ImageImageImage

Which Wolves Guard gets the boot?

Moderators: Domejandro, Calinks, Worm Guts

K4P
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,094
And1: 16,882
Joined: Aug 27, 2017
 

Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#1 » by K4P » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:34 am

With the Wolves having secured the first pick in the draft, it's safe to say there's a pretty good chance Anthony Edwards is their guy with his tools, upside, and overall value as a trade chip (assuming they don't trade the pick).

Post-draft night depth chart
_____________________________
D'Lo/ McLaughlin/ (17 or 33)
Beasley/Culver/
Okogie/Edwards/ Layman
Juancho/ Johnson/ Vanderbilt
Towns/ Reid/ (17 or 33)

All of them along with Kelan/Evans/Nowell if they're back. Assuming Beasley is locked up and Edwards will get plenty of run, there isn't really room for another 2 players that aren't true wings due to their lack of size (Okogie being 6'3 and Culver 6'5 with a 6'10 wingspan). A big part of defense the Wolves have been lacking is simply having the guy to match up with bigger wing creators like the Kawhis and Tatums of the league. A lack of minutes and/or being forced into spots they aren't suited for can hinder their development as players and isn't ideal. It's likely one of these guys ends up being dealt to make room.

Read on Twitter

__________________________________________________________________________________________________


Jarrett Culver
Image
2019/20 stats
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/culveja01.html
PROS
-- He's proven to be a pretty gritty defender with legitimately good hands and instincts for getting deflections and on-ball steals

--Possesses upside to be an on-ball facilitator that Okogie doesn't
Spoiler:
Read on Twitter

--Can still add muscle to his frame while maintaining on-ball fluidity
--has flashed some advanced offensive footwork that could shine in a more traditional half-court offense

CONS
--Jumpshot mechanics are UGLY from what we've seen (although he shot better from 3 post-deadline at 41%)
-- awful free throw shooter at sub-50%
-- struggled with confidence offensively for most of the year and even avoided contact at times

Culver would need A LOT of offensive improvement to become a quality starting wing. His value to the Wolves depends on how much they believe in him to achieve that. What is his on court value if he can't get his shot together?





____________________________________________________________________________
Josh Okogie
Image

2019/20 stats
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okogijo01.html

PROS
-- High level athlete who knows how to use his tools to affect the game
-- Top 5 free throw rate in the NBA (for non-Centers) behind Jimmy, Harden, Bam and Giannis
-- Great defender who has a knack for getting out and converting in transition after deflections/blocks

-- Good offensive rebounder
-- Moves well without the ball
-- Has good on court chemistry with KAT

CONS
-- Hasn't proven to be an even passable shooter in 2 seasons (career 27% shooter)
-- Lack of coordination and fluidity on-ball shows he doesn't ever project to be an offensive creator/facilitator
-- Can struggle to guard bigger wings due to his lack of size (6'4 in shoes)







I really enjoy Okogie's energy and defensive prowess, but is his upside enough to justify the Wolves sticking with him over Culver?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Obviously this problem isn't as pronounced if the Wolves do end up trading out of this draft, or picking someone other than Edwards or Lamelo with the first pick, but the prospect of including one of these guys in the next move to acquire a better fitting/more valuable asset remains on the front office's dashboard no doubt. Which Player do you have more faith in to be a high level contributor to the next competitive Wolves team?

Discuss...
Dewey
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,592
And1: 573
Joined: May 22, 2001

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#2 » by Dewey » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:52 am

Okogie’s energy is an undeniable asset, but his better performances really don’t seem to happen within the system (more rogue). Culver is a more system orientated guy that brings a little more diversity.

Both need to be more reliable shooters. Neither has proven to bring a natural leadership presence from my perspective.

What Culver does in year 2/3 remains unknown.
Flip response to Love wanting out, "He has no reason to be upset, you're either a part of the problem or a part of the solution"
Midw35t
Junior
Posts: 351
And1: 301
Joined: Jan 28, 2017
       

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#3 » by Midw35t » Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:32 am

I dont think you give up on either of them. They both already have a proven NBA skillset on one end, which is rare. And it is a skillset we severely lack overall as a team. They both have potential to be absolute terrors on D that you can stick on the opposing teams best guard. Even if they both have to come off the bench, they're valuable pieces for us moving forward.
I expect at least one to develop their scoring, and I'd lean Culver as his offensive feel is much better. Okogie will be a hell of a bench energy D guy as we solidify our starting lineup though.

I wouldn't mind seeing Okogie start at the 2 though and guard the better guard to hide Russell with Beasley and Culver off the bench together. Matchups pertaining of course.

Okogie does have a 7'1 wingspan which is fine for a wing, I just dont see him filling out much more. Culver I'm hopeful can and will be able to handle some SFs.

What we really need is one damn big who can play any D and a big wing who can matchup at all against the LeBrons and Kawhis of the league.
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 10,748
And1: 2,201
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#4 » by KGdaBom » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:43 pm

Midw35t wrote:I dont think you give up on either of them. They both already have a proven NBA skillset on one end, which is rare. And it is a skillset we severely lack overall as a team. They both have potential to be absolute terrors on D that you can stick on the opposing teams best guard. Even if they both have to come off the bench, they're valuable pieces for us moving forward.
I expect at least one to develop their scoring, and I'd lean Culver as his offensive feel is much better. Okogie will be a hell of a bench energy D guy as we solidify our starting lineup though.

I wouldn't mind seeing Okogie start at the 2 though and guard the better guard to hide Russell with Beasley and Culver off the bench together. Matchups pertaining of course.

Okogie does have a 7'1 wingspan which is fine for a wing, I just dont see him filling out much more. Culver I'm hopeful can and will be able to handle some SFs.

What we really need is one damn big who can play any D and a big wing who can matchup at all against the LeBrons and Kawhis of the league.

Okongwu can do both and Deni would try real hard to do the LeBron and Kawhi guarding, but really almost nobody can matchup against the LeBron's and Kawhi's of the league.
User avatar
packforfreedom
Veteran
Posts: 2,903
And1: 3,260
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
 

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#5 » by packforfreedom » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:47 pm

Trade Culver. I think he's a bust. Okogie plays bigger than his size and his combination of motor and defense makes him valuable to us.
Black Lives Matter
minimus
General Manager
Posts: 8,273
And1: 2,070
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#6 » by minimus » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:51 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
Midw35t wrote:I dont think you give up on either of them. They both already have a proven NBA skillset on one end, which is rare. And it is a skillset we severely lack overall as a team. They both have potential to be absolute terrors on D that you can stick on the opposing teams best guard. Even if they both have to come off the bench, they're valuable pieces for us moving forward.
I expect at least one to develop their scoring, and I'd lean Culver as his offensive feel is much better. Okogie will be a hell of a bench energy D guy as we solidify our starting lineup though.

I wouldn't mind seeing Okogie start at the 2 though and guard the better guard to hide Russell with Beasley and Culver off the bench together. Matchups pertaining of course.

Okogie does have a 7'1 wingspan which is fine for a wing, I just dont see him filling out much more. Culver I'm hopeful can and will be able to handle some SFs.

What we really need is one damn big who can play any D and a big wing who can matchup at all against the LeBrons and Kawhis of the league.
but really almost nobody can matchup against the LeBron's and Kawhi's of the league.


I agree that slowing down Giannis or Kawhi is mostly about team offense vs team defense thing. But I can name one defender who is pretty good at defending

Read on Twitter


https://www.libertyballers.com/2019/5/1/18524127/philadelphia-76ers-sixers-toronto-raptors-nba-playoffs-elite-defense-ben-simmons-value
Jedzz
General Manager
Posts: 8,327
And1: 1,751
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#7 » by Jedzz » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:03 am

As far as defending Kawhi...you can break his spirit. I saw it in the playoffs if you can burn him repeatedly. I also saw it from JMac doing it to him. Kawhi can be taken out of the game in this way almost to the point of him becoming a sulking hulk. Rare but I've seen it a few times now.

Kawhi has shown you can take someone like Lebron down a peg just climbing in his head. So anyone can be. Maybe nobody can stop some of these best talents defensively. But taking them off their best play somehow might be enough.
wolves_89
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,323
And1: 1,885
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
 

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#8 » by wolves_89 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:41 am

I don't have any doubts that both Culver and Okogie are NBA rotation players. The question for both is whether they can get to the point where they can shoot 35+% on open 3s. If they can do that they become really valuable building blocks, if not their ceilings are greatly diminished. With a long layoff I'm curious to see if one or both come back with improved shooting.
jpatrick
Veteran
Posts: 2,673
And1: 650
Joined: May 30, 2007
 

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#9 » by jpatrick » Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:50 am

If we draft Ball or Edwards, I think you have to trade one of Okogie or Culver if either has real value. Preferably for a true forward that can defend and shoot.
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 10,748
And1: 2,201
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#10 » by KGdaBom » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:58 am

The guard that's gone if we draft Edwards or Ball is probably Nowell.
Good chance he's gone if we don't draft Edwards or Ball. :lol:
Neeva
Veteran
Posts: 2,856
And1: 937
Joined: Jun 03, 2016

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#11 » by Neeva » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:55 am

jpatrick wrote:If we draft Ball or Edwards, I think you have to trade one of Okogie or Culver if either has real value. Preferably for a true forward that can defend and shoot.


I think Rosas keeps both but if he does trade one it’s gotta be Josh. Culver needs to recoup his value and he has potential to do so substantially. I am not sure Okogie can get his value higher than a first in the 20-28 range.
Rookie-Mistake
Senior
Posts: 564
And1: 174
Joined: Jun 27, 2008
         

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#12 » by Rookie-Mistake » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:15 am

I don't think it's safe to say we pick Edwards at 1. This front office is switched on. I hope we give more minutes to Kelan, I like the cut of his jib.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 10,748
And1: 2,201
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#13 » by KGdaBom » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:40 pm

Rookie-Mistake wrote:I don't think it's safe to say we pick Edwards at 1. This front office is switched on. I hope we give more minutes to Kelan, I like the cut of his jib.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using RealGM mobile app

Not much of a Kelan fan here. I hope it's not a lock we take Edwards as I prefer Wiseman, Okongwu and Deni.
minimus
General Manager
Posts: 8,273
And1: 2,070
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#14 » by minimus » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:25 pm

Rookie-Mistake wrote:I don't think it's safe to say we pick Edwards at 1. This front office is switched on. I hope we give more minutes to Kelan, I like the cut of his jib.


I think Kelan Martin might have same success as JMac, Reid last year. A lot of things to like about him.
Jedzz
General Manager
Posts: 8,327
And1: 1,751
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#15 » by Jedzz » Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:04 pm

This team won 19 games with Okogie and Culver playing significant minutes. I like most of Okogie's traits outside his shot, and though I wouldn't have drafted Culver but I wouldn't give up on him after one season once we did. But to be honest I don't see how the team gets much worse if they had to replace them. If anything they get better or stay the same joke they have been. These two have to be able to do more soon or the minutes have to drop.
shangrila
General Manager
Posts: 8,928
And1: 2,389
Joined: Dec 21, 2009
Location: Land of Aus
 

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#16 » by shangrila » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Either one or even both could go realistically. The only players I'd get attached to on this roster is KAT and DLo, everyone else is varying levels of trade bait.

That said I doubt either are being shopped or would get dumped even if the team drafted Edwards or Ball. I'd say the better question would be who loses minutes, which would be whoever hasn't learnt to shoot yet.
Jedzz
General Manager
Posts: 8,327
And1: 1,751
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#17 » by Jedzz » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:18 pm

shangrila wrote:Either one or even both could go realistically. The only players I'd get attached to on this roster is KAT and DLo, everyone else is varying levels of trade bait.

That said I doubt either are being shopped or would get dumped even if the team drafted Edwards or Ball. I'd say the better question would be who loses minutes, which would be whoever hasn't learnt to shoot yet.


Right. And it's likely one of the former two way guys gone if another guard is drafted high, unless someone else is traded. But like you said, minutes will drop for all the ones remaining. Because the two-way and gleague guys only got time because everyone else was injured and/or sitting out another wasted season. Those guys wouldn't have even been in the rotation all season if everyone stayed healthy. Dlo/Culver/Okogie/Beasley/etc all drop in minutes if they all stay and a new highly drafted guard floats in. Well, I don't think they dare drop Dlo's minutes with his contract unless his play falls through the floor at any point. Everyone else get ready for sub 20 min games as they develop one of these projects live in our face.
shangrila
General Manager
Posts: 8,928
And1: 2,389
Joined: Dec 21, 2009
Location: Land of Aus
 

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#18 » by shangrila » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:26 pm

Jedzz wrote:
shangrila wrote:Either one or even both could go realistically. The only players I'd get attached to on this roster is KAT and DLo, everyone else is varying levels of trade bait.

That said I doubt either are being shopped or would get dumped even if the team drafted Edwards or Ball. I'd say the better question would be who loses minutes, which would be whoever hasn't learnt to shoot yet.


Right. And it's likely one of the former two way guys gone if another guard is drafted high, unless someone else is traded. But like you said, minutes will drop for all the ones remaining. Because the two-way and gleague guys only got time because everyone else was injured and/or sitting out another wasted season. Those guys wouldn't have even been in the rotation all season if everyone stayed healthy. Dlo/Culver/Okogie/Beasley/etc all drop in minutes if they all stay and a new highly drafted guard floats in. Well, I don't think they dare drop Dlo's minutes with his contract unless his play falls through the floor at any point. Everyone else get ready for sub 20 min games as they develop one of these projects live in our face.

I do think they went out of their way to give some of the G League guys minutes as the season progressed. Initially, sure, it was purely due to injuries. But swapping Dieng for Johnson and trading away Teague/Napier was clearly a sign of confidence in Reid and JMac.
Jedzz
General Manager
Posts: 8,327
And1: 1,751
Joined: Oct 05, 2018
   

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#19 » by Jedzz » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:15 am

shangrila wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
shangrila wrote:Either one or even both could go realistically. The only players I'd get attached to on this roster is KAT and DLo, everyone else is varying levels of trade bait.

That said I doubt either are being shopped or would get dumped even if the team drafted Edwards or Ball. I'd say the better question would be who loses minutes, which would be whoever hasn't learnt to shoot yet.


Right. And it's likely one of the former two way guys gone if another guard is drafted high, unless someone else is traded. But like you said, minutes will drop for all the ones remaining. Because the two-way and gleague guys only got time because everyone else was injured and/or sitting out another wasted season. Those guys wouldn't have even been in the rotation all season if everyone stayed healthy. Dlo/Culver/Okogie/Beasley/etc all drop in minutes if they all stay and a new highly drafted guard floats in. Well, I don't think they dare drop Dlo's minutes with his contract unless his play falls through the floor at any point. Everyone else get ready for sub 20 min games as they develop one of these projects live in our face.

I do think they went out of their way to give some of the G League guys minutes as the season progressed. Initially, sure, it was purely due to injuries. But swapping Dieng for Johnson and trading away Teague/Napier was clearly a sign of confidence in Reid and JMac.


Oh I agree. But yes the season was already toast and it was an attempt to start seeing what they have before all the major trading Rosas knew was coming. Also maybe to give other teams looks at them. Dieng however had a deal and a fit issue that had to be resolved. Johnson immediately showed more flexibility to fit. That deal btw helped Miami become who they are by adding pieces like Crowder and Iguodala, excellent experience to round out that team.
old school 34
Junior
Posts: 272
And1: 116
Joined: Jun 14, 2018
         

Re: Which Wolves Guard gets the boot? 

Post#20 » by old school 34 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:56 am

Jedzz wrote:
shangrila wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Right. And it's likely one of the former two way guys gone if another guard is drafted high, unless someone else is traded. But like you said, minutes will drop for all the ones remaining. Because the two-way and gleague guys only got time because everyone else was injured and/or sitting out another wasted season. Those guys wouldn't have even been in the rotation all season if everyone stayed healthy. Dlo/Culver/Okogie/Beasley/etc all drop in minutes if they all stay and a new highly drafted guard floats in. Well, I don't think they dare drop Dlo's minutes with his contract unless his play falls through the floor at any point. Everyone else get ready for sub 20 min games as they develop one of these projects live in our face.

I do think they went out of their way to give some of the G League guys minutes as the season progressed. Initially, sure, it was purely due to injuries. But swapping Dieng for Johnson and trading away Teague/Napier was clearly a sign of confidence in Reid and JMac.


Oh I agree. But yes the season was already toast and it was an attempt to start seeing what they have before all the major trading Rosas knew was coming. Also maybe to give other teams looks at them. Dieng however had a deal and a fit issue that had to be resolved. Johnson immediately showed more flexibility to fit. That deal btw helped Miami become who they are by adding pieces like Crowder and Iguodala, excellent experience to round out that team.
This is something I've probably thought about more than what's healthy...

Again...this only starts to get urgent if say they go Ball/Edwards @ top & if they feel either is BPA...by all means take them.

But then...you have Beasley, Edwards (for example), Okogie, Culver, & Nowell where their ideal position is the 2. Can some play other spots yep....but you also have maybe 10 minutes a night that you want DLo there as well?

Don't have to rush that decision, but as guys lose minutes and sort itself out....those same guys lose trade value? And if it's ever going to work long teem & say Beasley & Edwards ends up being on top of that pecking order...then one needs to figure it out defensively.

I would move either one that could say combined with 17 and move me up for Vassell....roll the dice big on Edwards & get the safer Vassell. Could still make the argument that Vassell still leaves you with same logjam? But I like him best of the 3 & think he has the best chance of the 3 to give me the best minutes sliding to the 3 for stretches.

Last thing....one of the best guys @ guarding big wings...Aaron Gordon, I believe has significant success @ doing that? Also, hoping maybe Vanderbilt might be able to be in that mix @ some point?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

Return to Minnesota Timberwolves