Closing Lineup PG

[post0115]

I keep hearing and seeing everywhere how J-Mac needs to be in the closing lineup instead of Rubio. I am sick of this and this take is dead wrong. Don't want Rubio in the closing lineup, fine I get that I really do. J-Mac is a lazy response and solution though. J-Mac should have the ball in his hand and be a creator when out there. Do I want him to be the playmaker and creator of my closing lineup? Hell no!

This gets to the obvious question of well, if Rubio is out and J-Mac isn't in then who plays point? Why not Anthony Edwards? He idolizes Dwayne Wade and can handle it and then we can get an extra wing defender/spacer out there. Beasley can slide over and do it too. Who that extra wing defender/spacer is is a tough question, but as a spacer and defender many can do better than either Rubio or J-Mac.

[winforlose]

I keep hearing and seeing everywhere how J-Mac needs to be in the closing lineup instead of Rubio. I am sick of this and this take is dead wrong. Don't want Rubio in the closing lineup, fine I get that I really do. J-Mac is a lazy response and solution though. J-Mac should have the ball in his hand and be a creator when out there. Do I want him to be the playmaker and creator of my closing lineup? Hell no!

This gets to the obvious question of well, if Rubio is out and J-Mac isn't in then who plays point? Why not Anthony Edwards? He idolizes Dwayne Wade and can handle it and then we can get an extra wing defender/spacer out there. Beasley can slide over and do it too. Who that extra wing defender/spacer is is a tough question, but as a spacer and defender many can do better than either Rubio or J-Mac.

Edwards is too green, too ball dominant, and too low BBIQ to make end of game decisions. Case in point, 11 seconds left tie game against the pacers. How in the world is a contested 3 better than driving? Rubio’s issue is his lack of dribble penetration. JMAC is better in that area but ultimately lacks the skills to be a consistent closer. Dlo is the right answer when healthy, in the meantime JMAC is better than Rubio or Edwards. My closing lineup suggestion JMAC, Beasley, McDaniels, Reid, KAT.

[RiRuHoops]

My closing lineup is Crunch, Okogie, Juancho , Vanderbuilt, Davis.

[Sugarless]

The closing lineup PG is Rubio cause he's far and away the most experienced, best floor general on the team, and the one who can help this young group both on offense and defense. Simple as that.

McLaughlin is a nice back-up mostly because he takes care of the ball and is a good passer, and with a little bit of luck he can carve a role for himself on the right teams and have an NBA career that expands over several seasons, but with his size and lack of defense it'll be tough for him to be more than that.

Ant at this point is simply not a good enough ballhandler, decision-maker or shooter off the dribble to be running things consistently at the end of games, the Wolves have been trying that consistently this season and they've failed miserably.

Beasley can't create for others, nor that much for himself to be honest. He's a scoring SG that's way better playing off the ball than handling it.

[LesGrossman]

Rubio is great at penetrating, drawing multiple defenders and kicking out. Whoever says he isnt has no clue. He did it only last season, over and over and over, finding Bridges, Booker and Ayton; he hasnt forgotten how its done, i guarantee. Get your head around this: Offense so far meant four guys are completely stationary, allowing help defenders to cheat and sag in deeply. Noone can penetrate and kick out against 5 defenders consistently (maybe Kyrie can). This will all change very soon, hopefully. Why not wait until we see the actual new offense established and make our decision then?

[NebWolvesFan]

Rubio should be the closing PG until Russell comes back. But he shouldn't be running high pick and roll which doesn't play to his strengths or Towns' to be honest. Against the Knicks, they made the right play and delivered the ball to Towns in a good spot. He just missed. It's really about the final play calls than the players.

[SCTwins]

My closing lineup is Crunch, Okogie, Juancho , Vanderbuilt, Davis.

Crunch definitely not getting enough PT this year.

We need shooters.

[LesGrossman]

Rubio should be the closing PG until Russell comes back. But he shouldn't be running high pick and roll which doesn't play to his strengths or Towns' to be honest. Against the Knicks, they made the right play and delivered the ball to Towns in a good spot. He just missed. It's really about the final play calls than the players.

Rubios greatest strength offensively is what i call his absolute court awareness (kind of like the perfect pitch). He is one of maybe 2 or 3 guys in the league who are aware of every players position and direction at real time, all the time. Many guys make spectacular passes (some only do them for the show), but you have to understand that that is a pre-planned play, they do not react to the situation. Kinda hard to explain. Rubio sees the game a few seconds in advance, and has the ability to make a precise pass to where the guy, and only the guy can catch it (at times he misses of course). Its important to understand the value of this skill. Technically he can use it in a fast break, set play, out of pick and roll or by being stationary and finding cutters.

Theres exactly one situation where he cannot benefit from seeing the situation a few seconds ahead; that is when the situation a few seconds later is exactly the same one as before, because noone moved. He is of no more use in that moment than any other average point guard. Its literally the worst possible situation for him to be useful in (other than being parked in the short corner). And that was exactly what defined the terrible offense we saw from Saunders.

Thats why i am so optimistic that each and any half competent coach will help the team. It does not matter which offense he establishes as long as it invlolves guys moving off the ball.

Since we saw the knicks the other day, look at this example. Look at the different ways he found other guys, PnR, cutters, afst break hits.That was only last year. Ayton is a talented younger version of KAT. Booker is a guy who learned it is better for him to restrict himself to SG alongside Rubio.

Watch on YouTube

[Jedzz]

Rubiobobo central unite!

[Jedzz]

Holiday is averaging 16.4 points, 4.8 rebounds and 5.4 assists in 32.5 minutes per game with the Bucks.

JMac would crush this output playing 32.5 every game. How much in total are the Bucs going to pay both Holiday and Augustin this year, with Holiday coming due for another extension now, and with how many assets they sent away for him. Just crazy.

[Merc_Porto]

Holiday is averaging 16.4 points, 4.8 rebounds and 5.4 assists in 32.5 minutes per game with the Bucks.

JMac would crush this output playing 32.5 every game. How much in total are the Bucs going to pay both Holiday and Augustin this year, with Holiday coming due for another extension now, and with how many assets they sent away for him. Just crazy.

Let me get this straight:
So, you are at that point to think that Jmac with 32.5 minutes per game would be on Jrue level?

[Jedzz]

Holiday is averaging 16.4 points, 4.8 rebounds and 5.4 assists in 32.5 minutes per game with the Bucks.

JMac would crush this output playing 32.5 every game. How much in total are the Bucs going to pay both Holiday and Augustin this year, with Holiday coming due for another extension now, and with how many assets they sent away for him. Just crazy.

Let me get this straight:
So, you are at that point to think that Jmac with 32.5 minutes per game would be on Jrue level?

Look at what Holiday is doing! Look at the damn numbers. You people are freaking lunatics. You are so completely sold on past names, draft names, hyped fake all stars. It's such a shame.

[Merc_Porto]

JMac would crush this output playing 32.5 every game. How much in total are the Bucs going to pay both Holiday and Augustin this year, with Holiday coming due for another extension now, and with how many assets they sent away for him. Just crazy.

Let me get this straight:
So, you are at that point to think that Jmac with 32.5 minutes per game would be on Jrue level?

Look at what Holiday is doing! Look at the damn numbers. You people are freaking lunatics. You are so completely sold on past names, draft names, hyped fake all stars. It's such a shame.

You are talking with the wrong person here. I actually had some "fights" with KGdaboom because i think that getting Holiday for that price was a disaster and he doesnt move the needle for the Bucks at all.

But man, you´re talking about lunatics while comparing JMac to Jrue Holiday?

[Sugarless]

Let me get this straight:
So, you are at that point to think that Jmac with 32.5 minutes per game would be on Jrue level?

Look at what Holiday is doing! Look at the damn numbers. You people are freaking lunatics. You are so completely sold on past names, draft names, hyped fake all stars. It's such a shame.

You are talking with the wrong person here. I actually had some "fights" with KGdaboom because i think that getting Holiday for that price was a disaster and he doesnt move the needle for the Bucks at all.

But man, you´re talking about lunatics while comparing JMac to Jrue Holiday?

Merc, you're talking to the guy who was saying how 5'11 JMac has the tools to be a great defender around the rim, how he should be tipping rebounds to himself like Covington (you know, a 6'7'' athletic forward with a 7'2'' wingspan) and how he's a guard that can finish like the best bigs (he's scoring at a 44.7% clip from within 3 ft). You shouldn't be surprised he's comparing him to a 6'4'' combo guard who's one of the best defenders in the league at his position (whereas McLaughlin is a sieve defensively). Just put him on ignore like half the board has already and save yourself the time.

[Merc_Porto]

Look at what Holiday is doing! Look at the damn numbers. You people are freaking lunatics. You are so completely sold on past names, draft names, hyped fake all stars. It's such a shame.

You are talking with the wrong person here. I actually had some "fights" with KGdaboom because i think that getting Holiday for that price was a disaster and he doesnt move the needle for the Bucks at all.

But man, you´re talking about lunatics while comparing JMac to Jrue Holiday?

Merc, you're talking to the guy who was saying how 5'11 JMac has the tools to be a great defender around the rim, how he should be tipping rebounds to himself like Covington (you know, a 6'7'' athletic forward with a 7'2'' wingspan) and how he's a guard that can finish like the best bigs (he's scoring at a 44.7% clip from within 3 ft). You shouldn't be surprised he's comparing him to a 6'4'' combo guard who's one of the best defenders in the league at his position (whereas McLaughlin is a sieve defensively). Just put him on ignore like half the board has already and save yourself the time.

I think he's just way to irrational when he's talking about his favorite players. Some crazy comparisions.

[Jedzz]

You are talking with the wrong person here. I actually had some "fights" with KGdaboom because i think that getting Holiday for that price was a disaster and he doesnt move the needle for the Bucks at all.

But man, you´re talking about lunatics while comparing JMac to Jrue Holiday?

Merc, you're talking to the guy who was saying how 5'11 JMac has the tools to be a great defender around the rim, how he should be tipping rebounds to himself like Covington (you know, a 6'7'' athletic forward with a 7'2'' wingspan) and how he's a guard that can finish like the best bigs (he's scoring at a 44.7% clip from within 3 ft). You shouldn't be surprised he's comparing him to a 6'4'' combo guard who's one of the best defenders in the league at his position (whereas McLaughlin is a sieve defensively). Just put him on ignore like half the board has already and save yourself the time.

I think he's just way to irrational when he's talking about his favorite players. Some crazy comparisions.

Or maybe it's just Sugerless claiming I said something I never did, then you claiming that's a comparison I made, or a comparison at all.

Months ago, when I was discussing where JMac could find additional things he could work on for defense yet, I suggested he could use his leaping/timing/ball IQ abilities to become more active on defense offball. I brought up how Covington was at times a roaming ball hawk who would insert himself on defense where not expected, reach in and pluck balls from opponents. I see JMac in nearly every game standing just to the side of and watching two taller players going at it, one Wolves player and one opponent. JMac is a quicker thinker on the court then most of these guys and he's right there next to them watching this go down. But he is shorter so he has been just standing there watching it play out. I think a good coach could help him figure out a way to get involved in those moments where right now he isn't. Maybe to get up and snatch balls like Covington did, or probably more to poke the ball away which is what I suggested originally.

Anyway, that was something I thought could yet add to his defensive game with work. That's not making a comparison to another player. That's just horrible reading and disengenuous posting.

JMac is a pretty good 1 on 1 defender for many of this league's dribbling iso guards looking to create their own shots and that ability of his should at least be utilized because nobody else on the team is as consistently or ever good about that. His game IQ and court thinking is fast. He can stay in defending close because of his compact size and can match move for move with most and doesn't get burnt by a dribble or look off. Culver might be the second best but he's not close, he can stick with players alright. Okogie occasionally shows it but it's so rare these days, he's gotten worse. Nobody else can or does. Not Rubio, Not Dlo, Not Edwards. So if you don't put JMac in against the other teams best onball general no one else on the Wolves can consistently stop them or slow them down. JMac only occasionally meets up with them on the court during rotation overlaps, so maybe 8-9 minutes a game if we are lucky. Usually it's 3 to 4 minutes here or there. You can examine the past games like I have, or you can take my word for it. He's the only one slowing the opponents' best guard/even wing players down 1 on 1. So for everyone that claims he's just horrible on defense you can all just fall by the wayside as more clueless haters of short players.

I think someone as good as Harden might just give up the dribble and shoot over JMac earlier than Harden typically does when he notices he couldn't shake him. Maybe Harden drains them or maybe that makes him miss like he does to Kawhi and Curry. But we probably never see that matchup occur unless it's in a short overlap frame of time. No amount to help change game outcomes. It's been funny to me that JMac has been helping the team during these overlap moments and nobody on the team is noticing. Or they are just so stuck on playing contract values the most that they would rather lose games than do something politically incorrect internally such as starting a "two way" player omg, or even if not starting them, just rotating them in more like a 6th man to do it without ruffling egos so much.

Why should this be discussed? Because you are talkingg about closing moments in which some of the best onball stars of this league consistently wallup this team in the 4th quarter.

[Heimdal]

There might be a debate a month ago when Rubio was so bad, but since Russell got injured Rubio is outplaying JMac by quite a margin.

If Finch and Rosas decide JMac is the answer moving forward, they'll keep playing Rubio until he's traded. No way they'll bench him for a 2-way player and then call teams. I have no clue what Finch thinks of Ricky. Nobody asked him about the Russell/Rubio pairing.

[Jedzz]

There might be a debate a month ago when Rubio was so bad, but since Russell got injured Rubio is outplaying JMac by quite a margin.

If Finch and Rosas decide JMac is the answer moving forward, they'll keep playing Rubio until he's traded. No way they'll bench him for a 2-way player and then call teams. I have no clue what Finch thinks of Ricky. Nobody asked him about the Russell/Rubio pairing.

Again, you are talking about things that have no bearing on who is the better player, better PG, better all around basketball player, better in this type of system. Contracts being the decider is often reality, nobody will ever dispute that. But if we are talking honestly about how to consistently win more, it's a whole other ballgame.

Rubio is Rubio. He's inconsistent. Yes Rubio has played better for 1.5 weeks of games or whatever. That doesn't mean Ricky can defend a steph curry or a Kawhi. It also doesn't mean Ricky won't go right back to missing layups or a stretch of missed 3s like 2-18 like he had last month at any moment. It doesn't mean he won't throw turnovers to the wind when passing to a bunch of gameIQ lacking players around him. His improvement has coincided with a larger role once Dlo went out. He's had more role than JMac all this time. That increased role being important and of course it should help. Just like if JMac had that increased role right now.

[Heimdal]

Do you see McLaughlin as the starting PG of a playoff team? Do you envision him getting past the first round? Rubio, with all his limitations, has been there. I don't know about JMac. He's a question mark and all we can do is guess.

Also, increased role doesn't mean increased production. See Vanderbilt. How good did he look when he played limited minutes? Now, he's starting and one game he's got to contain LeBron, next Kawhi, then Randle, then Giannis. All of a sudden he looks mentally destroyed and his production is literally negative.

Last night JMac played 25 minutes and his production was nothing to write home about. Right now, PG is the least of our problems. It's Edwards who is killing us, Vanderbilt who looks lost, Reid who is hit or miss, defense, transition defense, rebounding, etc.

[Jedzz]

Do you see McLaughlin as the starting PG of a playoff team? Do you envision him getting past the first round? Rubio, with all his limitations, has been there. I don't know about JMac. He's a question mark and all we can do is guess.

Also, increased role doesn't mean increased production. See Vanderbilt. How good did he look when he played limited minutes? Now, he's starting and one game he's got to contain LeBron, next Kawhi, then Randle, then Giannis. All of a sudden he looks mentally destroyed and his production is literally negative.

Last night JMac played 25 minutes and his production was nothing to write home about. Right now, PG is the least of our problems. It's Edwards who is killing us, Vanderbilt who looks lost, Reid who is hit or miss, defense, transition defense, rebounding, etc.

Increased role for good players does mean increased production. But they have to be good players. Which is where I put Rubio and JMac. But they are different types of PGs with different types of fit here. If other players are complete garbage players, unready players, or severly limited players I agree that adding more time and responsibilities does not help. Okogie is a limited player and we've seen how increased role/minutes don't add up to more production. Same with our unready young players. The results are mixed to bad as we jack up that time and responsibility level. Edwards is a mixed bag because he's got some upper level abilities and so with a massive shot load or usage his scoring will at aleast amount to something. But he's shown just how inconsistent he's going to be from game to game. At least he hasn't consistently been bad.

But this is something I believe that's always been easier to spot, at least for me. Which ones are ready for that, which ones aren't. I believe JMac already proved last season with his few shots at starting and a few more games above 25 minutes usage what exactly you should expect. When he's been prepared for a game as starters are, in the game with a real role, you get serious output for him and others. Everyone needs to remember how little he's been allowed to actually spend practice days with the team being on TwoWays for two years now. It's a little different for him coming into games then most of this roster. He's had to perform a lot with much less preparation most of the time. But when there were injuries last year and it was known he would start a few, you can't tell me you didn't see what I saw.

You spoke about his performance Last night being 25 minutes. First off, he's playing off bench with the same players Rubio struggled mightily with to the point people wanted Rubio not playing anymore or gone. You didn't see JMac throwing blind turnovers away, missing layups, or missing 5 threes. What you saw was JMac doing what he could to support others in a game the Wolves were clearing outsized and overmatched in. Underwhelming? Compare it to what Rubio was doing previously and then tell me. We were having a discussion about who is best to start in Dlo's absence or at least who is best to close games with other starters. That's nothing like the babysitting role of 2nd PG this year, and especially with JMac coming in never knowing if he's playing or not or how much. Do you think twoway contract JMac had many discussions with Finch and crew before this game? I'm getting really tired of people using his rotten situation against him in discussion and showing now perspective when trying to look at the possibily they are wrong. I didn't think Rubio was a good choice at all this offseason, for this team's scheme/roster with Dlo & Edwards addition. But I at least entertained the ideas of how it might work. Most of you can't get out of your box for a second to do such.