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*** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN ***

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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#121 » by Neeva » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:13 am

Ant and our top three pick (hopefully Jalen Green, fingers crossed!) To be the most exciting backcourt in the entire league.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#122 » by winforlose » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:35 am

With Rubio or Dlo we win that game. Things went off the rails when JMAC sat down in the third and the Griz realized we have no PG to run the offense. A bunch of turnovers later and everything goes to hell. Also, they shot well above their average from 3 and we shot well below ours. KAT, Beasley, Nowell, and Juancho were all really bad from distance. Sometimes it’s no ones fault because it’s everyone’s fault.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#123 » by ChiefKeith91 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 8:44 am

Calinks wrote:We need a new defensive scheme next season yet again. We give teams far too many three-pointers, Grizzlies average 10, tonight they almost have 20. The worst shooting teams in the league go off on us beyond the mark and of course, we don't have the shooting to keep up. Something has to be done about that next season its really bad.

Agreed. I think it starts with how we defend the PNR and go under screens.


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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#124 » by Jedzz » Sat Apr 3, 2021 1:45 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:

Thanks! The biggest advantage I see in the types of action they are running is that they can choose to get Towns whatever number of primary action touches in sets that they want to. McLaughlin simply initiates a play that gets Towns the primary touch in the post, on the elbow, or at the top of the key in whatever type of way they want to do that.


McLaughlin wasn't initiating anything while both Edwards and Towns are playing. You want to show us the two clips of the two possessions it happened on and call that what was happening all game?

There is a two man game going on with Ant/Towns part of the time. Otherwise Ant is doing what many claim to hate about Dlo's game. Ant just doesn't have the team IQ yet to get everyone involved doing so. Thankfully he's got his own ability to finish at the rim when he decides to. This isn't great half court offense or even remotely using all 5 guys. This is star ball, which is fine when the two with upper tier abilities are actually hitting their shots.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#125 » by TheZachAttack » Sat Apr 3, 2021 3:02 pm

Jedzz wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:

Thanks! The biggest advantage I see in the types of action they are running is that they can choose to get Towns whatever number of primary action touches in sets that they want to. McLaughlin simply initiates a play that gets Towns the primary touch in the post, on the elbow, or at the top of the key in whatever type of way they want to do that.


McLaughlin wasn't initiating anything while both Edwards and Towns are playing. You want to show us the two clips of the two possessions it happened on and call that what was happening all game?

There is a two man game going on with Ant/Towns part of the time. Otherwise Ant is doing what many claim to hate about Dlo's game. Ant just doesn't have the team IQ yet to get everyone involved doing so. Thankfully he's got his own ability to finish at the rim when he decides to. This isn't great half court offense or even remotely using all 5 guys. This is star ball, which is fine when the two with upper tier abilities are actually hitting their shots.


I mean Finch even separates positions into initiators, wings, etc. All initiating means in a basketball term is literally taking the ball up the court and then say throwing a post entry pass or timing a hand off or swinging the ball to Ant once Towns is ready to set the screen and then clearing out and spacing to the corner or just spacing for Edwards. That is initiating the offense. That is getting a team into their set.

The Wolves are not asking Edwards to get them into their half court sets. They are using Edwards as the primary creator or finisher on a lot of half court sets. But just because a large number of their offensive sets involve offensive plays either clearing out for Edwards and getting Edwards into a two man game with Towns again doesn’t mean he’s playing PG.

McLaughlin is the one who is making the post entry passes to Towns or getting Towns his elbow touches. The are not burdening Edwards with that level of responsibility yet. Again, you can disagree and maybe you just use different terminology... but this is how a basketball person or a basketball coach would describe it to you and to be clear they are different things from what Ant is doing.

It really doesn’t matter what you think or don’t think because that’s what’s happening.

The D Lo situation is different because D lo is asked to both initiate the offense and also the Wolves want to run a number of half court sets where the primary action is D Lo trying to create for himself by creating an open jump shot or getting to the rim (which he’s not great at) or playing two-man with Towns, but he’s not great at both doing that and also making sure to be initiating offensive sets to have primary actions for other players—which is why his offense is so frustrating.

What Rosas has said in recent interviews is that the structure with Ryan was wrong—Ryan really wasn’t calling sets or forcing D lo to abide by those sets. He was relying on D Lo to use his decision making and feel to decide the right prioritization of balancing initiating action where he is the primary offensive option while also making sure to get others involved. The idea is that Finch will be able to insert this structure by calling plays and not forcing the team to rely on D Lo’s natural decision making which will make sure that the Wolves offense is balanced between creating primary action for Towns, Edwards, and D Lo.

Again, you can disagree but this is exactly what Rosas or Finch would explain to you if you were sitting in a room with them and asking them about Edwards or D Lo and the differences between what they are asked to do.

You don’t have to, but I again suggest you to watch other teams with volume scoring wing players who get a lot of actions run for them in the half court and what that looks like. It’s different than being asked to play PG and just because Ant has the ball in his hands a lot and is taking a lot of shots that doesn’t mean he’s playing PG.

What do you think the Wolves are trying to do when they are setting up primary action to get Ant the ball as Towns is setting a screen? This is not action designed for Edwards to swing the ball to the corner... this is action designed to allow Edwards to try to get to the rim and collapse the defense or shoot a 3 point shot if teams go under the screen.

The hope is that Edwards will also be able to develop a few consistent simple reads off this action to hit Towns for 3 pointers if teams collapse on his drives (which he’s okay at) or kick to the corner (he’s not as good at this). However, all this again is not him playing PG. In addition, him holding the ball in these situations and trying to create angles for penetration to the rim is by design of what that play is supposed to look like.

Also, again, I’m not looking for an argument here because I’m literally just explaining what’s happening. You can say that the Wolves shouldn’t run an offense relying on lots of possessions designed for Edwards to be the primary action... but I’m just trying to teach you how to observe a layer deeper on what’s happening on the court.

Edit - I will try and find some time stamps when the highlights come out that hopefully show full plays. I think some of what I’m saying might be semantics to you, but I think it’s an important nuance and I’m happy to explain in more detail why.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#126 » by LesGrossman » Sat Apr 3, 2021 3:04 pm

Neeva wrote:Ant and our top three pick (hopefully Jalen Green, fingers crossed!) To be the most exciting backcourt in the entire league.

Wow.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#127 » by Jedzz » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:12 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:

Thanks! The biggest advantage I see in the types of action they are running is that they can choose to get Towns whatever number of primary action touches in sets that they want to. McLaughlin simply initiates a play that gets Towns the primary touch in the post, on the elbow, or at the top of the key in whatever type of way they want to do that.


McLaughlin wasn't initiating anything while both Edwards and Towns are playing. You want to show us the two clips of the two possessions it happened on and call that what was happening all game?

There is a two man game going on with Ant/Towns part of the time. Otherwise Ant is doing what many claim to hate about Dlo's game. Ant just doesn't have the team IQ yet to get everyone involved doing so. Thankfully he's got his own ability to finish at the rim when he decides to. This isn't great half court offense or even remotely using all 5 guys. This is star ball, which is fine when the two with upper tier abilities are actually hitting their shots.


I mean Finch even separates positions into initiators, wings, etc. All initiating means in a basketball term is literally taking the ball up the court and then say throwing a post entry pass or timing a hand off or swinging the ball to Ant once Towns is ready to set the screen and then clearing out and spacing to the corner or just spacing for Edwards.


Show us the clips of Mclaughlin doing so with Edwards. I counted one, maybe two, maybe not two, possessions with Edwards where he even touched a ball. See if you can find them. Your descriptions have been fairytales and unrelated to any point I've made. He's not "walking it up" with him. This little line about clearing out and spacing to the corner or "just spacing for Edwards", that's all he does and just go stand in the corner. He's not spacing for Edwards because Edwards is never going to make McLaughlin that outside threat by...passing to him. This is my point. He shouldn't be playing with Edwards. No points should be playing with Edwards. Can't wait until Dlo plays to see what they plan on doing then. At least Towns got Edwards to see that Rubio exists. I wish someone carried the stats of how many times someone like Edwards has ever passed to the offball JMac or Dlo. It's what made Rubio a bystander to start the season.

I've been complaining about two point guard lineups for years under three different coaches now and it's no differnt now with Ant. JMac is probably the only point the team has had who can both play the way they are allowing Edwards to and also get more of the team involved still with timing they can hit shots with. Dlo might be second. Edwards is just too into himself yet to play with a team this way. But if that's going to be the case...there are different players to be around him.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#128 » by Jedzz » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:36 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:McLaughlin is the one who is making the post entry passes to Towns or getting Towns his elbow touches. The are not burdening Edwards with that level of responsibility yet. Again, you can disagree and maybe you just use different terminology... but this is how a basketball person or a basketball coach would describe it to you and to be clear they are different things from what Ant is doing.


You are making arguments that don't belong in the discussion with me. I never claimed Ant is doing the same things. I never claimed they even can play the same or that the team is asking them to. I know Ant can't yet, and maybe will never choose to. This is just the only way Ant can currently play. This isn't even the best use of JMac in a point role even when Ant's not on the court, but it's what they are asking of him now. The lame post entry passes and deferring to Towns immediately...is lame to me. But whatever, that's the great offensive minds we have using traditional PGs here.

The only point I was making is that McLaughlin should not be on the court, this time starting, when Ant is starting because JMac isn't even handling the stupid entry pass, walking it up, or the lame hand off you think so highly of. He's just not involved at all. You can claim he's not the focus but nobody is arguing that he should be. But he's a point guard first that just happens to have some shooting ability for outside. But Ant will never even look to him as a kickout. Larger, better shooters should be out there on the wing standing around spacing. So...maybe Nowell should have gotten the start. They are better suited to help on defense and maybe large enough targets for Ant to see for a pass if needed. Maybe that won't even help, I can't foretell.

JMac is actually much better playing exactly like Ant is trying to. Only JMac can more regularly kick out and make passes internally around the paint. But this team is asking him to play like Rubio so that's mostly what he's been doing with any minutes this year. This team never even knows its own players. I saw JMac running with the bench a few minutes last night with no Edwards and I saw him drive the net a couple times yet it wasn't JMac's best. It was hesitant and half hearted drives probably because he's been asked to play a different way all season.

What really makes me laugh is how you descibe exactly what I've been saying, that this is all just designed for Ant to get his three off or to drive in and collapse the defense, or for the Kat/Edwards two man game. There is nothing else there. Even when Ant collapses the defense...there is only a couple players he would kick it to. They should have more cutters making themselves available to Ant as well, and JMac isn't going to be that guy either. Layman, Culver could be. Juancho standing around the paint was more useful in that game.

People complained to hell and back when Dlo dribbles buying team to see the defense react and then makes a decision to take his own shot or to feed someone. Edwards without Kat is doing the exact same even in last nights game. It's just no different except for how much the other players are going to feel like they are in the flow of the game. Because Edwards will call his own number more for shots and for driving in. Maybe that's why others are shooting terribly as they are just bystanders too much. There is no five out, no five on a string, no movement offense. This is still all fine...two man "star" game...fine. I don't care. But then put the right players out there together.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#129 » by TheZachAttack » Sat Apr 3, 2021 9:47 pm

Jedzz wrote:
TheZachAttack wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
McLaughlin wasn't initiating anything while both Edwards and Towns are playing. You want to show us the two clips of the two possessions it happened on and call that what was happening all game?

There is a two man game going on with Ant/Towns part of the time. Otherwise Ant is doing what many claim to hate about Dlo's game. Ant just doesn't have the team IQ yet to get everyone involved doing so. Thankfully he's got his own ability to finish at the rim when he decides to. This isn't great half court offense or even remotely using all 5 guys. This is star ball, which is fine when the two with upper tier abilities are actually hitting their shots.


I mean Finch even separates positions into initiators, wings, etc. All initiating means in a basketball term is literally taking the ball up the court and then say throwing a post entry pass or timing a hand off or swinging the ball to Ant once Towns is ready to set the screen and then clearing out and spacing to the corner or just spacing for Edwards.


Show us the clips of Mclaughlin doing so with Edwards. I counted one, maybe two, maybe not two, possessions with Edwards where he even touched a ball. See if you can find them. Your descriptions have been fairytales and unrelated to any point I've made. He's not "walking it up" with him. This little line about clearing out and spacing to the corner or "just spacing for Edwards", that's all he does and just go stand in the corner. He's not spacing for Edwards because Edwards is never going to make McLaughlin that outside threat by...passing to him. This is my point. He shouldn't be playing with Edwards. No points should be playing with Edwards. Can't wait until Dlo plays to see what they plan on doing then. At least Towns got Edwards to see that Rubio exists. I wish someone carried the stats of how many times someone like Edwards has ever passed to the offball JMac or Dlo. It's what made Rubio a bystander to start the season.

I've been complaining about two point guard lineups for years under three different coaches now and it's no differnt now with Ant. JMac is probably the only point the team has had who can both play the way they are allowing Edwards to and also get more of the team involved still with timing they can hit shots with. Dlo might be second. Edwards is just too into himself yet to play with a team this way. But if that's going to be the case...there are different players to be around him.


I feel like you are being purposefully dense to argue. I am not disagreeing with you on Ant’s current limitations. This is why I said many times I think that we may just be using different terminology. However, those limitations are why Ant is not playing PG yet and why a PG needs to be on the floor with him.

I will put it really simply and since you agree that Ant is not doing things like post or elbow touches to Towns and that you also agree he cannot do those things yet this should be really easy for you.

The reason that you cannot play Ant without a PG on the floor is because the team needs someone to set up those actions—Ant cannot at this time in his career. If you play Ant with all wings and Towns (as you mentioned we might as well at this point) than you are asking Ant to do those things which you say he’s not capable of.

The Wolves use Ant as the primary action on a lot of half court possessions, but not all. In fact, Towns gets more primary action touches than KAT. If you play Ant without a PG, there is nobody that will be able to consistently and reliably set up other types of action—including most of KATs primary touches.


McLaughlin is not on the floor with the starters to be the person with the ball in his hands and trying to play like Chris Paul and dribble around and find others and score. He’s on the floor because of his reliability as a ball-handler and as a passer and his ability to initiate the those types of actions that Ant cannot at this point in his career. He’s also on the floor because he’s a decent 3-point shooter—which means he’s not an absolute minus when he doesn’t have the ball in his hands. It’s really very simple.

You are saying that Ant is playing PG. He’s not. He’s not because he’s not yet capable of being able to do those things which you say he cannot do. He cannot consistently do any other action than actions with him as the primary ball handler. You agree that he can’t do these things yet you say that you want him to be put in a position where he HAS to do these things because there are more possessions where that skill is needed in the Wolves offense despite Edwards high usage rate.

It should not be this difficult for you.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#130 » by Jedzz » Sat Apr 3, 2021 10:02 pm

TheZachAttack wrote:McLaughlin is not on the floor with the starters to be the person with the ball in his hands and trying to play like Chris Paul and dribble around and find others and score. He’s on the floor because of his reliability as a ball-handler and as a passer and his ability to initiate the those types of actions that Ant cannot at this point in his career.



I feel like you are being purposefully dense to argue. I've already many times stated that McLaughlin isn't initiating when Ant is on the floor with him. That's the only point I've been making. Yet you keep claiming he is.

Maybe you weren't paying attention to the little guy in the starting rotation. Not surprising his own starters aren't.
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Re: *** Grizzlies vs Wolves - Friday Night -8pm CT FSN *** 

Post#131 » by LesGrossman » Sun Apr 4, 2021 12:37 pm

Why are you even arguing over these two guys as if they made any difference right now?

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