VOTE! The “Other Big” Archetype - Max Level

[shrink]

The new Dane Moore pod on Bolmaro has an interesting feature at the end - talking about what type of archetype we need next to KAT.

It looks like the initial archetype, “SF that can shoot the three,” didn’t fit, even with good players like Covington. He listed three archetypes in the max level category. I was curious how a poll would work. Assume we had our choice of trading for any of these players at a fair price. I’m willing to modify any of these descriptions.

Myles Turner: Great rim protector. Can shoot the three. Forces Towns to play more PF

John Collins: Good pick and roll. Lob Threat. Lesser defense.

Ben Simmons: Elite perimeter defender. Can guard 1-5. Good passer. Horrible shooter.

Other: I would rather have someone else over 1-3 of these guys.

[minimus]

I think that RoCo at PF experiment was largely a failure. However, if we can find two interchangeable combo forwards at PF/SF it might be a solution to our problem. For instance, current version of RoCo+McDaniels. My dream scenario is Anunoby+McDaniels. I am big fan of Xavier Tillman. I wish we traded for him last year

[TheProdigy]

The new Dane Moore pod on Bolmaro has an interesting feature at the end - talking about what type of archetype we need next to KAT.

It looks like the initial archetype, “SF that can shoot the three,” didn’t fit, even with good players like Covington. He listed three archetypes in the max level category. I was curious how a poll would work. Assume we had our choice of trading for any of these players at a fair price. I’m willing to modify any of these descriptions.

Myles Turner: Great rim protector. Can shoot the three. Forces Towns to play more PF

John Collins: Good pick and roll. Lob Threat. Lesser defense.

Ben Simmons: Elite perimeter defender. Can guard 1-5. Good passer. Horrible shooter.

Other: I would rather have someone else over 1-3 of these guys.

I don't think the primary concern anymore is what type of player fits best next to KAT. He's not a great rim defender and his size/huge feet will be a detriment to defending on the perimeter. The far more interesting question is what type of player fits best with Edwards? You mentioned that the Covington archtype didn't fit with KAT, but I think that's exactly the type of player we need to be surrounding Edwards with.

Our top priorities for roster construction should be 1) creating space for Edwards to attack the rim, and 2) being able to switch on picks and screens. In order for Edwards to reach his potential, he needs to learn how to read defenses and drive/kick to open shooters.

Of the three options you mentioned, the only one that plays above average defense and can hit 3s is Myles Turner. The problem then is you're playing KAT at the 4 which takes away your switchability.

[Krapinsky]

Rather than a skill set, I've long thought that we need someone that brings toughness and who can set the tone defensively for the rest of the team. We need our enforcer. It seems most championship teams have a guy like that -- a Rodman, Oakley, Wallace, Draymond, Artest, etc. I think Taj fit the bill a little bit, but he was long in the tooth and much more of a 5 than a 4 while he was here and for that reason wasn't the best fit next to Towns.

Jae Crowder is that guy for Phx this year. The Clippers have one of the Morris twins. The Bucks have PJ Tucker. The Hawks don't really have a 'guy' but Capela, Collins, and Hill (having replaced Hunter) are sharing the load.

[SO_MONEY]

I kind of lumped some guys into groups, rough groups, hell if I know, I tend to think option 6 if it is easier to get value.

Type 1: Siakam, Grant, Young but younger

Type 2: PJ Washington, Collins, Harris, Gordon

Type 3: Williamson, Randle, Simmons, Green but more green.

Type 4: AD, Jackson

Type 5: Bucks guy, KD, Issac, Ingram (eventually)... McDaniels maybe...

Type 6: Just play a SF.

[KGdaBom]

Rather than a skill set, I've long thought that we need someone that brings toughness and who can set the tone defensively for the rest of the team. We need our enforcer. It seems most championship teams have a guy like that -- a Rodman, Oakley, Wallace, Draymond, Artest, etc. I think Taj fit the bill a little bit, but he was long in the tooth and much more of a 5 than a 4 while he was here and for that reason wasn't the best fit next to Towns.

Jae Crowder is that guy for Phx this year. The Clippers have one of the Morris twins. The Bucks have PJ Tucker. The Hawks don't really have a 'guy' but Capela, Collins, and Hill (having replaced Hunter) are sharing the load.

I loved Pekovic. Guys like Embiid wouldn't dare try punking us with Pek around. Too bad his body couldn't hold up. He went back home and it seems he is currently a mobster.

[MN7725]

Have the Wolves ever had a stretch (20+ games) with KAT at C where they were even average defensively?

There was a stretch the previous season when Dieng replaced KAT and team was otherwise healthy they were quite good (still lost a lot because offense was terrible)

As bad as it might be for KAT individually to be a "PF" and be more out on the perimeter, there is a lot of evidence from so many years and different lineups (even with Butler/Taj) that a team will never approach being even decent defensively with KAT as the paint protector, anchor

I've always been a KAT at "C" with two combo forward types at SF/PF as being the ideal, but idk anymore

[Calinks]

I think someone who can handle the bigger guys (and thus make KAT more of a PF) would be nice. Reall I want toughness, rim protection, and a player who can help elevate KAT's defense. Seems like the ROCCO/McDaniels type at PF isn't enough, I think they need a tough physical presence over the finesse guy. KAT is good enough to take on a more finesse role if needed and I think he could guard most 4's though some would give him problems.

So Turner, Collins, Simmons. Though I could see things working well with all three. If we got Simmons at PF I think we just have to accept the fact that the 2-3 big centers in the league are going to have their way with us but hopefully we can beat them on the other end. That isn't horrible because even a guy like Turner can't stop them all the time.

[Nick K]

Rather than a skill set, I've long thought that we need someone that brings toughness and who can set the tone defensively for the rest of the team. We need our enforcer. It seems most championship teams have a guy like that -- a Rodman, Oakley, Wallace, Draymond, Artest, etc. I think Taj fit the bill a little bit, but he was long in the tooth and much more of a 5 than a 4 while he was here and for that reason wasn't the best fit next to Towns.

Jae Crowder is that guy for Phx this year. The Clippers have one of the Morris twins. The Bucks have PJ Tucker. The Hawks don't really have a 'guy' but Capela, Collins, and Hill (having replaced Hunter) are sharing the load.

I loved Pekovic. Guys like Embiid wouldn't dare try punking us with Pek around. Too bad his body couldn't hold up. He went back home and it seems he is currently a mobster.

I loved him too as he would say...I keel you! He's out on the lake fishing every day and now weighs 450 lbs.

[Nick K]

The new Dane Moore pod on Bolmaro has an interesting feature at the end - talking about what type of archetype we need next to KAT.

It looks like the initial archetype, “SF that can shoot the three,” didn’t fit, even with good players like Covington. He listed three archetypes in the max level category. I was curious how a poll would work. Assume we had our choice of trading for any of these players at a fair price. I’m willing to modify any of these descriptions.

Myles Turner: Great rim protector. Can shoot the three. Forces Towns to play more PF

John Collins: Good pick and roll. Lob Threat. Lesser defense.

Ben Simmons: Elite perimeter defender. Can guard 1-5. Good passer. Horrible shooter.

Other: I would rather have someone else over 1-3 of these guys.

I don't think the primary concern anymore is what type of player fits best next to KAT. He's not a great rim defender and his size/huge feet will be a detriment to defending on the perimeter. The far more interesting question is what type of player fits best with Edwards? You mentioned that the Covington archtype didn't fit with KAT, but I think that's exactly the type of player we need to be surrounding Edwards with.

Our top priorities for roster construction should be 1) creating space for Edwards to attack the rim, and 2) being able to switch on picks and screens. In order for Edwards to reach his potential, he needs to learn how to read defenses and drive/kick to open shooters.

Of the three options you mentioned, the only one that plays above average defense and can hit 3s is Myles Turner. The problem then is you're playing KAT at the 4 which takes away your switchability.

I like McDaniels at the 3 and he can cover the 4. That's why a Mobley or Barnes could be such a great fit.

I wonder what the cost might be to get Barnes? The Simmons price tag has my head spinning. Plus how do you pay him with Dlo and Kat?

[Nick K]

Rather than a skill set, I've long thought that we need someone that brings toughness and who can set the tone defensively for the rest of the team. We need our enforcer. It seems most championship teams have a guy like that -- a Rodman, Oakley, Wallace, Draymond, Artest, etc. I think Taj fit the bill a little bit, but he was long in the tooth and much more of a 5 than a 4 while he was here and for that reason wasn't the best fit next to Towns.

Jae Crowder is that guy for Phx this year. The Clippers have one of the Morris twins. The Bucks have PJ Tucker. The Hawks don't really have a 'guy' but Capela, Collins, and Hill (having replaced Hunter) are sharing the load.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I like Barnes so much. I like Collins a little for us but he isn't moving. He isn't the toughest either.

[karch34]

Pek was a bad a**. Living in AZ have had some players and coaches in various sports in neighborhood. I don’t pry but sometimes a beer or two happens. One of the guys that was a Euro League star told me stories about Pek in those days and he was legit.

I voted for first option but preference is to find guy that could be that type we aren’t looking at on the cheap. Watching Bucks thinking why didn’t we have interest in Portis when available. There’s others too, but just thinking we finally realized we need another legit big to compete

[old school 34]

Turner is the least favorite of the 3 for me....yes, I want to be bigger...but still need to have some switchability imo. Not sure Collins will really be available after his playoffs but I like the archetype. Not sure I'm buying that Siakom is really on the market as well...but if so he'd be above Turner for me as well as maybe even R. Holmes?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

[Klomp]

Turner is the least favorite of the 3 for me....yes, I want to be bigger...but still need to have some switchability imo. Not sure Collins will really be available after his playoffs but I like the archetype. Not sure I'm buying that Siakom is really on the market as well...but if so he'd be above Turner for me as well as maybe even R. Holmes?

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM mobile app

I agree about switchability being important. That's why Simmons would probably still be at the top for me.

[TheProdigy]

The new Dane Moore pod on Bolmaro has an interesting feature at the end - talking about what type of archetype we need next to KAT.

It looks like the initial archetype, “SF that can shoot the three,” didn’t fit, even with good players like Covington. He listed three archetypes in the max level category. I was curious how a poll would work. Assume we had our choice of trading for any of these players at a fair price. I’m willing to modify any of these descriptions.

Myles Turner: Great rim protector. Can shoot the three. Forces Towns to play more PF

John Collins: Good pick and roll. Lob Threat. Lesser defense.

Ben Simmons: Elite perimeter defender. Can guard 1-5. Good passer. Horrible shooter.

Other: I would rather have someone else over 1-3 of these guys.

I don't think the primary concern anymore is what type of player fits best next to KAT. He's not a great rim defender and his size/huge feet will be a detriment to defending on the perimeter. The far more interesting question is what type of player fits best with Edwards? You mentioned that the Covington archtype didn't fit with KAT, but I think that's exactly the type of player we need to be surrounding Edwards with.

Our top priorities for roster construction should be 1) creating space for Edwards to attack the rim, and 2) being able to switch on picks and screens. In order for Edwards to reach his potential, he needs to learn how to read defenses and drive/kick to open shooters.

Of the three options you mentioned, the only one that plays above average defense and can hit 3s is Myles Turner. The problem then is you're playing KAT at the 4 which takes away your switchability.

I like McDaniels at the 3 and he can cover the 4. That's why a Mobley or Barnes could be such a great fit.

I wonder what the cost might be to get Barnes? The Simmons price tag has my head spinning. Plus how do you pay him with Dlo and Kat?

McDaniels is a great fit for our rotation. SFs/PFs that can hit 3s on low usage and make an impact on defense are not easy to find. Just look at the impact PJ Tucker is having on the Bucks, and Jae Crowder is having on the Suns.

We have some very unique talents on this team right now and I think our focus should be on surrounding our core with the right players. Edwards is a SPECIAL athlete, and he should be a great fit next to KAT on offense. If we can surround Edwards with good shooters, there is no reason why he can't attack the rim relentlessly, and kick to open shooters when the lane collapses.

[shangrila]

When I think of archetypes I view them more generally than the specific examples you've given. Especially a guy like Simmons who's so unique stylistically you might only find 1-2 other guys in the league like him.

So to me the choice is between these archetypes;

1. A 5. Someone who pushes KAT to the 4, ideally with the bulk to handle the beefier guys KAT struggles with. I'm sure some would say Turner fits this, I'm thinking more a Dieng or Valancunis.

2. A 4/5. Someone who can play alongside KAT or move down when KAT sits. Again, ideally someone that can handle the heavier guys in the league. I'd argue Turner fits here but for the sake of argument I'd say a younger Paul Millsap.

3. A 3/4. More mobile, more switchable, but not someone that can handle 5s. Simmons, obviously, or Covington would be examples.

I'd prefer to go with option 2 as it gives us some switchability while ideally adding the toughness we desperately need.

[TheZachAttack]

When I think of archetypes I view them more generally than the specific examples you've given. Especially a guy like Simmons who's so unique stylistically you might only find 1-2 other guys in the league like him.

So to me the choice is between these archetypes;

1. A 5. Someone who pushes KAT to the 4, ideally with the bulk to handle the beefier guys KAT struggles with. I'm sure some would say Turner fits this, I'm thinking more a Dieng or Valancunis.

2. A 4/5. Someone who can play alongside KAT or move down when KAT sits. Again, ideally someone that can handle the heavier guys in the league. I'd argue Turner fits here but for the sake of argument I'd say a younger Paul Millsap.

3. A 3/4. More mobile, more switchable, but not someone that can handle 5s. Simmons, obviously, or Covington would be examples.

I'd prefer to go with option 2 as it gives us some switchability while ideally adding the toughness we desperately need.

I'm going to pivot the conversation and explore a different idea for roster construction:

I think I'd rather spend assets/cap whatever it might be on cobbling together role players for big spots. I think KAT clearly should be playing more 4 than he does now. Naz Reid fits a certain type of big archetype. I'd also like to see the Wolves get a rim running / rim protecting lob threat 15-20 min per game big similar to a Cauley-Stein type player. I think McDaniels main position is the "3", but he can play some "4" as well in certain matchups.

For 3, I think McDaniels fits that Archetype. For 1, I think you can get a 15-20 minute per game player. I'd ideally want to find another player that's a little bit more of a typical "4". I'm not sure we need to spend major assets to get that player given that we do have KAT on the roster.

If we are making a trade and moving Rubio/Beasley/futures I'd like to try to see us turn that into a more typical 3+D wing who can guard bigger wings. I see the Hawks have multiple offensive threats as wings in guys like Bogdanivic and Huerter. But they also have Hunter, Reddish, Hill, etc, etc who are all big wings who can to some degree switch anything on the perimeter and also are low usage floor spacers. McDaneils is one of these guys, I think we need more of those guys.

I just think you can solve a lot of what you are looking for from the Wolves bigs around KAT with role-players rather than putting major assets to what you are really wanting in terms of production for those spots. You're looking for spacing and energy and switchability and looking for slightly different skillsets depending on the matchup.

[SO_MONEY]

In a perfect world you would carry at least 3 types of PF.

1. A modern oversized, tall and long SF.

2. A long tall athlete who can move down to the 5 in a pinch.

3. A conventional stretch 4 a guy with size that prevents playing the 3, but has some guard skills and is a bit more rugged than type 1.

Type 3 is really the goal to fit the largest range of matchups.

[Norseman79]

In a perfect world you would carry at least 3 types of PF.

1. A modern oversized, tall and long SF.

2. A long tall athlete who can move down to the 5 in a pinch.

3. A conventional stretch 4 a guy with size that prevents playing the 3, but has some guard skills and is a bit more rugged than type 1.

Type 3 is really the goal to fit the largest range of matchups.

I like this ..

1. We potentially have in McDaniels.
2. We do not have
3. I think this was the vision/hope for Juancho...

[wolfen]

Rather than a skill set, I've long thought that we need someone that brings toughness and who can set the tone defensively for the rest of the team. We need our enforcer. It seems most championship teams have a guy like that -- a Rodman, Oakley, Wallace, Draymond, Artest, etc. I think Taj fit the bill a little bit, but he was long in the tooth and much more of a 5 than a 4 while he was here and for that reason wasn't the best fit next to Towns.

Jae Crowder is that guy for Phx this year. The Clippers have one of the Morris twins. The Bucks have PJ Tucker. The Hawks don't really have a 'guy' but Capela, Collins, and Hill (having replaced Hunter) are sharing the load.

The freak's brother (Thianasis), maybe Justice Winslow, could be "dog-types" to give us some bite on defense. A vertical threat who can score, shoot, and rebound at the 4 like Collins combined with a 3 like either of those I mentioned would be sweet. Collins isn't happening though, kind of a moot point, but that type of 4 and 3 combo would work for me.