunn and Robinson should have been drafted in their recent drafts where nobody picked them? Are we supposed to believe the Heat just pick random undrafted players and instill instant deep run playoff skills into them?

Right now, the Wolves had JMac who easily has more complete basketball skills then most of our roster and he had them coming out of college already. Undrafted. Still have people that believe he's nothing.

These players that have no refined skills to help teams with are projects. Drafting them and then thinking about them like future trade values at minimum that you must maintain is just the wrong way to operate. It's a risk to that player, and your team that I personally would avoid with a #1 overall pick.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1408 » by Jedzz » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:54 pm

Neeva wrote:
shangrila wrote:
Neeva wrote:I aee Vessell falling hard now, but i dont even know if I take him at 17...

Seriously? I'd take him and run at 17. You can't teach his defensive instincts.


But Okogie and Culver have the same strengths ? It really depends on who is left at 17 .
I expect at least 3 players of the group of Vessell, Terry, Maxey, Saddiq Bey, Pokusevski and Anthony to be on board at 17, it will be a tough decision for Rosas.


That list of players haven't all shown the same abilities so far. Just saying.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1409 » by Neeva » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:57 pm

shangrila wrote:
Domejandro wrote:As somebody who has actually watched tape on LaMelo Ball, the repeatedly lame talking points surrounding his potential are killing me. I have explained it multiple times, but the dude objectively has an incredibly intriguing skillset, as a player. Dude is a passing phenom, creative finisher, has a pretty floater, and isn't the guaranteed defensive atrocity that people keep lazily assuming (he is bad because of technique, but has had flashes).

What is particularly intriguing is that, until his time in Australia, he had never received any real basketball training (dude didn't even perform a three-man weave, up until that point). His form is an atrocity, but it is encouraging that he is willing to shoot the ball; even becoming a mediocre shooter would immediately propel him to being a solid player.

There is certainly bust potential, but there is a reason why teams are interested in him. LaMelo Ball has MASSIVE flaws, but if there was not the background noise of his father existing, basketball fans would be far less ridiculous with their takes on him.

See, I don't buy the hype about his finishing.

I saw a handful of his games and he never struck me as a good finisher or even someone with great touch. He constantly whiffed on layups, mainly because he had to double pump, change hands, behind the back every single one of them, but even on basic ones he would just...fail. It's been the most disconcerting part of him as a prospect to me and something that makes me feel crazy because it seems I'm the only one who notices it.

I mean, defence I agree isn't as bad as people have made out, the shooting could get to average, forcing passes and poor decision making should refine with time. But the touch around the rim? That'll be harder. You'll have to break him out of the mindset he developed for years about making it look as pretty as possible for the 'gram instead of ensuring it actually goes in.


He does things you can’t teach as a pg/floor general though but he does need good coaching and development to become a league star, do wolves have that??
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1410 » by jpatrick » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:04 pm

Domejandro wrote:As somebody who has actually watched tape on LaMelo Ball, the repeatedly lame talking points surrounding his potential are killing me. I have explained it multiple times, but the dude objectively has an incredibly intriguing skillset, as a player. Dude is a passing phenom, creative finisher, has a pretty floater, and isn't the guaranteed defensive atrocity that people keep lazily assuming (he is bad because of technique, but has had flashes).

What is particularly intriguing is that, until his time in Australia, he had never received any real basketball training (dude didn't even perform a three-man weave, up until that point). His form is an atrocity, but it is encouraging that he is willing to shoot the ball; even becoming a mediocre shooter would immediately propel him to being a solid player.

There is certainly bust potential, but there is a reason why teams are interested in him. LaMelo Ball has MASSIVE flaws, but if there was not the background noise of his father existing, basketball fans would be far less ridiculous with their takes on him.


This is exactly how I feel. Look at the context. He hadn’t ever played in a real system in his life because of his dad. He’s thrown into a physical, grown mans league. Is it as good as the Euroleague? No but it’s a significant step up from your college. He struggles the first six games or so as he makes this huge adjustment in physicality, to a new system, and a new country, tanking his percentages. Than he is pretty dominate for a 4-5 game stretch before struggling in his final game while playing injured.

Go watch his games, not the stats. They are on online in their entirety. He had massive holes but he also had by far the greatest star potential to me.

And that video of him throwing up half counters and such? That was from when he was 14 and more a product of his dad, not him.

I think we trade the pick in the end, but I’ll be pretty surprised if LaMelo doesn’t go #1 to whoever makes that pick.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1411 » by jpatrick » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:14 pm

Just saw the Vassell video. He always had an unorthodox form, which made me question if it would translate to NBA distance, defender length, and shooting off movement, but it looks even worse now. If that was his response to generate more power to make the NBA 3, it’s not going to work.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1412 » by minimus » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:24 pm

jpatrick wrote:Just saw the Vassell video. He always had an unorthodox form, which made me question if it would translate to NBA distance, defender length, and shooting off movement, but it looks even worse now. If that was his response to generate more power to make the NBA 3, it’s not going to work.


I believe that using lower point of release might help to adjust to NBA 3. I agree that in Vassell case trebuchet form will not work
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1413 » by Jedzz » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:13 am

Neeva wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Neeva wrote:I aee Vessell falling hard now, but i dont even know if I take him at 17...
\


:lol: to the undrafted bin!



Someone will take a chance on him in the first I am sure but did you even look at that workout clip? His form
And shot looked scarily Fultz-like and he is not good ballhandler or offense creator plus he looks weak.


He's not a point guard. He's a 6'7 SG/SF(WING) with a well rounded confident two way skill set and competitor. Weak? No. He's a 71st percentile finisher at the rim. He's defense is supposed to be better than his offense.


Neeva wrote: Gotta look past the boxscores on this one.


Nice trash posting in my opinion. I'm not biting on this line nor some 15 second clip of him supposedly showing a worse shooting style all of a sudden over all the college shooting he's proven already.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1414 » by Jedzz » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:01 am

jpatrick wrote:Just saw the Vassell video. He always had an unorthodox form, which made me question if it would translate to NBA distance, defender length, and shooting off movement, but it looks even worse now. If that was his response to generate more power to make the NBA 3, it’s not going to work.


oh my

You saw 15 seconds of what exactly? He was lauded for his proven college shooting, his consistent rise and high release over defenders and the arc on it. The averages backed that up. The very loaded and long highlight reels of him backed it up. I did not see this "workout clip" but I heard it was 15 seconds. I'm just besides myself reading some of these posts now.

The Warriors recently put out news that they would entertain even taking him at pick #2 if they can't trade down, probably trying to scare some teams below them that were already assuring themselves he would be available later. All this fake posturing makes me wonder what has occured here. I can't wait to get a look at this workout clip to see what you few are freaking out about and rewriting history for. I smell fake fried fish. Did someone post a high school clip or something?

1:14 on this clip if you want to get a good side profile look at him shooting. This is him consistently.



One game, what do you hate about this shot?


He reminds me of Herro who is always getting into open space and making himself available to the onball players while forcing tough closeouts for the defense. He'll make defenses pay if they don't rotate to him.


I hope the Wolves can trade down a few spots and still draft this kid. If stuck at 1 might just pull that trigger on him and walk away smiling. I just want to get that height confirmation from combine measurements. Can't trust college and draft talk measurements. But he looks long, it's said he has 6'10 wingspan, arms look longer yet. If they draft him, immediately trade Culver and/or Okogie plus #17 to trade up a bit for maybe Toppin choice?. Watch all the teams scrambling for their right to draft Ball/Edwards/Wiseman when Wolves pass on them with #1. Warriors might make a killing then but who cares.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1415 » by Jedzz » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:37 am

jpatrick wrote:
Go watch his games, not the stats. They are on online in their entirety. He had massive holes but he also had by far the greatest star potential to me.


Was he cleaning his shoes and showing off in Australia league? I hope he makes it and does well. If not, harlem globetrotters would be fun too.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1416 » by jpatrick » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:49 am

Jedzz wrote:
jpatrick wrote:
Go watch his games, not the stats. They are on online in their entirety. He had massive holes but he also had by far the greatest star potential to me.


Was he cleaning his shoes and showing off in Australia league? I hope he makes it and does well. If not, harlem globetrotters would be fun too.


You never did anything stupid when you were 14? Add in the idiocy his dad preaches, I’m surprised he and his brothers appear to now have their heads on as straight as they do.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1417 » by minimus » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:04 pm

Ty Terry and Vassell are two perfect examples of how one video of pre-draft workouts can affect your draft stock. For MIN, I don't think that we should consider Vassell if we trade down. I think we can get the same defense impact from Culver/Okogie duo, and his broken 3pt shot does not seem to be an NBA ready skill.

My favorite prospects right now outside of top5:

С - Xaiver Tillman / Killian Tillie

Tillman is the best defender, finisher at rim and elite passer among bigmen. Tillie is the best shooter among bigmen

PF - Poku / Saddiq Bey

Poku potential is intriguing. Bey is Jae Crowder type of PF.

SF - Josh Green

A bit undersized for SF position but he is an athletic wing who has 3&D potential.

SG - Tyrese Maxey / Grant Riller

Both are a bit undersized for SG, but both are crafty, savvy scorers. Maxey is also a good defender, while Riller might struggle at the NBA level as a defender.

PG - Kira Lewis Jr / Ty Terry

Kira Lewis Jr reminds me a lot Kyrie Irving. I did not understand why Kyrie was #1 pick, but Kira Lewis Jr has the same 'feel' for the game, some things cannot be taught. Ty Terry is a poor version of Seth Curry with better passing.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1418 » by Jedzz » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:38 pm

minimus wrote:Ty Terry and Vassell are two perfect examples of how one video of pre-draft workouts can affect your draft stock. For MIN, I don't think that we should consider Vassell if we trade down. I think we can get the same defense impact from Culver/Okogie duo, and his broken 3pt shot does not seem to be an NBA ready skill.

:lol: this makes me laugh this morning.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1419 » by Jedzz » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:39 pm

jpatrick wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
jpatrick wrote:
Go watch his games, not the stats. They are on online in their entirety. He had massive holes but he also had by far the greatest star potential to me.


Was he cleaning his shoes and showing off in Australia league? I hope he makes it and does well. If not, harlem globetrotters would be fun too.


You never did anything stupid when you were 14? Add in the idiocy his dad preaches, I’m surprised he and his brothers appear to now have their heads on as straight as they do.


Who's talking about 14. I asked if he's still doing things like that now.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft Prospects: Thread II 

Post#1420 » by jpatrick » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:13 pm

Jedzz wrote:
jpatrick wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Was he cleaning his shoes and showing off in Australia league? I hope he makes it and does well. If not, harlem globetrotters would be fun too.


You never did anything stupid when you were 14? Add in the idiocy his dad preaches, I’m surprised he and his brothers appear to now have their heads on as straight as they do.


Who's talking about 14. I asked if he's still doing things like that now.


And the answer is no. Game still has flash to it but from all accounts, he was a complete professional on and off the court. I think it helped that he was away from his dad, who didn’t stay in Australia, for the first time in his life.

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