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The Fire Rosas Thread

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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#161 » by Foye » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:31 pm

Worm Guts wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:The issue is that Russell really isn't much if any better than Wiggins and we gave up a top 10 pick to make that swap. It was a bad trade. We've been a worse team since we made it. No reason to dwell on it, because we can't change it, but it is dishonest to pretend that it's anything other than a bad trade.


I guess I disagree. Russell can create his own shot and create for others in the half-court from a primary ball-handler position in a way that Wiggins cannot (he may be able to shoot alright playing as a spacer though we'll see if that holds). That, in it of itself, and what that does and the importance of that in a modern NBA offense is HUGE. Russell is a whole different category of player than Wiggins, though there may be teams that would rather have Wiggins than Russell--the Wolves are not one of them. At the very least, the Wolves at the stage they were at when they made the Russell trade were not one of them and I would argue now still.

The Wolves, if they have any chance of being good, need a perimeter player who can create his own shot and hit perimeter shots off the dribble coming from a primary ball-handler position. We weren't going anywhere until we got that and Wiggins was not that guy and never will be despite some success in a quasi-role similar to what Edwards played last season as a ball dominant scorer.


Russell for Wiggins straight up might have been a good trade for the Wolves (or maybe not considering how often Russell has been injured). Adding any first round pick was a mistake. I do think giving up the 7th pick is a big deal. The Wolves need to make a difference with the assets they have, and in this case they gave away a good one.


I feel quite comfortable when I say anything that Russell has produced in this past 1,5 years could've been duplicated by Derrick Rose for less than a fourth of Russells salary. Rose is even the more efficient scorer. :lol:
Goes to show you that the value per dollar with Russell is still the same crap as with Wiggins.

No idea how anyone can still talk themselves into giving up the pick was a good idea.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#162 » by TheZachAttack » Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:54 pm

minimus wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:The issue is that Russell really isn't much if any better than Wiggins and we gave up a top 10 pick to make that swap. It was a bad trade. We've been a worse team since we made it. No reason to dwell on it, because we can't change it, but it is dishonest to pretend that it's anything other than a bad trade.


I disagree. The issue with Wiggins ist that he does not fit next to Towns. Even in GSW behind Curry back Wiggins cant consistenly score. Is he a better defender now? Yes, but PHI had Thybulle+Simmons two All NBA Defensive Team players + Embiid, they could not win against ATL. Same with MIL, they have Giannis+Holiday+Tucker, but were a inch close to defeat in KD clutch shot. KD played with NBA bench level players and injured Griffin. It is offensive-minded league right now. Wiggins defense is solid but not enough in current league. Curry historic season was impressive, but kind of hides real GSW problems, and one of them is still Wiggins performance for money.

We have a unique offensive player in Towns, by playing him next to Wiggins we could ruin his career. That duo had no chemistry. How it can be possible that Ant without preseason and full training camp improved better after every game with Towns while Wiggins reamained basically the same player? Not to mention that DLo and Towns duo is miles better in terms of fit than KAT-Wiggins.



And is he a better defender? Or is he just playing for a team with better a better defensive roster construction around him and a team that's competitive and competing harder on that end of the floor in more games than the Wolves were. It's funny how the Wolves start our strong defensively or play strong defensively after they make trades and have a reason to compete and play 100% (other teams do this too), but then fade and people are confused. Teams that are dozens of games out of playoff contention are not going to play each game in an 82 game season as hard defensively as a team that is competing late into the season and each game matters, either to make the playoffs, or positioning in the playoffs.

It's funny how teams that make a jump from non-contender to fringe contender always improve on defense, usually with the same or similar roster and big negatives defensively become passable or better. Most of it is just actually competing and having a reason to play more competitive defense for more possessions of each game and for more games. If the Wolves were competing for a playoff spot you would see, much more consistently, the engaged Towns defensively from the first X amount of games of the season when folks start talking about his defensive improvement.

Wiggins isn't a meaningfully better defender. He plays for a more competitive team, with a better defensive scheme, most driven by having better defensive players (i.e. Draymond who is a DPOY candidate and one of the most impactful defenders all time). If Wiggins was still on the Wolves he wouldn't be a different player than what you saw when he was traded.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#163 » by Magoose » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:42 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:We didn't give up the 7th pick. We ended up giving up a top-3 protected FRP that ended up being the 7th pick. The reason it's the 7th pick is because the team's top 2 players have missed >50% of the time since the trade otherwise it would not have been the 7th pick. You wouldn't get Russell without giving up a FRP. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to play that game further, given that Wiggins was healthy the whole stretch...the Wolves wouldn't even have the 7th pick. I'd go further and say that I don't think the 7th pick in this pick is all that valuable in this draft. I don't think it's meaningfully different in terms of the value of player being selected than most years get selected in the 10-15+ range, but that's not really a compelling argument.

I don't care what the reason for the poor season was. The problem is that Rosas did not protect the FRP reasonably. Imagine we got the pick this year and KAT gets hurt next season and we end up again with one of the worst records. You would have basically handed out a high pick in a probably historically stacked draft.
What made this even worse is the fact that GSW did not have more leverage than the Wolves. The Warriors GM realized that DLo would be a horrible fit and that they had to pay lux for an inefficient player with questionable fit. Rosas could have used that leverage against the Warriors. He could have waited another season if the price for getting rid of Wiggins contract was a mildly protected FRP and taking back another overpaid max player.

TheZachAttack wrote:I just don't understand the post-hoc logic at all. Okay, you think the trade would have been better if we didn't give up a first pick. Sounds good, but how does that matter at all? The Wolves are in a better position going forward for multiple reasons because they have Russell versus Wiggins. Offensive scheme, locker room culture with Towns, etc, etc, etc.


No. We are in a worse position now. We could have used the 7th pick for drafting or trading for a quality player.
We could have traded Wiggins this offseason by only attaching a late FRP. And pretty sure the asking price for DLO would be way lower right now. Instead we traded an inefficient below average defensive overpaid player for an semi-efficient shooter with questionable shot selection, non-existent defense on a max contract who just happens to be friends with our best player. That makes things even worse because now you can probably not trade DLo without disgruntling Towns even more.
Rosas is just lucky that we ended up "only" trading the 7th pick.
Thus his trade went from "epic meltdown" to "just horrible" level.
GMs were definitely fired for less.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#164 » by minimus » Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:55 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:
minimus wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:The issue is that Russell really isn't much if any better than Wiggins and we gave up a top 10 pick to make that swap. It was a bad trade. We've been a worse team since we made it. No reason to dwell on it, because we can't change it, but it is dishonest to pretend that it's anything other than a bad trade.


I disagree. The issue with Wiggins ist that he does not fit next to Towns. Even in GSW behind Curry back Wiggins cant consistenly score. Is he a better defender now? Yes, but PHI had Thybulle+Simmons two All NBA Defensive Team players + Embiid, they could not win against ATL. Same with MIL, they have Giannis+Holiday+Tucker, but were a inch close to defeat in KD clutch shot. KD played with NBA bench level players and injured Griffin. It is offensive-minded league right now. Wiggins defense is solid but not enough in current league. Curry historic season was impressive, but kind of hides real GSW problems, and one of them is still Wiggins performance for money.

We have a unique offensive player in Towns, by playing him next to Wiggins we could ruin his career. That duo had no chemistry. How it can be possible that Ant without preseason and full training camp improved better after every game with Towns while Wiggins reamained basically the same player? Not to mention that DLo and Towns duo is miles better in terms of fit than KAT-Wiggins.



And is he a better defender? Or is he just playing for a team with better a better defensive roster construction around him and a team that's competitive and competing harder on that end of the floor in more games than the Wolves were. It's funny how the Wolves start our strong defensively or play strong defensively after they make trades and have a reason to compete and play 100% (other teams do this too), but then fade and people are confused. Teams that are dozens of games out of playoff contention are not going to play each game in an 82 game season as hard defensively as a team that is competing late into the season and each game matters, either to make the playoffs, or positioning in the playoffs.

It's funny how teams that make a jump from non-contender to fringe contender always improve on defense, usually with the same or similar roster and big negatives defensively become passable or better. Most of it is just actually competing and having a reason to play more competitive defense for more possessions of each game and for more games. If the Wolves were competing for a playoff spot you would see, much more consistently, the engaged Towns defensively from the first X amount of games of the season when folks start talking about his defensive improvement.

Wiggins isn't a meaningfully better defender. He plays for a more competitive team, with a better defensive scheme, most driven by having better defensive players (i.e. Draymond who is a DPOY candidate and one of the most impactful defenders all time). If Wiggins was still on the Wolves he wouldn't be a different player than what you saw when he was traded.


Yes, I agree that skillswise he is still the same player, but considering simple fact that defense is more about effort than talent, I should give him credit. Wiggins definitely cares more about defense in GSW, how many times I was wondering why he did not even try to block shots from weakside or boxout his opponent.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#165 » by Neeva » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:09 pm

Magoose wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:We didn't give up the 7th pick. We ended up giving up a top-3 protected FRP that ended up being the 7th pick. The reason it's the 7th pick is because the team's top 2 players have missed >50% of the time since the trade otherwise it would not have been the 7th pick. You wouldn't get Russell without giving up a FRP. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to play that game further, given that Wiggins was healthy the whole stretch...the Wolves wouldn't even have the 7th pick. I'd go further and say that I don't think the 7th pick in this pick is all that valuable in this draft. I don't think it's meaningfully different in terms of the value of player being selected than most years get selected in the 10-15+ range, but that's not really a compelling argument.

I don't care what the reason for the poor season was. The problem is that Rosas did not protect the FRP reasonably. Imagine we got the pick this year and KAT gets hurt next season and we end up again with one of the worst records. You would have basically handed out a high pick in a probably historically stacked draft.
What made this even worse is the fact that GSW did not have more leverage than the Wolves. The Warriors GM realized that DLo would be a horrible fit and that they had to pay lux for an inefficient player with questionable fit. Rosas could have used that leverage against the Warriors. He could have waited another season if the price for getting rid of Wiggins contract was a mildly protected FRP and taking back another overpaid max player.

TheZachAttack wrote:I just don't understand the post-hoc logic at all. Okay, you think the trade would have been better if we didn't give up a first pick. Sounds good, but how does that matter at all? The Wolves are in a better position going forward for multiple reasons because they have Russell versus Wiggins. Offensive scheme, locker room culture with Towns, etc, etc, etc.


No. We are in a worse position now. We could have used the 7th pick for drafting or trading for a quality player.
We could have traded Wiggins this offseason by only attaching a late FRP. And pretty sure the asking price for DLO would be way lower right now. Instead we traded an inefficient below average defensive overpaid player for an semi-efficient shooter with questionable shot selection, non-existent defense on a max contract who just happens to be friends with our best player. That makes things even worse because now you can probably not trade DLo without disgruntling Towns even more.
Rosas is just lucky that we ended up "only" trading the 7th pick.
Thus his trade went from "epic meltdown" to "just horrible" level.
GMs were definitely fired for less.


Exactly Dlos price was just going to keep getting lower and lower since his fluke all star appearance. Rosas has been an epic failure.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#166 » by TheZachAttack » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:34 pm

minimus wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:
minimus wrote:
I disagree. The issue with Wiggins ist that he does not fit next to Towns. Even in GSW behind Curry back Wiggins cant consistenly score. Is he a better defender now? Yes, but PHI had Thybulle+Simmons two All NBA Defensive Team players + Embiid, they could not win against ATL. Same with MIL, they have Giannis+Holiday+Tucker, but were a inch close to defeat in KD clutch shot. KD played with NBA bench level players and injured Griffin. It is offensive-minded league right now. Wiggins defense is solid but not enough in current league. Curry historic season was impressive, but kind of hides real GSW problems, and one of them is still Wiggins performance for money.

We have a unique offensive player in Towns, by playing him next to Wiggins we could ruin his career. That duo had no chemistry. How it can be possible that Ant without preseason and full training camp improved better after every game with Towns while Wiggins reamained basically the same player? Not to mention that DLo and Towns duo is miles better in terms of fit than KAT-Wiggins.



And is he a better defender? Or is he just playing for a team with better a better defensive roster construction around him and a team that's competitive and competing harder on that end of the floor in more games than the Wolves were. It's funny how the Wolves start our strong defensively or play strong defensively after they make trades and have a reason to compete and play 100% (other teams do this too), but then fade and people are confused. Teams that are dozens of games out of playoff contention are not going to play each game in an 82 game season as hard defensively as a team that is competing late into the season and each game matters, either to make the playoffs, or positioning in the playoffs.

It's funny how teams that make a jump from non-contender to fringe contender always improve on defense, usually with the same or similar roster and big negatives defensively become passable or better. Most of it is just actually competing and having a reason to play more competitive defense for more possessions of each game and for more games. If the Wolves were competing for a playoff spot you would see, much more consistently, the engaged Towns defensively from the first X amount of games of the season when folks start talking about his defensive improvement.

Wiggins isn't a meaningfully better defender. He plays for a more competitive team, with a better defensive scheme, most driven by having better defensive players (i.e. Draymond who is a DPOY candidate and one of the most impactful defenders all time). If Wiggins was still on the Wolves he wouldn't be a different player than what you saw when he was traded.


Yes, I agree that skillswise he is still the same player, but considering simple fact that defense is more about effort than talent, I should give him credit. Wiggins definitely cares more about defense in GSW, how many times I was wondering why he did not even try to block shots from weakside or boxout his opponent.


He cares more about defense because game 60 in the middle of April isn't a meaningless game where his team is 20 games out of a playoff spot and already out of contention whether he cares about defense or not.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#167 » by TheZachAttack » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:38 pm

Neeva wrote:
Magoose wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:We didn't give up the 7th pick. We ended up giving up a top-3 protected FRP that ended up being the 7th pick. The reason it's the 7th pick is because the team's top 2 players have missed >50% of the time since the trade otherwise it would not have been the 7th pick. You wouldn't get Russell without giving up a FRP. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to play that game further, given that Wiggins was healthy the whole stretch...the Wolves wouldn't even have the 7th pick. I'd go further and say that I don't think the 7th pick in this pick is all that valuable in this draft. I don't think it's meaningfully different in terms of the value of player being selected than most years get selected in the 10-15+ range, but that's not really a compelling argument.

I don't care what the reason for the poor season was. The problem is that Rosas did not protect the FRP reasonably. Imagine we got the pick this year and KAT gets hurt next season and we end up again with one of the worst records. You would have basically handed out a high pick in a probably historically stacked draft.
What made this even worse is the fact that GSW did not have more leverage than the Wolves. The Warriors GM realized that DLo would be a horrible fit and that they had to pay lux for an inefficient player with questionable fit. Rosas could have used that leverage against the Warriors. He could have waited another season if the price for getting rid of Wiggins contract was a mildly protected FRP and taking back another overpaid max player.

TheZachAttack wrote:I just don't understand the post-hoc logic at all. Okay, you think the trade would have been better if we didn't give up a first pick. Sounds good, but how does that matter at all? The Wolves are in a better position going forward for multiple reasons because they have Russell versus Wiggins. Offensive scheme, locker room culture with Towns, etc, etc, etc.


No. We are in a worse position now. We could have used the 7th pick for drafting or trading for a quality player.
We could have traded Wiggins this offseason by only attaching a late FRP. And pretty sure the asking price for DLO would be way lower right now. Instead we traded an inefficient below average defensive overpaid player for an semi-efficient shooter with questionable shot selection, non-existent defense on a max contract who just happens to be friends with our best player. That makes things even worse because now you can probably not trade DLo without disgruntling Towns even more.
Rosas is just lucky that we ended up "only" trading the 7th pick.
Thus his trade went from "epic meltdown" to "just horrible" level.
GMs were definitely fired for less.


Exactly Dlos price was just going to keep getting lower and lower since his fluke all star appearance. Rosas has been an epic failure.


You let narratives and outside opinions about what a player is or isn't impact your judgement way too much. D Lo was a better & more efficient player and scorer than he was in his best season in Brooklyn last season, especially with Finch, no matter whether outside opinions of D Lo have dropped due to playing on horrible teams with no talent or being injured since he was traded to Golden State and then on the Wolves.

D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#168 » by Klomp » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.

Additionally, with Thompson back, Warriors fans will be more critical of Wiggins' average efficiency on an even lower volume.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#169 » by Note30 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:38 am

TheZachAttack wrote:
Neeva wrote:
Magoose wrote:I don't care what the reason for the poor season was. The problem is that Rosas did not protect the FRP reasonably. Imagine we got the pick this year and KAT gets hurt next season and we end up again with one of the worst records. You would have basically handed out a high pick in a probably historically stacked draft.
What made this even worse is the fact that GSW did not have more leverage than the Wolves. The Warriors GM realized that DLo would be a horrible fit and that they had to pay lux for an inefficient player with questionable fit. Rosas could have used that leverage against the Warriors. He could have waited another season if the price for getting rid of Wiggins contract was a mildly protected FRP and taking back another overpaid max player.



No. We are in a worse position now. We could have used the 7th pick for drafting or trading for a quality player.
We could have traded Wiggins this offseason by only attaching a late FRP. And pretty sure the asking price for DLO would be way lower right now. Instead we traded an inefficient below average defensive overpaid player for an semi-efficient shooter with questionable shot selection, non-existent defense on a max contract who just happens to be friends with our best player. That makes things even worse because now you can probably not trade DLo without disgruntling Towns even more.
Rosas is just lucky that we ended up "only" trading the 7th pick.
Thus his trade went from "epic meltdown" to "just horrible" level.
GMs were definitely fired for less.


Exactly Dlos price was just going to keep getting lower and lower since his fluke all star appearance. Rosas has been an epic failure.


You let narratives and outside opinions about what a player is or isn't impact your judgement way too much. D Lo was a better & more efficient player and scorer than he was in his best season in Brooklyn last season, especially with Finch, no matter whether outside opinions of D Lo have dropped due to playing on horrible teams with no talent or being injured since he was traded to Golden State and then on the Wolves.

D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.



Uhh in what world will we be as good as Golden State next year?

I've said it once I'll say it again, Towns and DLo are not good enough to carry us to the playoffs.

If we do make it close it will be because Ant stepped up his game to a Luka Doncic like level.

Rosas isn't Billy King but let's not act like we're better off with him.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#170 » by Note30 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:41 am

Klomp wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.

Additionally, with Thompson back, Warriors fans will be more critical of Wiggins' average efficiency on an even lower volume.



Pretty sure they will try to package Wiggins #7, #14 for someone. I'd be wildly surprise if they didn't. With the Clippers playing as poorly as they are I wouldnt be surprised if they did a sign and trade for Kawhi.

Then if they manage to resign Oubre, back to the finals they go.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#171 » by TheZachAttack » Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:32 am

Note30 wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:
Neeva wrote:
Exactly Dlos price was just going to keep getting lower and lower since his fluke all star appearance. Rosas has been an epic failure.


You let narratives and outside opinions about what a player is or isn't impact your judgement way too much. D Lo was a better & more efficient player and scorer than he was in his best season in Brooklyn last season, especially with Finch, no matter whether outside opinions of D Lo have dropped due to playing on horrible teams with no talent or being injured since he was traded to Golden State and then on the Wolves.

D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.



Uhh in what world will we be as good as Golden State next year?

I've said it once I'll say it again, Towns and DLo are not good enough to carry us to the playoffs.

If we do make it close it will be because Ant stepped up his game to a Luka Doncic like level.

Rosas isn't Billy King but let's not act like we're better off with him.


What are you talking about? I never said anything about being better than Golden State next season. I used Golden State and Charlotte to refer to two teams that finished play-in/edge of playoffs and the types of bumps in value players on those teams got by playing that leve of basketball compared to the Wolves this season. I still contend based on second half numbers, that the reason the Wolves record this season wasn’t in that range was due to injuries (based on winning percentages being in that range while healthy).

Nothing to do with how good either team will be next season.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#172 » by bluethunder0005 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:43 pm

Klomp wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.

Additionally, with Thompson back, Warriors fans will be more critical of Wiggins' average efficiency on an even lower volume.


I actually think the opposite will happen. With Thompson back, Wiggins will get even more open looks and space and he had his most efficient stretch of basketball ever in the 2nd half of this season. That plus the lower volume will give him more of a defensive focus and apparently he took a pretty big step in that department this year as well.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#173 » by minimus » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:07 pm

bluethunder0005 wrote:
Klomp wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.

Additionally, with Thompson back, Warriors fans will be more critical of Wiggins' average efficiency on an even lower volume.


I actually think the opposite will happen. With Thompson back, Wiggins will get even more open looks and space and he had his most efficient stretch of basketball ever in the 2nd half of this season. That plus the lower volume will give him more of a defensive focus and apparently he took a pretty big step in that department this year as well.


So basically Wiggins should become a 3&D player to justify his contract? OG Anunoby is a good example of 3&D 48%FG, 42% 3PT, 16PPG, 5.5RPG, 2.2APG. His contract 18mil per year, Wiggins contract is 29mil per year. Thats a lot for 3&D.

I can however see GSW and Wiggins winning championship, but in this case they need injury free season and Klay returning as one of the best NBA two way player. Klay defense during GSW championship runs was on elite level.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#174 » by Klomp » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:25 pm

bluethunder0005 wrote:
Klomp wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.

Additionally, with Thompson back, Warriors fans will be more critical of Wiggins' average efficiency on an even lower volume.


I actually think the opposite will happen. With Thompson back, Wiggins will get even more open looks and space and he had his most efficient stretch of basketball ever in the 2nd half of this season. That plus the lower volume will give him more of a defensive focus and apparently he took a pretty big step in that department this year as well.

Fair point, Wiggins narrative might improve because Thompson will now be the guy guarding the opponents' best players, letting Wiggins have an easier job so his metrics will look better. Improvement without actually improving, man it must be nice to live on the coasts.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#175 » by Dewey » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:41 pm

pathetic when you here comments that suggest a max player like wiggins needs to be just a 4-5th option on offense and needs an easier load on defense to help him look better statistically. Great example of how pathetic the NBA's guarenteed salary structure really is. I'd never be an owner of an NBA team where I can't release a player. But hey, I hope Wiggins is happy rolling in the $$ he dont deserve ...
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#176 » by TheZachAttack » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:05 pm

Dewey wrote:pathetic when you here comments that suggest a max player like wiggins needs to be just a 4-5th option on offense and needs an easier load on defense to help him look better statistically. Great example of how pathetic the NBA's guarenteed salary structure really is. I'd never be an owner of an NBA team where I can't release a player. But hey, I hope Wiggins is happy rolling in the $$ he dont deserve ...


"Wiggins is actually good now because he can look okay if he's the 4th option offensively and he has one of the best help defending/rim protecting big man behind him and he doesn't have to be the point of attack/lead defender on wings but he's paid the max so if you look at it that way think of what we could have had"
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#177 » by Note30 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:38 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:
Note30 wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:
You let narratives and outside opinions about what a player is or isn't impact your judgement way too much. D Lo was a better & more efficient player and scorer than he was in his best season in Brooklyn last season, especially with Finch, no matter whether outside opinions of D Lo have dropped due to playing on horrible teams with no talent or being injured since he was traded to Golden State and then on the Wolves.

D Lo's value will magically change next season when the Wolves are in the Hornet/Golden State range this season and competing for a playoff spot and playing competitive basketball with D Lo as one of their top 3 players. Nothing will have changed it's all just narrative.



Uhh in what world will we be as good as Golden State next year?

I've said it once I'll say it again, Towns and DLo are not good enough to carry us to the playoffs.

If we do make it close it will be because Ant stepped up his game to a Luka Doncic like level.

Rosas isn't Billy King but let's not act like we're better off with him.


What are you talking about? I never said anything about being better than Golden State next season. I used Golden State and Charlotte to refer to two teams that finished play-in/edge of playoffs and the types of bumps in value players on those teams got by playing that leve of basketball compared to the Wolves this season. I still contend based on second half numbers, that the reason the Wolves record this season wasn’t in that range was due to injuries (based on winning percentages being in that range while healthy).

Nothing to do with how good either team will be next season.


Yeah and I'm saying I'd be highly surprised that even when healthy we are fringe playoff teams.

Unless Ant is averaging 23-25 points with decent rebounding and assist numbers a game next year, back to the lottery we go.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#178 » by Merc_Porto » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:28 am

You guys really like to talk about Wiggins when the major problem never was to get rid of Wigggins.

The major problem was to get Dlo for that absurd package.

But Wiggins still sucks? Who cares, so Dlo.
But in the process we gave a valuable asset.

But ok, let's continue to ignore the point here.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#179 » by Klomp » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:47 am

Merc_Porto wrote:You guys really like to talk about Wiggins when the major problem never was to get rid of Wigggins.

The major problem was to get Dlo for that absurd package.

But Wiggins still sucks? Who cares, so Dlo.
But in the process we gave a valuable asset.

But ok, let's continue to ignore the point here.

For a team that doesn't have the highest tier of star, Wiggins isn't good enough to carry a No. 2 load. He's really not even good enough with a Tier 1 star, but that shows how good Curry was playing this year. Russell has proven he can be a top option on a playoff team without another Tier 1 star.

For what Minnesota needs, Russell is better fit. He provides more value than Wiggins, to where giving up the pick is manageable.
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Re: The Fire Rosas Thread 

Post#180 » by Klomp » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:59 am

Trading is going to be a major component of building the top of this roster for awhile. This will never be a free agent destination. Develop assets and try to move them off for better pieces that wouldn't normally choose Minnesota in free agency. Russell and Beasley are examples of guys who wouldn't normally choose the Minnesota market if given the option before they were traded here. Ben Simmons would be another.

There will be great trades. There will be average trades. There will be bad trades. One poor trade won't discourage them from making another. This is the Houston model. It's not about small-ball, but about star hunting and asset dealing. Say what you want about Houston, but they went from three straight years out of the postseason to eight straight postseason appearances. Everyone looks at the Harden trade, but there were also trades for Howard, Paul, Ariza, etc.

“People say, ‘They’ll do and trade anything,’” Morey once told the Elyria (Ohio) Chronicle-Telegram. “Yeah, we will. Until you have your foundational players, your franchise should be in a state of flux. You need to keep trading and moving players until you get to that point.”

---

In the end, Morey’s tenure as general manager largely followed the trajectory of the Rockets as a franchise, which isn’t all that surprising. He spent years meticulously accumulating assets without ever bottoming out, hoping against hope that he could eventually pounce on a chance for the type of superstar who could lead the team to championship contention.


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/daryl-morey-made-a-lot-of-trades-how-much-did-they-help-the-rockets/

Say what you want about the bottoming out part, but I think the rest fits Rosas pretty accurately. If we end up with Houston's result, are we really going to complain at this point?
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