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The team when DLo Returns...

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The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#1 » by wolfen » Thu Apr 1, 2021 3:53 pm

Should be fun when Dlo does return, and it will probably make the offense more multi-tooled. BUT, last night's game, crunchtime, got me thinking. Ant did a great job at the end, getting into the teeth of the defense, collapsing it. He found Beas for a wide open 3, and that was perfectly executed. Beas will hit a good look like that more times than not. On top of that, if he's got a hand in his face, he's got such a quick and high release that it would still be a good look in that situation. The other thing that Beas does well in those situations is that if I guy is closing out hard, he makes a quick decision, he can pump and go quickly for an open pull-up, or just attack into the lane to keep the defense scrambling. So 2 great things - quick/high release, able to quickly attack a closeout and continue to make the defense scramble. Love it.

You would think that having Dlo on the floor in crunch time and having both he and Beas as catch and shoot guys would be even more effective, but I REALLY worry about Dlo in the catch and shoot in crunch time when defenses are playing tough. If he's wide open in that situation, then yes, that would be a great shot, but more times than not, you're not THAT wide open. So the more likely scenario is Dlo catching the pass from Ant with a defender closing out at him, and in those situations, Dlo struggles. He doesn't have the quickest release, he doesn't make a quick decision when a guy closes out on him hard, he stops the ball and tries to do his one on one thing, which kills the advantage you've just created by making the defense scramble.

So what is the point here. The point is that when it's winning time, you have to have the right ingredients. Imagine if you would magically have Fred VanVleet on this team in that situation with Ant attacking, scoring if he can, collapsing the defense, and passing to the perimeter if he's covered. Yes, it would be nice to find a wide open Beas, but also having Van Vleet out there would be spectacular because he CAN catch and shoot quickly but he can also quickly destroy a closeout, and he won't stop the ball like Dlo. Frankly, I'd rather have Nowell out there in that situation over either Dlo or Rubio (duh) because he has shown those abilities as well. Of course, not the level of VanVleet, but you get my drift. Quick release, attack the closeout, don't stop the ball, keep the defense scrambling.

So when people on the board scoff at other people saying "we don't need a PG", Dlo is good and Rubio "organizes the offense", that's fine and all, but it's not the optimal make up for the correct ingredients at the PG position (not to mention having Dlo out there in crunch time playing defense is a killer). So yes, Dlo and Rubio both have some nice aspects to their games, but what some of us are saying is that they just aren't the right fit. Ant is going to be the initiator at the end of quarters, at the end of games, and this is where leads are built and games are won and lost. So for me, the PG position is absolutely the fulcrum position for our success going forward, possibly even moreso than the PF position.

This is why every single draft I research PG's for specific traits, and they don't even have to be starting PG's. Just think of this last draft. There were 2-3 hard-nosed PG's that had these traits that I had identified that would have been huge gets in the late first or early 2nd - Payton Pritchard and Saben Lee. We all know about Pritchard, he would be ridiculously perfect in that situation catching a pass on the perimeter for a quick shot or attacking the closeout, and he's been a decent defender. If you haven't done your Saben Lee research, he's now starting for the Pistons as a rookie. Why? Because he can defend, hit the open 3, and attack closeouts like nobody's business. Coming into the draft, he was in the 99th percentile on rim attacks as far as frequency and finishing. He's tough as hell. I didn't expect him to be able to nail the 3 at the rate he's doing it at, but he is doing it none the less.

So to bring this full circle, knowing that free agents don't come here, the draft is where you target guys like this (and teams don't just trade away these players once they have them). In this draft there are 2 PG's that I can identify that I've seen play and researched that could be these types of players (there may be more). Davion Mitchell and Jared Butler, both Baylor Bears. I'm excluding Cunningham and Suggs here because OF COURSE they would fit the bill here too, although Suggs 3 pt shot worries me a bit. But both Mitchell and Butler are good to great defenders, have quick releases on their shots, and can attack closeouts if ran off the line. Ingredients. They are important people. We've GOT to surround Ant and KAT with another player of this type, or we won't progress to the next level.

If Dlo is going to be here for the next few years then fine, let him start games, score like he does during the less intense portions of the game. That could help build leads. But at end of quarters and end of games, the type of player that he is on BOTH ends just puts the kibosh on things. I would hope Finch would have the balls to put that in place, to say Dlo, get yours during the normal flow of the game, but when teams ratchet things up, we're going with a player who can defend, make a quick hitting 3, and attack closeouts and not stop the ball from moving. It would be an ego adjustment on Dlo's end, but in the grand scheme of things, if it worked and we were able to win because of it, you would hope that he would fall in line. So in the likely circumstance that we don't keep our pick, we've GOT to make some sort of trade to get a pick in the draft in the 15-20 range so we can nab either Mitchell or Butler. And then don't try to "force things" by making a bad move to try to upgrade the PF position. I'm on board with targetting Daniel Theis as our free agent signing. He's a C/PF but provides exactly what we need - a defensive dog presence as a rotation piece.

Starters - "the most likely scenario next year"
Dlo / Beas / Ant / Jmac / KAT

Closers
Mitchell / Beas / Ant / Jmac / KAT

Key front court presence in the rotation
Theis

Frankly, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if the rest of the bench would be completely different, but I don't have super high hopes for any of them except for maybe Nowell. You would think that Rubio, Culver, Okogie, and Naz might have some fans in other teams' front offices the Knicks have picks 17 and 21, maybe they'd deal one of those. The Rockets have 18, 23, 25. Etc. etc. Then the following draft we'll have our pick back and can pick things up from there...
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#2 » by Jedzz » Fri Apr 2, 2021 4:54 am

McDaniels is not named JMac. what is wrong with some of you? There was a JMac before he arrived and it fits the little guy better. McD works, JDan works. Jaden works. Come up with something better. I don't care if the real JMac is finally allowed to leave this team. McDaniels isn't JMac.

I was going to read all that but now I'm glad I scrolled down first. That little intentional ding gets you at least one less reader.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#3 » by winforlose » Fri Apr 2, 2021 9:02 am

Jedzz wrote:McDaniels is not named JMac. what is wrong with some of you? There was a JMac before he arrived and it fits the little guy better. McD works, JDan works. Jaden works. Come up with something better. I don't care if the real JMac is finally allowed to leave this team. McDaniels isn't JMac.

I was going to read all that but now I'm glad I scrolled down first. That little intentional ding gets you at least one less reader.


I use MCD, but Big Mac is likely going to be the official one like Ant or KAT. The issue is MCD was JMAC in high school and college so it is an adjustment for him.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#4 » by Jedzz » Fri Apr 2, 2021 11:34 am

winforlose wrote:
Jedzz wrote:McDaniels is not named JMac. what is wrong with some of you? There was a JMac before he arrived and it fits the little guy better. McD works, JDan works. Jaden works. Come up with something better. I don't care if the real JMac is finally allowed to leave this team. McDaniels isn't JMac.

I was going to read all that but now I'm glad I scrolled down first. That little intentional ding gets you at least one less reader.


I use MCD, but Big Mac is likely going to be the official one like Ant or KAT. The issue is MCD was JMAC in high school and college so it is an adjustment for him.
Yeah well too bad for his college days, all one season of it. Big Mac works too. I have used MCD plenty.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#5 » by winforlose » Fri Apr 2, 2021 11:51 am

Jedzz wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Jedzz wrote:McDaniels is not named JMac. what is wrong with some of you? There was a JMac before he arrived and it fits the little guy better. McD works, JDan works. Jaden works. Come up with something better. I don't care if the real JMac is finally allowed to leave this team. McDaniels isn't JMac.

I was going to read all that but now I'm glad I scrolled down first. That little intentional ding gets you at least one less reader.


I use MCD, but Big Mac is likely going to be the official one like Ant or KAT. The issue is MCD was JMAC in high school and college so it is an adjustment for him.
Yeah well too bad for his college days, all one season of it. Big Mac works too. I have used MCD plenty.


You missed the part where I said high school and college. Personally I am good with MCD, Big Mac, or just about any other nickname.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#6 » by Jedzz » Fri Apr 2, 2021 5:19 pm

winforlose wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
winforlose wrote:
I use MCD, but Big Mac is likely going to be the official one like Ant or KAT. The issue is MCD was JMAC in high school and college so it is an adjustment for him.
Yeah well too bad for his college days, all one season of it. Big Mac works too. I have used MCD plenty.


You missed the part where I said high school and college. Personally I am good with MCD, Big Mac, or just about any other nickname.


No I didn't miss that part. Frankly, I just don't care. I think it's just silly except for the people trying to push it forward now. Like they have two assure that a more highly drafted player or player they think is more important gets his hierarchy benefits in his prior nick, like a prior jersey number a star demands over an already existing player? People just disgust me on things such as this.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#7 » by winforlose » Fri Apr 2, 2021 10:22 pm

Jedzz wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Jedzz wrote: Yeah well too bad for his college days, all one season of it. Big Mac works too. I have used MCD plenty.


You missed the part where I said high school and college. Personally I am good with MCD, Big Mac, or just about any other nickname.


No I didn't miss that part. Frankly, I just don't care. I think it's just silly except for the people trying to push it forward now. Like they have two assure that a more highly drafted player or player they think is more important gets his hierarchy benefits in his prior nick, like a prior jersey number a star demands over an already existing player? People just disgust me on things such as this.


I think your too focused on the underlying politics. It’s just a nickname. Hell we have how many J names on this team. Every single one of them probably needs a nickname so the coach can have any hope of effectively communicating in a loud environment. Jaden, Jaylen, Jarrett, Jarred, Jordan, Jake, and Josh. Rounded up 47% of our roster has J names. Big Mac and little Mac will probably happen (if I know Benz) and no one will be JMAC.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#8 » by Slim Tubby » Fri Apr 2, 2021 11:15 pm

Jedzz wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Jedzz wrote: Yeah well too bad for his college days, all one season of it. Big Mac works too. I have used MCD plenty.


You missed the part where I said high school and college. Personally I am good with MCD, Big Mac, or just about any other nickname.


No I didn't miss that part. Frankly, I just don't care. I think it's just silly except for the people trying to push it forward now. Like they have two assure that a more highly drafted player or player they think is more important gets his hierarchy benefits in his prior nick, like a prior jersey number a star demands over an already existing player? People just disgust me on things such as this.

If you guys are over 12 years old, you’re both bat$hit crazy. Debating over a player’s **** nickname and then trying to dictate what’s appropriate for fans to use??? Simply **** unbelievable...


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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#9 » by Jedzz » Fri Apr 2, 2021 11:30 pm

Slim Tubby wrote:If you guys are over 12 years old, you’re both bat$hit crazy. Debating over a player’s **** nickname and then trying to dictate what’s appropriate for fans to use??? Simply **** unbelievable...


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We got you to post about it. If you are over 12 and taking the time to tell us how you feel about us debating nicknames, you might be bat$hit covid. Get yourself tested.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#10 » by Note30 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:07 am

When DLo returns we'll still be ass unless Ant explodes into a superstar next season.

I literally can't see a future where we make the playoffs with our current roster construction. Outside of the rookies and KAT it's been an absolute disappointment.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#11 » by Jedzz » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:04 pm

Note30 wrote:When DLo returns we'll still be ass unless Ant explodes into a superstar next season.

I literally can't see a future where we make the playoffs with our current roster construction. Outside of the rookies and KAT it's been an absolute disappointment.


I have to agree that the construction is a bunch of nonfits now. It didn't have to be, but it is now. We've discussed this all season. There is a small faction that still wants to see what they were building play out because that is a shorter timeframe to the team trying. Then there is the faction of people that just want to ride the new rookie's nuts as far as he can go and that's a more longterm time frame because we just aren't going to see consistency from him or the next drafted player for a number of years. I don't think the two builds can exist together as one so get ready for lots of changes again soon enough.

Kat being a center and easily being capable of allowing someone else to spear the offense was always going to be the point with Dlo/Beasley and was always going to have to be the case once the team got more capable players. Kat would still get his offense catered to, just not being the spear. It is no different now with Kat allowing Edwards to spear this thing. The issue of course is how are they possibly going to make use of all these guard spears now? Then they still have Rubio/JMac that don't even belong in such offenses unless for injury depth at best, and then Okogie, Culver, Nowell, this list just never ends in this logjam. If these other guards can't be counted on for consistent offball shooting I don't see where much of any of them fit as average or low minute role players.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#12 » by Calinks » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:31 pm

Note30 wrote:When DLo returns we'll still be ass unless Ant explodes into a superstar next season.

I literally can't see a future where we make the playoffs with our current roster construction. Outside of the rookies and KAT it's been an absolute disappointment.

I think with everyone hleathy and with some time together we will be a better team but I do agree the playoffs are still too far out of reach with this same roster next season. Thye kind of growth we would need from several players rarely happens to make the turn around for this team to be a solid playoff one.


I think we are going to have to move several young guys and dump some of the "dead weight" players we have. We need vets, we need higher BBIQ guys in bigger roles.

The other alternative is moving on from KAT and DLO, then you can keep all the young guys and hope to build anew. The problem with this is that it's another huge blow to the already half dead fanbase. It's also another 3-5 year plus period of being bad, tweaking rebuilding, etc. Rosas is probably fired if he does that unless Glenn is totally behind it, it hurts selling the team because it will be yet another failure to build a good team around an all-star talent. etc.

Either route, I'm pretty sure we are going to see a lot of movement after this season. We are going to lose some players we like but I think you need some significant moves. Talking 3-4 key new players plugged into this team to make a big change. Just hoping the young guys all take big enough leaps to make us competitive isn't enough IMO.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#13 » by Biff Cooper » Sun Apr 4, 2021 3:57 am

Pretty weak Jedazz. Wolfen writes a long post about the actual team and all you can do is rip on him about nicknames.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#14 » by Jedzz » Mon Apr 5, 2021 5:26 pm

Biff Cooper wrote:Pretty weak Jedazz.


You spelled my username wrong. I had to stop there.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#15 » by Klomp » Mon Apr 5, 2021 5:36 pm

Note30 wrote:When DLo returns we'll still be ass unless Ant explodes into a superstar next season.

I literally can't see a future where we make the playoffs with our current roster construction. Outside of the rookies and KAT it's been an absolute disappointment.

Malik Beasley has been a disappointment?
Jaylen Nowell has been a disappointment?
Naz Reid has been a disappointment?

Are you expecting these guys to be Shaq and Kobe or something? Because in no way do I think they've been disappointing....
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#16 » by Note30 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 8:54 pm

Klomp wrote:
Note30 wrote:When DLo returns we'll still be ass unless Ant explodes into a superstar next season.

I literally can't see a future where we make the playoffs with our current roster construction. Outside of the rookies and KAT it's been an absolute disappointment.

Malik Beasley has been a disappointment?
Jaylen Nowell has been a disappointment?
Naz Reid has been a disappointment?

Are you expecting these guys to be Shaq and Kobe or something? Because in no way do I think they've been disappointing....


It's the team as a whole. Yes it's been a disappointment, outside of seeing our rookies grow and KAT becoming more of a facilatator.

Regardless of their individual performances this team has been a disappointment.
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#17 » by Norseman79 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 9:11 pm

Jedzz wrote:
Note30 wrote:When DLo returns we'll still be ass unless Ant explodes into a superstar next season.

I literally can't see a future where we make the playoffs with our current roster construction. Outside of the rookies and KAT it's been an absolute disappointment.


I have to agree that the construction is a bunch of nonfits now. It didn't have to be, but it is now. We've discussed this all season. There is a small faction that still wants to see what they were building play out because that is a shorter timeframe to the team trying. Then there is the faction of people that just want to ride the new rookie's nuts as far as he can go and that's a more longterm time frame because we just aren't going to see consistency from him or the next drafted player for a number of years. I don't think the two builds can exist together as one so get ready for lots of changes again soon enough.

Kat being a center and easily being capable of allowing someone else to spear the offense was always going to be the point with Dlo/Beasley and was always going to have to be the case once the team got more capable players. Kat would still get his offense catered to, just not being the spear. It is no different now with Kat allowing Edwards to spear this thing. The issue of course is how are they possibly going to make use of all these guard spears now? Then they still have Rubio/JMac that don't even belong in such offenses unless for injury depth at best, and then Okogie, Culver, Nowell, this list just never ends in this logjam. If these other guards can't be counted on for consistent offball shooting I don't see where much of any of them fit as average or low minute role players.


The only, and I mean only way I see this working is of DLo is fine playing off ball a majority of the time...by that I mean giving it up to Ant for Any and Kat one or pnp and DLo sitting down for a kickout 3. Beasley turns into the 6 man. I would start Mcdaniels at the 3 and Juancho at the 4, because we all know we need a 4 and Mcdaniels isa great fit at the 3.

So... essentially

DLo, Nowell (I know, I know Rubio, but he doesn't fit this style as well as Nowell)
Edwards, Beasley (can play with either guy)
McDaniels, Okoge
Juancho, Layman, Juancho
Towns Reid...
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#18 » by Jedzz » Mon Apr 5, 2021 11:46 pm

Norseman79 wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Note30 wrote:When DLo returns we'll still be ass unless Ant explodes into a superstar next season.

I literally can't see a future where we make the playoffs with our current roster construction. Outside of the rookies and KAT it's been an absolute disappointment.


I have to agree that the construction is a bunch of nonfits now. It didn't have to be, but it is now. We've discussed this all season. There is a small faction that still wants to see what they were building play out because that is a shorter timeframe to the team trying. Then there is the faction of people that just want to ride the new rookie's nuts as far as he can go and that's a more longterm time frame because we just aren't going to see consistency from him or the next drafted player for a number of years. I don't think the two builds can exist together as one so get ready for lots of changes again soon enough.

Kat being a center and easily being capable of allowing someone else to spear the offense was always going to be the point with Dlo/Beasley and was always going to have to be the case once the team got more capable players. Kat would still get his offense catered to, just not being the spear. It is no different now with Kat allowing Edwards to spear this thing. The issue of course is how are they possibly going to make use of all these guard spears now? Then they still have Rubio/JMac that don't even belong in such offenses unless for injury depth at best, and then Okogie, Culver, Nowell, this list just never ends in this logjam. If these other guards can't be counted on for consistent offball shooting I don't see where much of any of them fit as average or low minute role players.


The only, and I mean only way I see this working is of DLo is fine playing off ball a majority of the time...by that I mean giving it up to Ant for Any and Kat one or pnp and DLo sitting down for a kickout 3. Beasley turns into the 6 man. I would start Mcdaniels at the 3 and Juancho at the 4, because we all know we need a 4 and Mcdaniels isa great fit at the 3.

So... essentially

DLo, Nowell (I know, I know Rubio, but he doesn't fit this style as well as Nowell)
Edwards, Beasley (can play with either guy)
McDaniels, Okoge
Juancho, Layman, Juancho
Towns Reid...


That's basically what all the draft centric fools have been saying since the day they drafted Edwards. Other than starting Rubio instead of what you've shown.

I agree that's one way to trying to make things work. But I will forever feel the need to point out the foolishness of taking any closer to Vet/prime age starters out of the starting line up just so we can insert rookies. That's why all the talk of playing Dlo away from his most productive position or forcing Beasley to 6th man makes my skin crawl. It would be different if we had a third year guy in Edwards who had already developed a little and was currently putting it all together and wasn't only limited to the things he knew coming in already. Say Edwards was even in year two in the spring and everything was starting to click for him and we had a starter who was only racking up 12pts a game such as JMac did in Philly's game. Then I would say go for it and let's see him take it and run with it. But we aren't in that situation, we are talking about two proven starters capable of 20ppg and for whatever reason people think top of draft means instant Lebron or bust if they don't start. When neither are the case. There is no reason ANT couldn't have been depth with this group. The Rubio factor really was the tipping scales issue in the logjam though. He didn't fit the offense they were to run this year and yet felt compelled to start him to. They just can't all coexist and still get the goods from all of them. ...Rosas
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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#19 » by Jedzz » Tue Apr 6, 2021 12:42 am

Norseman79 wrote:
The only, and I mean only way I see this working is of DLo is fine playing off ball a majority of the time...by that I mean giving it up to Ant for Any and Kat one or pnp and DLo sitting down for a kickout 3. Beasley turns into the 6 man. I would start Mcdaniels at the 3 and Juancho at the 4, because we all know we need a 4 and Mcdaniels isa great fit at the 3.

So... essentially

DLo, Nowell (I know, I know Rubio, but he doesn't fit this style as well as Nowell)
Edwards, Beasley (can play with either guy)
McDaniels, Okoge
Juancho, Layman, Juancho
Towns Reid...


To add to what you are showing there. Just wanted to show what ESPN is showing on a depth chart now. They have Beasley completely removed from the roster depth (because of recent injury or ?) They usually list the name and O for out or DD, etc. They also have Dlo starting SG and only as 5th depth PG. Always wondered if they reach out to teams for this or just guess. It's a mess for anyone to guess, even the coaches it seems.

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Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#20 » by Norseman79 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 3:56 am

Jedzz wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:
The only, and I mean only way I see this working is of DLo is fine playing off ball a majority of the time...by that I mean giving it up to Ant for Any and Kat one or pnp and DLo sitting down for a kickout 3. Beasley turns into the 6 man. I would start Mcdaniels at the 3 and Juancho at the 4, because we all know we need a 4 and Mcdaniels isa great fit at the 3.

So... essentially

DLo, Nowell (I know, I know Rubio, but he doesn't fit this style as well as Nowell)
Edwards, Beasley (can play with either guy)
McDaniels, Okoge
Juancho, Layman, Juancho
Towns Reid...


To add to what you are showing there. Just wanted to show what ESPN is showing on a depth chart now. They have Beasley completely removed from the roster depth (because of recent injury or ?) They usually list the name and O for out or DD, etc. They also have Dlo starting SG and only as 5th depth PG. Always wondered if they reach out to teams for this or just guess. It's a mess for anyone to guess, even the coaches it seems.

Image


It is absolutely stupid. Look, DLo is a competent NBA pg, I just don't see a fit unless they plan on changing his or Ants playing style. We have discussed that before. I am not saying that there is a right or wrong way, but pick a way and do something.

I still think Rosas believed he would get a nice shiny star player for the number 1, and when those trades never came he took the home run pick without worrying about fit. Problem now is enough people have seen him to probably raise his trade value, but fans would go ballistic because of the potential they see in him.

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