UnFadeable21 wrote:Do you guys think Rosas will resign Vando next season? He will be a restricted free agent.
I'd guess there's a good chance Vanderbilt is re-signed. He's probably not a guy that is going to get a significant offer as a restricted free agent, so brining him back would make sense. The only potential issue would be if he starts shooting and hitting jumpers (he might have the green light to start taking them with 2 corner 3pt attempts last game). If he shows any kind of shooting ability his price could go up quickly.
UnFadeable21 wrote:Do you guys think Rosas will resign Vando next season? He will be a restricted free agent.
I'd guess there's a good chance Vanderbilt is re-signed. He's probably not a guy that is going to get a significant offer as a restricted free agent, so brining him back would make sense. The only potential issue would be if he starts shooting and hitting jumpers (he might have the green light to start taking them with 2 corner 3pt attempts last game). If he shows any kind of shooting ability his price could go up quickly.
I think it will be interesting to see what his market will be. I think Hollis-Jefferson serves as a bit of a cautionary tale for him, because he has a similar play style and skill set. I wonder if we'll try to sign and trade him for something small to get him to a spot that suits him, a reverse Jake Layman if you will.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
Jedzz wrote: Your logical opinions streak comes to a quick and ugly end.
I think at this point we've seen enough of your rhetoric to know anytime someone says trade DLo you immediately question the logic and intelligence of the person.
We get it you like him.
Jedzz and DLo sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S
I think this time it was more because he combined the trading of Beasley and Dlo if and only if we get the top 3 pick where he will draft another rookie PG. Who undoubtedly will work great with Edwards who believes he's a point guard and live happily ever after, 5 years from now if we are lucky. Yes that is what triggered the response you see.
I didn't even get to the part where he suggested losing the pick means trade Kat/Dlo/Beas to start the "rebuild". What, so...Trading Beasley and Dlo and drafting another PG isn't a rebuild? Is it just a soft rebuild then with a brand new rookie that is supposed to lead your team as a PG, plus Edwards who for damn sure thinks he's a point guard, plus old man Kat at that point? That's not a rebuild?
Some of you hate him so much you've been pleading for his removal during all this time he hasn't been playing. I know, you've been fearing his return. Rubio might be too. It all could be over at any minute. A couple of 40% 3pt players are coming back! Everyone run for your very lives.
Yes because only teams with stars that shoot 40% from three are playoff teams
I'm not scared of DLo coming back. Why would I be?
To be honest, at this point I really hope you get your vision man. I want to see what Dlo, KAT, and Beasley can turn this team into. If we become a playoff team I'll gladly eat crow. But I'm 1000% confident that's never going to happen and we're gonna be in another rebuild within 24 months.
None of these guys pass an eye test. If they did then maybe I'd be more onboard. But they just don't.
frankenwolf wrote:I hope you eat every one of these words next year when the Timberwolves are world champions
Note30 wrote: I think at this point we've seen enough of your rhetoric to know anytime someone says trade DLo you immediately question the logic and intelligence of the person.
We get it you like him.
Jedzz and DLo sitting in a tree. K-I-S-S
I think this time it was more because he combined the trading of Beasley and Dlo if and only if we get the top 3 pick where he will draft another rookie PG. Who undoubtedly will work great with Edwards who believes he's a point guard and live happily ever after, 5 years from now if we are lucky. Yes that is what triggered the response you see.
I didn't even get to the part where he suggested losing the pick means trade Kat/Dlo/Beas to start the "rebuild". What, so...Trading Beasley and Dlo and drafting another PG isn't a rebuild? Is it just a soft rebuild then with a brand new rookie that is supposed to lead your team as a PG, plus Edwards who for damn sure thinks he's a point guard, plus old man Kat at that point? That's not a rebuild?
Some of you hate him so much you've been pleading for his removal during all this time he hasn't been playing. I know, you've been fearing his return. Rubio might be too. It all could be over at any minute. A couple of 40% 3pt players are coming back! Everyone run for your very lives.
Yes because only teams with stars that shoot 40% from three are playoff teams
I'm not scared of DLo coming back. Why would I be?
To be honest, at this point I really hope you get your vision man. I want to see what Dlo, KAT, and Beasley can turn this team into. If we become a playoff team I'll gladly eat crow. But I'm 1000% confident that's never going to happen and we're gonna be in another rebuild within 24 months.
None of these guys pass an eye test. If they did then maybe I'd be more onboard. But they just don't.
Actually most playoff teams are loaded to the hilt with players shooting average or above threes, yes even over 40%. Even their depth do. Average being aroudn 36, not 30 or 25.
Excuse me for demanding the team keep at least two to three around that can at all times.
Jedzz wrote: I think this time it was more because he combined the trading of Beasley and Dlo if and only if we get the top 3 pick where he will draft another rookie PG. Who undoubtedly will work great with Edwards who believes he's a point guard and live happily ever after, 5 years from now if we are lucky. Yes that is what triggered the response you see.
I didn't even get to the part where he suggested losing the pick means trade Kat/Dlo/Beas to start the "rebuild". What, so...Trading Beasley and Dlo and drafting another PG isn't a rebuild? Is it just a soft rebuild then with a brand new rookie that is supposed to lead your team as a PG, plus Edwards who for damn sure thinks he's a point guard, plus old man Kat at that point? That's not a rebuild?
Some of you hate him so much you've been pleading for his removal during all this time he hasn't been playing. I know, you've been fearing his return. Rubio might be too. It all could be over at any minute. A couple of 40% 3pt players are coming back! Everyone run for your very lives.
Yes because only teams with stars that shoot 40% from three are playoff teams
I'm not scared of DLo coming back. Why would I be?
To be honest, at this point I really hope you get your vision man. I want to see what Dlo, KAT, and Beasley can turn this team into. If we become a playoff team I'll gladly eat crow. But I'm 1000% confident that's never going to happen and we're gonna be in another rebuild within 24 months.
None of these guys pass an eye test. If they did then maybe I'd be more onboard. But they just don't.
Actually most playoff teams are loaded to the hilt with players shooting average or above threes, yes even over 40%. Even their depth do. Average being aroudn 36, not 30 or 25.
Excuse me for demanding the team keep at least two to three around that can at all times.
You can be confident that the team will fk it up.
4 teams including the two that went to the Finals last year are currently shooting in the bottom 15 as far as the 3P%.
But yeah, I hope you get to see what you want man. I guarantee its not gonna turn out the way you hope, because like so many other posters on this board, some combo of DLo KAT and Beasley a playoff team does not make.
In the Western conference, you need a good defensive team, we don't have any makings of that. Rosas himself said that he values offense over defense. And DLo and Kat are not defensive stoppers even slightly. I will admit KAT has gotten better, but your two or three core players can not suck at defense. There are obviously exceptions like Harden but neither KAT nor DLo are even close to that. So I would say I am very confident that we will continue to suck and never make the playoffs until our defense is ranked above #8 in the Western Conference.
frankenwolf wrote:I hope you eat every one of these words next year when the Timberwolves are world champions
Note30 wrote:4 teams including the two that went to the Finals last year are currently shooting in the bottom 15 as far as the 3P%.
Funny you use "the two that went to the Finals last year" as some sort of reason to ignore 3-point shooting. Miami was second in 3-point shooting last year, but is down to 27th this year, while being below .500 and barely hanging on to a playoff spot. That's concerning. The Lakers 3-point volume is down, and they've already lost 17 games while losing 19 games all of last season.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
Note30 wrote:4 teams including the two that went to the Finals last year are currently shooting in the bottom 15 as far as the 3P%.
Funny you use "the two that went to the Finals last year" as some sort of reason to ignore 3-point shooting. Miami was second in 3-point shooting last year, but is down to 27th this year, while being below .500 and barely hanging on to a playoff spot. That's concerning. The Lakers 3-point volume is down, and they've already lost 17 games while losing 19 games all of last season.
I'm not saying that we should ignore it. I'm saying defense is more important.
Also they are still playoff teams.
frankenwolf wrote:I hope you eat every one of these words next year when the Timberwolves are world champions
Note30 wrote: Yes because only teams with stars that shoot 40% from three are playoff teams
I'm not scared of DLo coming back. Why would I be?
To be honest, at this point I really hope you get your vision man. I want to see what Dlo, KAT, and Beasley can turn this team into. If we become a playoff team I'll gladly eat crow. But I'm 1000% confident that's never going to happen and we're gonna be in another rebuild within 24 months.
None of these guys pass an eye test. If they did then maybe I'd be more onboard. But they just don't.
Actually most playoff teams are loaded to the hilt with players shooting average or above threes, yes even over 40%. Even their depth do. Average being aroudn 36, not 30 or 25.
Excuse me for demanding the team keep at least two to three around that can at all times.
You can be confident that the team will fk it up.
4 teams including the two that went to the Finals last year are currently shooting in the bottom 15 as far as the 3P%.
You mean the Lakers and Heat who have been annhilated by injuries this season and have most their best players being out. Yeah, this season has been hurting the play of most teams. But don't worry, I don't expect you to have an honest discussion on this without searching out and cherry picking some short timeframe examples that fit your narrative. (...this half season)
The largest reason this team has lost games for endless years has been the lack of consistent shooting level by the players, especially pressure shooters at the end of games. Of which you will find on every significant playoff team...they hit pressure shots better than anyone with obscene percentages. Not just gamewinners, but 3rd or 4th quarters to put opponents away or to make comebacks and daggers. I've had this discussion with a few here before that some of the best game shooters only have career averages of 36 to 38 range which looks average or just good, but it's more because of their shot load throughout the entirety of games when necessity of makes isn't as high, but they are even better known for how they shoot in final quarters and pressure moments. What you won't see is 29-30-31% shooters as the tip of the spear on good teams. So when you have two or three that can take a lot of shots and average 39-40...it's a very good thing. Focus everything on them.
When/if you get your way and two of our only three proven consistency capable shooters are moved out, remember what I told you it would look like. Remember why I told you playing Edwards/Culver/Okogie/ and even someone I support like Nowell more is a mistake in comparison with having players like Dlo/Beas out there shooting. Nowell had a couple nice games and already people claimed he was the same as Beasley and could make Beasley expendable. They found out real quick that Nowell is too young, too unproven, and too inexperienced yet for such claims. (no more then three games in his career of at least 28 minutes yet). This is the same kind of shortsighted claims that have people thinking the next hyped drafted player will plug right in and rock your team. There is no evidence they are consistent pros until they prove they can be and learn to be consistent. 30 or so games in college or 20-30 euro games isn't quite the same as annual 80 game seasons with games every other night. Only some of these guys end up real pros.
Was it this thread that someone already tried to destroy Beasley for having a cold game coming back from a long suspension? Oh yes they also claimed Dlo would when he comes back. These people can't wait for us to be loaded with 30-33% shooter crap again at best like the past two decades.
Jedzz wrote: Actually most playoff teams are loaded to the hilt with players shooting average or above threes, yes even over 40%. Even their depth do. Average being aroudn 36, not 30 or 25.
Excuse me for demanding the team keep at least two to three around that can at all times.
You can be confident that the team will fk it up.
4 teams including the two that went to the Finals last year are currently shooting in the bottom 15 as far as the 3P%.
You mean the Lakers and Heat who have been annhilated by injuries this season and have most their best players being out. Yeah, this season has been hurting the play of most teams. But don't worry, I don't expect you to have an honest discussion on this without searching out and cherry picking some short timeframe examples that fit your narrative. (...this half season)
The largest reason this team has lost games for endless years has been the lack of consistent shooting level by the players, especially pressure shooters at the end of games. Of which you will find on every significant playoff team...they hit pressure shots better than anyone with obscene percentages. Not just gamewinners, but 3rd or 4th quarters to put opponents away or to make comebacks and daggers. I've had this discussion with a few here before that some of the best game shooters only have career averages of 36 to 38 range which looks average or just good, but it's more because of their shot load throughout the entirety of games when necessity of makes isn't as high, but they are even better known for how they shoot in final quarters and pressure moments. What you won't see is 29-30-31% shooters as the tip of the spear on good teams. So when you have two or three that can take a lot of shots and average 39-40...it's a very good thing. Focus everything on them.
When/if you get your way and two of our only three proven consistency capable shooters are moved out, remember what I told you it would look like. Remember why I told you playing Edwards/Culver/Okogie/ and even someone I support like Nowell more is a mistake in comparison with having players like Dlo/Beas out there shooting. Nowell had a couple nice games and already people claimed he was the same as Beasley and could make Beasley expendable. They found out real quick that Nowell is too young, too unproven, and too inexperienced yet for such claims. (no more then three games in his career of at least 28 minutes yet). This is the same kind of shortsighted claims that have people thinking the next hyped drafted player will plug right in and rock your team. There is no evidence they are consistent pros until they prove they can be and learn to be consistent. 30 or so games in college or 20-30 euro games isn't quite the same as annual 80 game seasons with games every other night. Only some of these guys end up real pros.
Was it this thread that someone already tried to destroy Beasley for having a cold game coming back from a long suspension? Oh yes they also claimed Dlo would when he comes back. These people can't wait for us to be loaded with 30-33% shooter crap again at best like the past two decades.
Cherry picked sure, but they are still playoff teams.
I wouldn't want Beasley and DLo to be replaced by guys who can't shoot. I'm just saying I'd rather have players who can shoot but also play defense. Aka two way players of which we have one guy and he's a rookie and not getting consistent minutes.
I'd trade Beasley and Dlo as long as we try to draft PG and Kawhi. (Or trade for them).
Name one time in Wolves history we've had a good defensive squad and not made the playoffs. It should be easy to find out. My guess is never.
You need both offense and defense. Right now I'd argue we have some offense. If you were to trade Beasley for a player better on defense and somewhat lowered offense (like a Dejounte Murray) and swap DLo for someone with better defense like Jrue Holiday, you're telling me this team wouldn't be drastically better?
Murray Holiday Edwards McDaniels Towns
I want to see someone here tell me I'm wrong.
frankenwolf wrote:I hope you eat every one of these words next year when the Timberwolves are world champions
Note30 wrote: 4 teams including the two that went to the Finals last year are currently shooting in the bottom 15 as far as the 3P%.
You mean the Lakers and Heat who have been annhilated by injuries this season and have most their best players being out. Yeah, this season has been hurting the play of most teams. But don't worry, I don't expect you to have an honest discussion on this without searching out and cherry picking some short timeframe examples that fit your narrative. (...this half season)
The largest reason this team has lost games for endless years has been the lack of consistent shooting level by the players, especially pressure shooters at the end of games. Of which you will find on every significant playoff team...they hit pressure shots better than anyone with obscene percentages. Not just gamewinners, but 3rd or 4th quarters to put opponents away or to make comebacks and daggers. I've had this discussion with a few here before that some of the best game shooters only have career averages of 36 to 38 range which looks average or just good, but it's more because of their shot load throughout the entirety of games when necessity of makes isn't as high, but they are even better known for how they shoot in final quarters and pressure moments. What you won't see is 29-30-31% shooters as the tip of the spear on good teams. So when you have two or three that can take a lot of shots and average 39-40...it's a very good thing. Focus everything on them.
When/if you get your way and two of our only three proven consistency capable shooters are moved out, remember what I told you it would look like. Remember why I told you playing Edwards/Culver/Okogie/ and even someone I support like Nowell more is a mistake in comparison with having players like Dlo/Beas out there shooting. Nowell had a couple nice games and already people claimed he was the same as Beasley and could make Beasley expendable. They found out real quick that Nowell is too young, too unproven, and too inexperienced yet for such claims. (no more then three games in his career of at least 28 minutes yet). This is the same kind of shortsighted claims that have people thinking the next hyped drafted player will plug right in and rock your team. There is no evidence they are consistent pros until they prove they can be and learn to be consistent. 30 or so games in college or 20-30 euro games isn't quite the same as annual 80 game seasons with games every other night. Only some of these guys end up real pros.
Was it this thread that someone already tried to destroy Beasley for having a cold game coming back from a long suspension? Oh yes they also claimed Dlo would when he comes back. These people can't wait for us to be loaded with 30-33% shooter crap again at best like the past two decades.
Cherry picked sure, but they are still playoff teams.
I wouldn't want Beasley and DLo to be replaced by guys who can't shoot. I'm just saying I'd rather have players who can shoot but also play defense. Aka two way players of which we have one guy and he's a rookie and not getting consistent minutes.
I'd trade Beasley and Dlo as long as we try to draft PG and Kawhi. (Or trade for them).
Name one time in Wolves history we've had a good defensive squad and not made the playoffs. It should be easy to find out. My guess is never.
You need both offense and defense. Right now I'd argue we have some offense. If you were to trade Beasley for a player better on defense and somewhat lowered offense (like a Dejounte Murray) and swap DLo for someone with better defense like Jrue Holiday, you're telling me this team wouldn't be drastically better?
Murray Holiday Edwards McDaniels Towns
I want to see someone here tell me I'm wrong.
1.) Those teams would never make those trades because they value those players defense in an offense heavy league
2.) Defensively better yes but not guaranteed offensively. They both average 15 & 5 assist on their respective teams but not sure that happens here because they have no shooting threats to pass too. Murray has Demar, Aldridge, Mills, Gay, and Johnson. Jrue has Giannis, Khris, Brook and Donte. They would come here and have to rely on lesser players. It would be interesting to see though.
Jedzz wrote: You mean the Lakers and Heat who have been annhilated by injuries this season and have most their best players being out. Yeah, this season has been hurting the play of most teams. But don't worry, I don't expect you to have an honest discussion on this without searching out and cherry picking some short timeframe examples that fit your narrative. (...this half season)
The largest reason this team has lost games for endless years has been the lack of consistent shooting level by the players, especially pressure shooters at the end of games. Of which you will find on every significant playoff team...they hit pressure shots better than anyone with obscene percentages. Not just gamewinners, but 3rd or 4th quarters to put opponents away or to make comebacks and daggers. I've had this discussion with a few here before that some of the best game shooters only have career averages of 36 to 38 range which looks average or just good, but it's more because of their shot load throughout the entirety of games when necessity of makes isn't as high, but they are even better known for how they shoot in final quarters and pressure moments. What you won't see is 29-30-31% shooters as the tip of the spear on good teams. So when you have two or three that can take a lot of shots and average 39-40...it's a very good thing. Focus everything on them.
When/if you get your way and two of our only three proven consistency capable shooters are moved out, remember what I told you it would look like. Remember why I told you playing Edwards/Culver/Okogie/ and even someone I support like Nowell more is a mistake in comparison with having players like Dlo/Beas out there shooting. Nowell had a couple nice games and already people claimed he was the same as Beasley and could make Beasley expendable. They found out real quick that Nowell is too young, too unproven, and too inexperienced yet for such claims. (no more then three games in his career of at least 28 minutes yet). This is the same kind of shortsighted claims that have people thinking the next hyped drafted player will plug right in and rock your team. There is no evidence they are consistent pros until they prove they can be and learn to be consistent. 30 or so games in college or 20-30 euro games isn't quite the same as annual 80 game seasons with games every other night. Only some of these guys end up real pros.
Was it this thread that someone already tried to destroy Beasley for having a cold game coming back from a long suspension? Oh yes they also claimed Dlo would when he comes back. These people can't wait for us to be loaded with 30-33% shooter crap again at best like the past two decades.
Cherry picked sure, but they are still playoff teams.
I wouldn't want Beasley and DLo to be replaced by guys who can't shoot. I'm just saying I'd rather have players who can shoot but also play defense. Aka two way players of which we have one guy and he's a rookie and not getting consistent minutes.
I'd trade Beasley and Dlo as long as we try to draft PG and Kawhi. (Or trade for them).
Name one time in Wolves history we've had a good defensive squad and not made the playoffs. It should be easy to find out. My guess is never.
You need both offense and defense. Right now I'd argue we have some offense. If you were to trade Beasley for a player better on defense and somewhat lowered offense (like a Dejounte Murray) and swap DLo for someone with better defense like Jrue Holiday, you're telling me this team wouldn't be drastically better?
Murray Holiday Edwards McDaniels Towns
I want to see someone here tell me I'm wrong.
1.) Those teams would never make those trades because they value those players defense in an offense heavy league
2.) Defensively better yes but not guaranteed offensively. They both average 15 & 5 assist on their respective teams but not sure that happens here because they have no shooting threats to pass too. Murray has Demar, Aldridge, Mills, Gay, and Johnson. Jrue has Giannis, Khris, Brook and Donte. They would come here and have to rely on lesser players. It would be interesting to see though.
1.) Was a hypothetical didn't mean those actual players 2.) KAT Edwards McDaniels and Juancho gave similar shooting percentages. Demar is a not a 3pt threat, Aldrige isn't on the team anymore, Gay plays like 15-20 min a game. I'm sure it'll be fine
frankenwolf wrote:I hope you eat every one of these words next year when the Timberwolves are world champions
Note30 wrote: Cherry picked sure, but they are still playoff teams.
You cherry picked a first half season of this year and pointed out a few teams highly struggling from injuries, covid, and being forced to use wider roster depth. These aren't examples for any topic whatsoever, much less to claim playoff teams don't need/have significant shooters. My goodness let's not continue arguing points using things like that please.
A quote about Denver's roster coming together after the deadline from another board where they claim all their starters are 38% or higher now:
Spoiler:
Sharkboy242 wrote:
Sharkboy242 wrote:One of the more underappreciated aspects of the AG trade is that now Will Barton slides down to his natural position, the 2, and Paul Millsap moves to becoming a bench player.
Millsap as a starter is underwhelming but as a bench player can be great for the role. Barton is just too small to guard a lot of SFs, as a 2 though he's oversized.
To add to that, with a starting lineup of
Jokic MPJ Gordon Barton Murray
Will Barton is the lowest 3P% shooter at 38%. This is by far the most athletic lineup Jokic has ever played with. I just think we got better in a lot of ways and I like our chances.
They aren't settling for nonshooters.
Note30 wrote:I wouldn't want Beasley and DLo to be replaced by guys who can't shoot. I'm just saying I'd rather have players who can shoot but also play defense. Aka two way players of which we have one guy and he's a rookie and not getting consistent minutes.
I agree, high level two way players are wonderful. But because they are they don't come cheap in this league and we will probably never have a roster chock full of them. Some will have to be just great at something and working at the other, offset by others that are.
Note30 wrote:I'd trade Beasley and Dlo as long as we try to draft PG and Kawhi. (Or trade for them).
Drafting them is a goal, not an automatic success and typically not going to see consistency until they reach the age/experience level of a Beasley/Dlo. Then that is when they begin to become what PG/Kawhi types became. Not in the first 4 years.
We aren't even a year into playing them and you want to trade them for better even more proven "two way" players? Well go ahead, but there go significant additional assets if you can even get it done.
Note30 wrote:Name one time in Wolves history we've had a good defensive squad and not made the playoffs. It should be easy to find out. My guess is never.
Name one time you had a good defense but sucked as shooters/offense and made the playoffs.
Note30 wrote:You need both offense and defense. Right now I'd argue we have some offense.
Correction, we have just as of the 2020 deadline gained barely enough offensive shooters. The team roster as a whole is still woefully poor at shooting. These two haven't even played a season here yet, and the team drafted and traded for worse shooters to steal minutes and offensive focus from them this year and it equalled losses for doing so.
Note30 wrote: If you were to trade Beasley for a player better on defense and somewhat lowered offense (like a Dejounte Murray) and swap DLo for someone with better defense like Jrue Holiday, you're telling me this team wouldn't be drastically better?
I'm saying once again your examples are not comparable, unrealistic to the topic. This is a little like cherry picking stats to fit narratives.
You want Jrue Holiday for his 15 to 20ppg and better defense? Then trade Bucks the 3FRPs plus more pick swaps, plus players better than Bledsoe/Hill that they gave up for him. Do you see the tradeoffs happening yet? Which one really helps you build a team for Timberwolves to play the next few years without destroying the future?
As for Murray over Beasley. These guys costs the same. To get two way play, be prepared to give up more assets to get him and end up with less scoring and spacing again.
I'll give you an example of how you can't just plug and play these players and expect the same defense. Jerami Grant started off with good defense at Philly/OKC for years. Then it dropped off quite a bit for his Nuggets play even if most people didn't notice. They still talked about him as a high level defender from his previous years. The drop might be why Denver traded him. Because his defense has been even worse for Detroit now. The very same could happen should you somehow trade Beasley plus for the previously two-way indicating but young Murray.
Tell you what? That you are being unrealistic and playing video games in your head?
If the prior injections didn't make you less sure of your idea, maybe this will.
Who or what are you trading for JRUE? See what Bucks paid for that 30yr old player. List what you would give. So go ahead with that trade and loss of future picks. Then pry a young two way player away from the Spurs for more picks/players.
And when you are done giving up the next 4 to 5 years of picks and players, you get 4-5 less pts from JRUE, 5 less pts from Murray, and both those players will then have their touches/scoring limited further because Edwards is going to demand 15-20 shots on weak efficiency and consistency for the next couple seasons and be just as bad on defense as the two guys you just kicked out for such a reason.
When you could instead have kept Dlo's 20+ppg, Beasley's 20+PPGs, with Town's 22-25PPG, and only needed 40 pts from the 7 to 9 other players. Could have used Edwards at the deadline to get a Gordon (35-40% 3FG), or other PF - maybe a Collins, Randle, Toppin, or a Robinson to push Towns to PF, or others,... Does any of this sound more realistic for this team without trading away mega amounts of picks like you were for less offense in return? And guess what, you still could now go ahead and draft whoever you want because you still have draft picks. But noooo, because you are so in love with new draft pick kiddies we have to keep Edwards and blow up the plan they had just started last spring entirely.
Note30 wrote: Cherry picked sure, but they are still playoff teams.
You cherry picked a first half season of this year and pointed out a few teams highly struggling from injuries, covid, and being forced to use wider roster depth. These aren't examples for any topic whatsoever, much less to claim playoff teams don't need/have significant shooters. My goodness let's not continue arguing points using things like that please.
A quote about Denver's roster coming together after the deadline from another board where they claim all their starters are 38% or higher now. They aren't settling for nonshooters.
Note30 wrote:Name one time in Wolves history we've had a good defensive squad and not made the playoffs. It should be easy to find out. My guess is never.
Name one time you had a good defense but sucked as shooters/offense and made the playoffs.
THESE ARE FACTS BELOW.
Okay, let's breakdown the teams that have had below-average defense and made the playoffs statistically. Over the past four years (this year dating back to 2017-2018), 3.5 teams out of 16 make the playoffs that have below-average defenses. I chose 15the rank (league) in the league rankings to determine what "average" means.
Less than 25% (~22%) of the teams that got into the playoffs had a bad defense.
Let's compare that to the number of teams with below-average offenses that made the playoffs. I will use the same definition of average.
On average 7.25 teams with below-average offenses make it into the playoffs.
Out of those 7.25 teams - those teams usually belong to the Western Conference.
2 out of the 4 years the teams that had average/below average defense that made it into the playoffs? The Warriors were one of the 4 teams, with super-powered rosters.
So does that answer your question as to whether we need a super high-powered offense? The answer is statistically you don't especially in the Western Conference.
As to when was the last time we had a good defense (post KG)?
2005-2006 (8th in the league in defense, 30th in offense - missed the playoffs)
The last time we had an above-average offense?
Post KG 2010 - 2011 (10th in the league in offense, 30th in defense - missed playoffs 2011-2012 (10th in the league in offense, 28th in defense - missed the playoffs) 2013 - 2014 (3rd in the league in offense, 26th in defense missed the playoffs) 2016 - 2017 (13th in the league in offense, 19th in the league in defense - missed the playoffs) after that was year was the year we made the playoffs with Thibs 2017-2018 (8th in the league in offense, 17th in defense - eliminated first round 4-1)
We've never had a good defense post-2006. That's 15 years. Maybe we should focus on it.
Jedzz wrote:
Note30 wrote:I wouldn't want Beasley and DLo to be replaced by guys who can't shoot. I'm just saying I'd rather have players who can shoot but also play defense. Aka two way players of which we have one guy and he's a rookie and not getting consistent minutes.
I agree, high level two way players are wonderful. But because they are they don't come cheap in this league and we will probably never have a roster chock full of them. Some will have to be just great at something and working at the other, offset by others that are.
Note30 wrote:I'd trade Beasley and Dlo as long as we try to draft PG and Kawhi. (Or trade for them).
Drafting them is a goal, not an automatic success and typically not going to see consistency until they reach the age/experience level of a Beasley/Dlo. Then that is when they begin to become what PG/Kawhi types became. Not in the first 4 years.
We aren't even a year into playing them and you want to trade them for better even more proven "two way" players? Well go ahead, but there go significant additional assets if you can even get it done.
Note30 wrote:You need both offense and defense. Right now I'd argue we have some offense.
Correction, we have just as of the 2020 deadline gained barely enough offensive shooters. The team roster as a whole is still woefully poor at shooting. These two haven't even played a season here yet, and the team drafted and traded for worse shooters to steal minutes and offensive focus from them this year and it equalled losses for doing so.
Note30 wrote: If you were to trade Beasley for a player better on defense and somewhat lowered offense (like a Dejounte Murray) and swap DLo for someone with better defense like Jrue Holiday, you're telling me this team wouldn't be drastically better?
I'm saying once again your examples are not comparable, unrealistic to the topic. This is a little like cherry picking stats to fit narratives.
You want Jrue Holiday for his 15 to 20ppg and better defense? Then trade Bucks the 3FRPs plus more pick swaps, plus players better than Bledsoe/Hill that they gave up for him. Do you see the tradeoffs happening yet? Which one really helps you build a team for Timberwolves to play the next few years without destroying the future?
As for Murray over Beasley. These guys costs the same. To get two way play, be prepared to give up more assets to get him and end up with less scoring and spacing again.
I'll give you an example of how you can't just plug and play these players and expect the same defense. Jerami Grant started off with good defense at Philly/OKC for years. Then it dropped off quite a bit for his Nuggets play even if most people didn't notice. They still talked about him as a high level defender from his previous years. The drop might be why Denver traded him. Because his defense has been even worse for Detroit now. The very same could happen should you somehow trade Beasley plus for the previously two-way indicating but young Murray.
Tell you what? That you are being unrealistic and playing video games in your head?
If the prior injections didn't make you less sure of your idea, maybe this will.
Who or what are you trading for JRUE? See what Bucks paid for that 30yr old player. List what you would give. So go ahead with that trade and loss of future picks. Then pry a young two way player away from the Spurs for more picks/players.
And when you are done giving up the next 4 to 5 years of picks and players, you get 4-5 less pts from JRUE, 5 less pts from Murray, and both those players will then have their touches/scoring limited further because Edwards is going to demand 15-20 shots on weak efficiency and consistency for the next couple seasons and be just as bad on defense as the two guys you just kicked out for such a reason.
When you could instead have kept Dlo's 20+ppg, Beasley's 20+PPGs, with Town's 22-25PPG, and only needed 40 pts from the 7 to 9 other players. Could have used Edwards at the deadline to get a Gordon (35-40% 3FG), or other PF - maybe a Collins, Randle, Toppin, or a Robinson to push Towns to PF, or others,... Does any of this sound more realistic for this team without trading away mega amounts of picks like you were for less offense in return? And guess what, you still could now go ahead and draft whoever you want because you still have draft picks. But noooo, because you are so in love with new draft pick kiddies we have to keep Edwards and blow up the plan they had just started last spring entirely.
The Bucks 3FRP are not equal to ours. Ours are more valuable, therefore I am confident we probably could have gotten Jrue for Wiggins and the 1st, and maybe some 2nd rounders, especially considering the Warriors thought they could have traded Wiggins and Wiseman for Jrue at the draft. (not too many articles backing this up but I found 2). Which ultimately would have better value.
Also, I wouldn't trade for Jrue now or last year (he's too old for KAT, doesn't fit the timeline it's the same reason I was against trading for Butler) it was an example of a player who I thought was a good two-way player.
Murray, I wouldn't trade for now either. The reality is that our assets aren't all that great outside of Towns.
Ok. None of our three scorers are good defenders. For every point, they score they will give up at least as many. Especially Dlo.
Yeah, I hate this plan, its stupid and follows the same trend we've been trying for ages now. Look at the above historical list and tell me a good offense and terrible defense will equate to a perennial playoff team. We don't need shooters as much as we need a good defense first.
Sacramento is one of the better shooting teams in the league the last two seasons (9th and 13th) (not this one tho - 16th). They also have had a good offense for three years? Guess where they suck ass consistently?
New Orleans has the 3rd best offense in the league, guess where they eat ass?
Defense. Defense wins games, rebounding wins championships. Its the oldest saying in the history of sports yet this stupid-ass franchise doesn't take it to heart.
frankenwolf wrote:I hope you eat every one of these words next year when the Timberwolves are world champions
