ImageImageImage

The team when DLo Returns...

Moderators: Domejandro, Calinks, Worm Guts

Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,503
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#21 » by Jedzz » Tue Apr 6, 2021 6:03 am

Norseman79 wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Norseman79 wrote:
The only, and I mean only way I see this working is of DLo is fine playing off ball a majority of the time...by that I mean giving it up to Ant for Any and Kat one or pnp and DLo sitting down for a kickout 3. Beasley turns into the 6 man. I would start Mcdaniels at the 3 and Juancho at the 4, because we all know we need a 4 and Mcdaniels isa great fit at the 3.

So... essentially

DLo, Nowell (I know, I know Rubio, but he doesn't fit this style as well as Nowell)
Edwards, Beasley (can play with either guy)
McDaniels, Okoge
Juancho, Layman, Juancho
Towns Reid...


To add to what you are showing there. Just wanted to show what ESPN is showing on a depth chart now. They have Beasley completely removed from the roster depth (because of recent injury or ?) They usually list the name and O for out or DD, etc. They also have Dlo starting SG and only as 5th depth PG. Always wondered if they reach out to teams for this or just guess. It's a mess for anyone to guess, even the coaches it seems.

Image


It is absolutely stupid. Look, DLo is a competent NBA pg, I just don't see a fit unless they plan on changing his or Ants playing style. We have discussed that before. I am not saying that there is a right or wrong way, but pick a way and do something.

I still think Rosas believed he would get a nice shiny star player for the number 1, and when those trades never came he took the home run pick without worrying about fit. Problem now is enough people have seen him to probably raise his trade value, but fans would go ballistic because of the potential they see in him.


So true, only he shouldn't have been concerned with the fans in this instance. Because had he made the F/PF trade he needed, the team could have been a winner. Then Fans are happy anyway. Were they going to be afraid of the no fans in seats of this season? IOr the 3k that are getting into seats now? The trade predraft or directly after really should have happened. Short of that, the deadline deal should have happened. This was the year he could have gotten away with not getting it done early. Oh well. Have to wait to see how they realign or don't now and this is what Rosas seemed to want, more time.
Nick K
Starter
Posts: 2,338
And1: 613
Joined: Nov 23, 2016
       

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#22 » by Nick K » Tue Apr 6, 2021 8:18 am

Jedzz wrote:McDaniels is not named JMac. what is wrong with some of you? There was a JMac before he arrived and it fits the little guy better. McD works, JDan works. Jaden works. Come up with something better. I don't care if the real JMac is finally allowed to leave this team. McDaniels isn't JMac.

I was going to read all that but now I'm glad I scrolled down first. That little intentional ding gets you at least one less reader.


Yup, McD works best.
Nick K
Starter
Posts: 2,338
And1: 613
Joined: Nov 23, 2016
       

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#23 » by Nick K » Tue Apr 6, 2021 8:31 am

wolfen wrote:Should be fun when Dlo does return, and it will probably make the offense more multi-tooled. BUT, last night's game, crunchtime, got me thinking. Ant did a great job at the end, getting into the teeth of the defense, collapsing it. He found Beas for a wide open 3, and that was perfectly executed. Beas will hit a good look like that more times than not. On top of that, if he's got a hand in his face, he's got such a quick and high release that it would still be a good look in that situation. The other thing that Beas does well in those situations is that if I guy is closing out hard, he makes a quick decision, he can pump and go quickly for an open pull-up, or just attack into the lane to keep the defense scrambling. So 2 great things - quick/high release, able to quickly attack a closeout and continue to make the defense scramble. Love it.

You would think that having Dlo on the floor in crunch time and having both he and Beas as catch and shoot guys would be even more effective, but I REALLY worry about Dlo in the catch and shoot in crunch time when defenses are playing tough. If he's wide open in that situation, then yes, that would be a great shot, but more times than not, you're not THAT wide open. So the more likely scenario is Dlo catching the pass from Ant with a defender closing out at him, and in those situations, Dlo struggles. He doesn't have the quickest release, he doesn't make a quick decision when a guy closes out on him hard, he stops the ball and tries to do his one on one thing, which kills the advantage you've just created by making the defense scramble.

So what is the point here. The point is that when it's winning time, you have to have the right ingredients. Imagine if you would magically have Fred VanVleet on this team in that situation with Ant attacking, scoring if he can, collapsing the defense, and passing to the perimeter if he's covered. Yes, it would be nice to find a wide open Beas, but also having Van Vleet out there would be spectacular because he CAN catch and shoot quickly but he can also quickly destroy a closeout, and he won't stop the ball like Dlo. Frankly, I'd rather have Nowell out there in that situation over either Dlo or Rubio (duh) because he has shown those abilities as well. Of course, not the level of VanVleet, but you get my drift. Quick release, attack the closeout, don't stop the ball, keep the defense scrambling.

So when people on the board scoff at other people saying "we don't need a PG", Dlo is good and Rubio "organizes the offense", that's fine and all, but it's not the optimal make up for the correct ingredients at the PG position (not to mention having Dlo out there in crunch time playing defense is a killer). So yes, Dlo and Rubio both have some nice aspects to their games, but what some of us are saying is that they just aren't the right fit. Ant is going to be the initiator at the end of quarters, at the end of games, and this is where leads are built and games are won and lost. So for me, the PG position is absolutely the fulcrum position for our success going forward, possibly even moreso than the PF position.

This is why every single draft I research PG's for specific traits, and they don't even have to be starting PG's. Just think of this last draft. There were 2-3 hard-nosed PG's that had these traits that I had identified that would have been huge gets in the late first or early 2nd - Payton Pritchard and Saben Lee. We all know about Pritchard, he would be ridiculously perfect in that situation catching a pass on the perimeter for a quick shot or attacking the closeout, and he's been a decent defender. If you haven't done your Saben Lee research, he's now starting for the Pistons as a rookie. Why? Because he can defend, hit the open 3, and attack closeouts like nobody's business. Coming into the draft, he was in the 99th percentile on rim attacks as far as frequency and finishing. He's tough as hell. I didn't expect him to be able to nail the 3 at the rate he's doing it at, but he is doing it none the less.

So to bring this full circle, knowing that free agents don't come here, the draft is where you target guys like this (and teams don't just trade away these players once they have them). In this draft there are 2 PG's that I can identify that I've seen play and researched that could be these types of players (there may be more). Davion Mitchell and Jared Butler, both Baylor Bears. I'm excluding Cunningham and Suggs here because OF COURSE they would fit the bill here too, although Suggs 3 pt shot worries me a bit. But both Mitchell and Butler are good to great defenders, have quick releases on their shots, and can attack closeouts if ran off the line. Ingredients. They are important people. We've GOT to surround Ant and KAT with another player of this type, or we won't progress to the next level.

If Dlo is going to be here for the next few years then fine, let him start games, score like he does during the less intense portions of the game. That could help build leads. But at end of quarters and end of games, the type of player that he is on BOTH ends just puts the kibosh on things. I would hope Finch would have the balls to put that in place, to say Dlo, get yours during the normal flow of the game, but when teams ratchet things up, we're going with a player who can defend, make a quick hitting 3, and attack closeouts and not stop the ball from moving. It would be an ego adjustment on Dlo's end, but in the grand scheme of things, if it worked and we were able to win because of it, you would hope that he would fall in line. So in the likely circumstance that we don't keep our pick, we've GOT to make some sort of trade to get a pick in the draft in the 15-20 range so we can nab either Mitchell or Butler. And then don't try to "force things" by making a bad move to try to upgrade the PF position. I'm on board with targetting Daniel Theis as our free agent signing. He's a C/PF but provides exactly what we need - a defensive dog presence as a rotation piece.

Starters - "the most likely scenario next year"
Dlo / Beas / Ant / Jmac / KAT

Closers
Mitchell / Beas / Ant / Jmac / KAT

Key front court presence in the rotation
Theis

Frankly, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if the rest of the bench would be completely different, but I don't have super high hopes for any of them except for maybe Nowell. You would think that Rubio, Culver, Okogie, and Naz might have some fans in other teams' front offices the Knicks have picks 17 and 21, maybe they'd deal one of those. The Rockets have 18, 23, 25. Etc. etc. Then the following draft we'll have our pick back and can pick things up from there...


Good stuff wolfen. I like most all of it.

Finch somehow has to find a way to muzzle Dlo. Dlo can shoot no doubt but he can't lead the team in shots every night. Since Dlo can't drive to the basket he's really just a playground chucker. He has to defer and make others better periodically. The only guy I can live with shooting and missing is Kat. His missing won;t last long.

Dlo won't come off the bench. No way. Beasley would be my ideal 6th man.

If we're lucky enough to keep our pick I would love to see Mobley next to Towns with McD at the 3 with Dlo and Ant.

I love the MN kid Suggs but I don't know how he and Dlo co-exist.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,902
And1: 12,699
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#24 » by Klomp » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:17 pm

I really like the six-man group of Russell, Beasley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns and Reid. Enough flexibility to play around with the lineups without having it set in cement. But most games, it would be the first five starting with Reid off the bench.

I don't think we need drastic changes. There will be moves, but I'd focus more on bolstering the bench rather than the starters. I don't want to give up any of those six guys.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
User avatar
_AIJ_
General Manager
Posts: 8,838
And1: 2,415
Joined: Oct 15, 2008
Location: 13 years...
     

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#25 » by _AIJ_ » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:49 pm

Klomp wrote:I really like the six-man group of Russell, Beasley, Edwards, McDaniels, Towns and Reid. Enough flexibility to play around with the lineups without having it set in cement. But most games, it would be the first five starting with Reid off the bench.

I don't think we need drastic changes. There will be moves, but I'd focus more on bolstering the bench rather than the starters. I don't want to give up any of those six guys.

I agree. But i think you can add Nowell on there too
TIMBERWOLVES FOR LIFE :cry:
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 46,228
And1: 6,488
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#26 » by shrink » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:26 pm

Russell played offball 23 of 24 minutes in the SAC game, and that helps the team as constructed, getting Rubio on the floor. I hope that Russell is willing to continue to operate offball - he will still get his touches with Rubio out there.

The problem will be finding minutes at SG. If Russell gets 20-30 out there, and Beasley can only play SG, and the Wolves want to develop Anthony Edwards at SG, the minutes will be hard to find. Right now, Beasley may have been shut down for the rest of the season, but next year this is a big issue.

But I am encouraged to see DLo willing to play out there, and anxious to see our next game. And I can’t remember the last time I said that.
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 56,902
And1: 12,699
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#27 » by Klomp » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:30 pm

shrink wrote:Russell played offball 23 of 24 minutes in the SAC game, and that helps the team as constructed, getting Rubio on the floor. I hope that Russell is willing to continue to operate offball - he will still get his touches with Rubio out there.

The problem will be finding minutes at SG. If Russell gets 20-30 out there, and Beasley can only play SG, and the Wolves want to develop Anthony Edwards at SG, the minutes will be hard to find. Right now, Beasley may have been shut down for the rest of the season, but next year this is a big issue.

But I am encouraged to see DLo willing to play out there, and anxious to see our next game. And I can’t remember the last time I said that.

There are 144 minutes to split at PG, SG and SF. Russell, Beasley, Edwards and Rubio are only four players. 30 mpg for all still leaves 24 minutes to play around with.
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
shrink
RealGM
Posts: 46,228
And1: 6,488
Joined: Sep 26, 2005

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#28 » by shrink » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:39 pm

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Russell played offball 23 of 24 minutes in the SAC game, and that helps the team as constructed, getting Rubio on the floor. I hope that Russell is willing to continue to operate offball - he will still get his touches with Rubio out there.

The problem will be finding minutes at SG. If Russell gets 20-30 out there, and Beasley can only play SG, and the Wolves want to develop Anthony Edwards at SG, the minutes will be hard to find. Right now, Beasley may have been shut down for the rest of the season, but next year this is a big issue.

But I am encouraged to see DLo willing to play out there, and anxious to see our next game. And I can’t remember the last time I said that.

There are 144 minutes to split at PG, SG and SF. Russell, Beasley, Edwards and Rubio are only four players. 30 mpg for all still leaves 24 minutes to play around with.

Even in positionless basketball, Edwards is really the only one who can credibly defend SF’s, and his best position is still at SG.

If we did 30 minutes for each of these four

Rubio (30 PG)
Russell (18 PG, 12 SG)
Beasley (30 SG)
Edwards (6 SG, 24 SF)

I also don’t like that this means zero minutes for Nowell and JMac.
wolves_89
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,183
And1: 2,373
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
 

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#29 » by wolves_89 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 10:02 pm

shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Russell played offball 23 of 24 minutes in the SAC game, and that helps the team as constructed, getting Rubio on the floor. I hope that Russell is willing to continue to operate offball - he will still get his touches with Rubio out there.

The problem will be finding minutes at SG. If Russell gets 20-30 out there, and Beasley can only play SG, and the Wolves want to develop Anthony Edwards at SG, the minutes will be hard to find. Right now, Beasley may have been shut down for the rest of the season, but next year this is a big issue.

But I am encouraged to see DLo willing to play out there, and anxious to see our next game. And I can’t remember the last time I said that.

There are 144 minutes to split at PG, SG and SF. Russell, Beasley, Edwards and Rubio are only four players. 30 mpg for all still leaves 24 minutes to play around with.

Even in positionless basketball, Edwards is really the only one who can credibly defend SF’s, and his best position is still at SG.

If we did 30 minutes for each of these four

Rubio (30 PG)
Russell (18 PG, 12 SG)
Beasley (30 SG)
Edwards (6 SG, 24 SF)

I also don’t like that this means zero minutes for Nowell and JMac.


Since Beasley looks to be done for the year, there shouldn't be much of an issue with minutes the rest of this season. As far as the future, I'll be surprised if both Rubio and Beasley are on the opening day Wolves roster next season. I expect at least one of them will be traded in a deal for big to pair with KAT.
Nick K
Starter
Posts: 2,338
And1: 613
Joined: Nov 23, 2016
       

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#30 » by Nick K » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:09 pm

I still think Beasley should come off the bench as 6th man instant scorer. You have to find time for McD. He should start.
wolfen
Senior
Posts: 685
And1: 206
Joined: Apr 05, 2014
     

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#31 » by wolfen » Fri Apr 9, 2021 9:02 pm

Update...
So far, 2 games in with DLo back. One stinker of a loss, and one win against a crap team. Rubes can easily get excited and blinded when DLo has a good game in a win against crap teams, but that really should be the low end of the bar. Let's see what tonight brings against the C's...
winforlose
Pro Prospect
Posts: 871
And1: 298
Joined: Feb 27, 2020

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#32 » by winforlose » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:17 am

wolfen wrote:Update...
So far, 2 games in with DLo back. One stinker of a loss, and one win against a crap team. Rubes can easily get excited and blinded when DLo has a good game in a win against crap teams, but that really should be the low end of the bar. Let's see what tonight brings against the C's...


If your judging the earliest games back of course you are gonna find things to complain about. Name one player who didn’t miss a beat after 26 missed games? Also the loss of Beasley is part of the conversation that is missing from your post. People were excited (myself included,) to see the whole roster for once. Now we lose Beasley and Nowell and Dlo ends up playing SG (not the worst idea honestly,) instead of PG. What I do find encouraging so far is Dlo’s passing and willingness to give up the ball. He still chucks a bit (shooting without passing early in the shot clock,) but overall he has been a bit better since coming back. His two man game with KAT is also nice.
TheZachAttack
Rookie
Posts: 1,013
And1: 741
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
       

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#33 » by TheZachAttack » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:45 pm

Not sure where to put this, but here’s a Dane Moore tweet:

Finch on D'Lo playing w/ another PG: "In our primary system, we'd have multiple handlers. I think he could play on or off the ball for us. I kinda like him playing off the ball and then getting the ball back early."


I really like the way Finch seems to be able to diagnose ways to make our players most effective on offense at least. The way that he’s come in and increased Towns touches, utilized him as a playmaker, and on the elbow/etc, put Edwards in positions to take a step forward, and now this for D Lo? Love it. I love that he quickly realized that McDaniels deserved more time in the rotation and is even playing Naz/Towns lineups. In addition, he even unlocked Nowell playing him on ball even if that was out of necessity.
Biff Cooper
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,385
And1: 94
Joined: Jan 02, 2009
Location: Northern Minnesota
 

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#34 » by Biff Cooper » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:22 pm

Not really what this thread is about, but he seems to have lost a little weight while he was out with injury. Looks healthier.
wolves_89
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,183
And1: 2,373
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
 

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#35 » by wolves_89 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:14 am

Biff Cooper wrote:Not really what this thread is about, but he seems to have lost a little weight while he was out with injury. Looks healthier.


I noticed DLO looking more athletic as well. Before going out with the injury, he looked really slow and somewhat out of shape. Since he's been back he seems like he's moving much better and is able to make stop-and-go cuts that are significantly quicker than anything he showed earlier in the year.
ClarkeW
Freshman
Posts: 73
And1: 30
Joined: Nov 28, 2019
   

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#36 » by ClarkeW » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:04 pm

wolves_89 wrote:
Biff Cooper wrote:Not really what this thread is about, but he seems to have lost a little weight while he was out with injury. Looks healthier.


I noticed DLO looking more athletic as well. Before going out with the injury, he looked really slow and somewhat out of shape. Since he's been back he seems like he's moving much better and is able to make stop-and-go cuts that are significantly quicker than anything he showed earlier in the year.


Agreed. You have to think some of that looking slower earlier in the year had to be whatever knee stuff he was playing through. Glad he got that procedure done when he did instead of waiting for the off-season.
jpatrick
Analyst
Posts: 3,195
And1: 950
Joined: May 30, 2007
 

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#37 » by jpatrick » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:07 pm

ClarkeW wrote:
wolves_89 wrote:
Biff Cooper wrote:Not really what this thread is about, but he seems to have lost a little weight while he was out with injury. Looks healthier.


I noticed DLO looking more athletic as well. Before going out with the injury, he looked really slow and somewhat out of shape. Since he's been back he seems like he's moving much better and is able to make stop-and-go cuts that are significantly quicker than anything he showed earlier in the year.


Agreed. You have to think some of that looking slower earlier in the year had to be whatever knee stuff he was playing through. Glad he got that procedure done when he did instead of waiting for the off-season.


He seems to also be attacking the rim a little more than I ever remember as well. He’s been a guy that went to the line at a historically low rate but he’s definitely made it an emphasis to attack a bit more.
wolfen
Senior
Posts: 685
And1: 206
Joined: Apr 05, 2014
     

Re: The team when DLo Returns... 

Post#38 » by wolfen » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:42 pm

So far the thing that sticks out to me is that Finch isn't throwing the same "hey Dlo do a pick and roll over and over" BS out there. His coaching on the offensive end is more diverse, and Dlo is benefitting from that. I love the "horns" action with DLo, KAt, and Ant. All 3 are major threats and the action itself has so many options. And it actually does allow for Okogie to be on the floor as a defensive specialist since he almost never touches the ball on offense, but yet defenses aren't slowing us down becuase of that. That's huge. It would be nice to have a great offensive rebounder in there to grab some extra posessions when we do run the horns setup. Right now McD does try to fly in there to grab a miss, but he's just not strong enough for that yet. Another reason to lure Daniel Theis to the squad next year...

Return to Minnesota Timberwolves