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Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition)

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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#941 » by karch34 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:08 pm

winforlose wrote:
Klomp wrote:
karch34 wrote:I think at this point it’s obvious we aren’t going to make any move to fix the roster until the Simmons mess ends.

It's not about Simmons. Moves just rarely happen at this point in the season.


True. But, such obvious roster holes are also uncommon at this point in the season. Usually the GM or POBO addresses them in the offseason rather than getting fired for an affair with a married employee.


Lol. I think that’s more the point I was trying to make. It’s not the early on in season trade as much as I feel we didn’t make a move that would’ve improved our need because we have had an eye on Simmons and any lesser trade might have affected that.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#942 » by shrink » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:20 pm

Let me ask this: Does a Ben Simmons deal feel less important this week than last week?

I still believe that desperation for talent drives all these trade wishes for Star players over the years, rather than determining whether a trade makes sense.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#943 » by winforlose » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:26 pm

karch34 wrote:
winforlose wrote:
Klomp wrote:It's not about Simmons. Moves just rarely happen at this point in the season.


True. But, such obvious roster holes are also uncommon at this point in the season. Usually the GM or POBO addresses them in the offseason rather than getting fired for an affair with a married employee.


Lol. I think that’s more the point I was trying to make. It’s not the early on in season trade as much as I feel we didn’t make a move that would’ve improved our need because we have had an eye on Simmons and any lesser trade might have affected that.


No I got your point, and your not exactly wrong. But, if Rosas keeps his fly zipped he might have made some move in the meantime (maybe JO, or JMAC, for a backup C.)
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#944 » by Klomp » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:17 am

shrink wrote:Let me ask this: Does a Ben Simmons deal feel less important this week than last week?

I still believe that desperation for talent drives all these trade wishes for Star players over the years, rather than determining whether a trade makes sense.

It depends on what someone would be pleased with as a season outcome and what it would take to get there.

This week showed us that we're play-in caliber. Great. We showed we're better than what are probably four 30-win teams. Are we to be excited about that? Are we to be content with that? Or do we still challenge ourselves as a franchise to do what it takes to possibly take another step forward? I know that you personally are not sold on Simmons being that player, but at the same time you obviously recognize that an addition is necessary.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#945 » by shrink » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:18 am

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Let me ask this: Does a Ben Simmons deal feel less important this week than last week?

I still believe that desperation for talent drives all these trade wishes for Star players over the years, rather than determining whether a trade makes sense.

It depends on what someone would be pleased with as a season outcome and what it would take to get there.

This week showed us that we're play-in caliber. Great. We showed we're better than what are probably four 30-win teams. Are we to be excited about that? Are we to be content with that? Or do we still challenge ourselves as a franchise to do what it takes to possibly take another step forward? I know that you personally are not sold on Simmons being that player, but at the same time you obviously recognize that an addition is necessary.

You’re right, that we need more talent on the roster to make any noise in this playoffs, and you’re right that I have never thought Ben Simmons was the answer, long before he declared himself mentally unfit to play. And I’ll even say that rational people can make an argument why Simmons would work here, even if I disagree with it.

But it goes past Simmons. There are groups of posters than endorse any trade, for any big name player, whether he fits or not. I am trying to understand why RealGM posters, who I look at as smarter about team building than most, would do this.

And I might mention that I’m a little higher on internal growth here. Suppose Edwards becomes DWade. If you based a team on DWade and Towns, and traded the rest for vets, how good a playoff team is that for the next five years?
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#946 » by fattymcgee » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:54 am

This was brought up again in another thread but I still prefer Miles Turner. I think he's a better fit and would take less assets to acquire.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#947 » by karch34 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:03 am

winforlose wrote:
karch34 wrote:
winforlose wrote:
True. But, such obvious roster holes are also uncommon at this point in the season. Usually the GM or POBO addresses them in the offseason rather than getting fired for an affair with a married employee.


Lol. I think that’s more the point I was trying to make. It’s not the early on in season trade as much as I feel we didn’t make a move that would’ve improved our need because we have had an eye on Simmons and any lesser trade might have affected that.


No I got your point, and your not exactly wrong. But, if Rosas keeps his fly zipped he might have made some move in the meantime (maybe JO, or JMAC, for a backup C.)


I was responding to Klomp’s time of the season point. You stated overall issue better and also brought up a point we hadn’t discussed.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#948 » by KGdaBom » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:03 pm

Simmons skill set would be an incredibly good fit for our team. Opponents can't do both pack the paint and tightly guard our shooters on the outside. With Simmons creating skills we are going to get Quality shots all game long and that's without mentioning the improvement to our defense and particularly rebounding. Did I mention fast breaks?
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#949 » by Slim Tubby » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:07 pm

What’s the best offer you’d support for Simmons from a Wolves’ perspective?


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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#950 » by shrink » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:18 am

One of the team’s biggest flaws is that when the opposing big isn’t a threat from 3, teams guard Towns heavy and leave a big underneath to double team him, or reduce space for KAT drives. Simmons obviously can’t shoot the three. People say he is still a big threat with the ball in his hands, and I would ask .. what does DLo do then? And secondly, are we 100% convinced he will return to being an offensive threat? Remember, this is the guy who almost never shot in the fourth quarter in the playoffs, and flat out refused to dunk in the final game, because he was so scared of shooting FT’s in a pressure situation. Right now, he’s saying that he’s not mentally healthy enough to even play basketball. I do not think anyone can just assume he is going to return to his previous self when he got worse and worse all last year, and he’s never been a shooter.

Also, what happens if we trade a ton of assets to get Simmons, he starts poorly, and then decides he just isn’t going to play for us, either?
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#951 » by shangrila » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:55 am

shrink wrote:One of the team’s biggest flaws is that when the opposing big isn’t a threat from 3, teams guard Towns heavy and leave a big underneath to double team him, or reduce space for KAT drives.

Hasn't hurt the Vando/KAT pairing. Hell, the DLo-Bev-Ant-Vando-KAT lineup is apparently the best in the entire league by a country mile.
Simmons obviously can’t shoot the three. People say he is still a big threat with the ball in his hands, and I would ask .. what does DLo do then?

Shoot the ball?

I'm not sure what you're aiming for here.
And secondly, are we 100% convinced he will return to being an offensive threat? Remember, this is the guy who almost never shot in the fourth quarter in the playoffs, and flat out refused to dunk in the final game, because he was so scared of shooting FT’s in a pressure situation. Right now, he’s saying that he’s not mentally healthy enough to even play basketball. I do not think anyone can just assume he is going to return to his previous self when he got worse and worse all last year, and he’s never been a shooter.

It's not his offence that's important. It's the All NBA defence, the elite passing and rebounding, and his overall versatility.

Also, what happens if we trade a ton of assets to get Simmons, he starts poorly, and then decides he just isn’t going to play for us, either?

This is disingenuous and you know this is disingenuous.

You're better than this.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#952 » by shrink » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:45 pm

shangrila wrote:
shrink wrote:One of the team’s biggest flaws is that when the opposing big isn’t a threat from 3, teams guard Towns heavy and leave a big underneath to double team him, or reduce space for KAT drives.

Hasn't hurt the Vando/KAT pairing. Hell, the DLo-Bev-Ant-Vando-KAT lineup is apparently the best in the entire league by a country mile.
Simmons obviously can’t shoot the three. People say he is still a big threat with the ball in his hands, and I would ask .. what does DLo do then?

Shoot the ball?

I'm not sure what you're aiming for here.
And secondly, are we 100% convinced he will return to being an offensive threat? Remember, this is the guy who almost never shot in the fourth quarter in the playoffs, and flat out refused to dunk in the final game, because he was so scared of shooting FT’s in a pressure situation. Right now, he’s saying that he’s not mentally healthy enough to even play basketball. I do not think anyone can just assume he is going to return to his previous self when he got worse and worse all last year, and he’s never been a shooter.

It's not his offence that's important. It's the All NBA defence, the elite passing and rebounding, and his overall versatility.

Also, what happens if we trade a ton of assets to get Simmons, he starts poorly, and then decides he just isn’t going to play for us, either?

This is disingenuous and you know this is disingenuous.

You're better than this.

This feels like you are ignoring past events.

Yes, it’s great MIN has won its last four games, but we’ve seen LAC three times and even ORL showed the team’s weakness - a non-shooter that allows Towns to be double covered.

Yes, DLO can shoot spot ups, but we’ve seen that he was unhappy and destructive when he doesn’t have the ball in his hands. Plus, the guy is paid $30 mil! You don’t pay $30 mil to a guy who is just a shooter. Successful teams maximize their talent/payroll.

And no, I don’t think the question of “what if Simmons refuses to play?” is disingenuous at all. We’ve also seen that he is a player that refuses to play, and has been spectacularly unashamed to refuse to live up to his contract. Not because he’s injured - because playing makes him feel nervous. We have seen who he is, and to claim it’s not a risk he does this exact same behavior again is just more of ignoring past (current) events.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#953 » by winforlose » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:08 pm

shrink wrote:
shangrila wrote:
shrink wrote:One of the team’s biggest flaws is that when the opposing big isn’t a threat from 3, teams guard Towns heavy and leave a big underneath to double team him, or reduce space for KAT drives.

Hasn't hurt the Vando/KAT pairing. Hell, the DLo-Bev-Ant-Vando-KAT lineup is apparently the best in the entire league by a country mile.
Simmons obviously can’t shoot the three. People say he is still a big threat with the ball in his hands, and I would ask .. what does DLo do then?

Shoot the ball?

I'm not sure what you're aiming for here.
And secondly, are we 100% convinced he will return to being an offensive threat? Remember, this is the guy who almost never shot in the fourth quarter in the playoffs, and flat out refused to dunk in the final game, because he was so scared of shooting FT’s in a pressure situation. Right now, he’s saying that he’s not mentally healthy enough to even play basketball. I do not think anyone can just assume he is going to return to his previous self when he got worse and worse all last year, and he’s never been a shooter.

It's not his offence that's important. It's the All NBA defence, the elite passing and rebounding, and his overall versatility.

Also, what happens if we trade a ton of assets to get Simmons, he starts poorly, and then decides he just isn’t going to play for us, either?

This is disingenuous and you know this is disingenuous.

You're better than this.

This feels like you are ignoring past events.

Yes, it’s great MIN has won its last four games, but we’ve seen LAC three times and even ORL showed the team’s weakness - a non-shooter that allows Towns to be double covered.

Yes, DLO can shoot spot ups, but we’ve seen that he was unhappy and destructive when he doesn’t have the ball in his hands. Plus, the guy is paid $30 mil! You don’t pay $30 mil to a guy who is just a shooter. Successful teams maximize their talent/payroll.

And no, I don’t think the question of “what if Simmons refuses to play?” is disingenuous at all. We’ve also seen that he is a player that refuses to play, and has been spectacularly unashamed to refuse to live up to his contract. Not because he’s injured - because playing makes him feel nervous. We have seen who he is, and to claim it’s not a risk he does this exact same behavior again is just more of ignoring past (current) events.


This, plus we have lived this nonsense with General Soreness only 4 years ago. Guy talks about how much he loves the coach and wants to build something here. Things go wrong and he doesn’t love our team for whatever reason and demands a trade. We gave away Lavine and Markkanen for Butler and look where that got us. What happens when Ant and Simmons don’t get along (Ant doesn’t exactly like to pass when he is feeling it,) and Simmons feels disrespected. Or what happens if Towns and Simmons don’t get along. Or if the fans turn on Simmons, or if Finch doesn’t get along with Simmons, or if Simmons melts down again in the playoffs and everyone turn on Simmons.

We finally have depth, we built the team we want. In case everyone hasn’t noticed the issue for this team is not defense. We are phenomenal at defense right now. We need someone who consistently opens the play book on offense and who rebounds like a Motherfu*****. Simmons might get you some boards but he closes more of the playbook than he opens, his contract makes you walk away from a lot of promising talent, getting him damages our depth and our ability to generate new depth via draft picks, and there is a legit risk he will not want to be here long term. Why is this even still a question?

P.S Simmons not practicing and not playing does not bode well for his production this season.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#954 » by Chello1 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:36 pm

Miles Turner>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ben Simmons.
Not even close. Turner is the better fit by a country mile. There are others as well. We do not want Ben Simmons anywhere near this team at this time. I was for a trade earlier but his attitude and lack of work ethic would spell doom next to Ant.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#955 » by Klomp » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:03 pm

shrink wrote:And no, I don’t think the question of “what if Simmons refuses to play?” is disingenuous at all. We’ve also seen that he is a player that refuses to play, and has been spectacularly unashamed to refuse to live up to his contract. Not because he’s injured - because playing makes him feel nervous. We have seen who he is, and to claim it’s not a risk he does this exact same behavior again is just more of ignoring past (current) events.

Do you think Bulls fans were asking that question in the 90s when Jordan announced he was coming back?

And the "playing makes him feel nervous" comment is a ginormous insult to the mental health of any NBA player. WHAT THE HELL??!! We're fans of a team where our star player literally froze in a back hallway of an arena last year because he was scared and you're trying to make a mockery of Simmons like that?! NOT COOL.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#956 » by winforlose » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:18 pm

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:And no, I don’t think the question of “what if Simmons refuses to play?” is disingenuous at all. We’ve also seen that he is a player that refuses to play, and has been spectacularly unashamed to refuse to live up to his contract. Not because he’s injured - because playing makes him feel nervous. We have seen who he is, and to claim it’s not a risk he does this exact same behavior again is just more of ignoring past (current) events.

Do you think Bulls fans were asking that question in the 90s when Jordan announced he was coming back?

And the "playing makes him feel nervous" comment is a ginormous insult to the mental health of any NBA player. WHAT THE HELL??!! We're fans of a team where our star player literally froze in a back hallway of an arena last year because he was scared and you're trying to make a mockery of Simmons like that?! NOT COOL.


To be fair, Simmons refused to play, they fined him, he came back and used mental health as a reason not to play the same way Butler used General Soreness. Simmons won’t let the team do the things they need to do to verify the situation. Maybe that’s about trust, maybe not, but the fact is Simmons wasn’t getting mental health help until it was financially beneficial to do so.

Moreover, Simmons refusal to come back speaks to a mentality that is either bad or toxic. Should everyone have turned on him last year, no they should not. But, he did melt down. He did play a huge part in them not advancing. Everyone gives crap to KAT for being soft, well what the hell is Simmons? The guy won’t come back because people blamed him for things he did, and were devastated by his chocking yet again. Simmons demanded out and then made it clear he would do whatever it takes to get out. He put himself above the team and all his teammates. This is not the guy we need here.

One last thought to leave you with. If it was truly about mental health then why not make it about mental health from the beginning. Why not start therapy from the beginning. Why not make it clear it’s not that he will not come back, but that he cannot come back. He had months during the offseason to improve his mental health to get NBA ready, instead he waits until he is forced to come back and says whoops sorry not quite mentally ready. Shrink is right.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#957 » by shrink » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:46 pm

Speaking of psychology, I also wanted to mention that we tend to think of good behavior in ourselves or the people we like as character, and repeatable, and bad behavior as circumstantial.

For example, if a guy who has been in 20 bar fights is called “aggressive,” he may say, “No I’m not - they started it!”

The bottom line here is to rid ourselves of that bias, we have to accept what we choose to do. Anyone who thinks what Simmons does in PHI is purely situational, and couldn’t happen here, is unintentionally deluding themselves.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#958 » by Klomp » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:04 pm

shrink wrote:The bottom line here is to rid ourselves of that bias, we have to accept what we choose to do. Anyone who thinks what Simmons does in PHI is purely situational, and couldn’t happen here, is unintentionally deluding themselves.

Of course it could happen here. But that doesn't mean it would happen here. That's where it seems the line is drawn.

Any player on any day for any reason could choose not to play. So should the team never draft or sign or trade for another player ever again? No, you support the player through the situation he's dealing with. Off-court issues shouldn't affect the on-court value of a player to a franchise.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#959 » by mplsfonz23 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:32 pm

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:The bottom line here is to rid ourselves of that bias, we have to accept what we choose to do. Anyone who thinks what Simmons does in PHI is purely situational, and couldn’t happen here, is unintentionally deluding themselves.

Of course it could happen here. But that doesn't mean it would happen here. That's where it seems the line is drawn.

Any player on any day for any reason could choose not to play. So should the team never draft or sign or trade for another player ever again? No, you support the player through the situation he's dealing with. Off-court issues shouldn't affect the on-court value of a player to a franchise.


I would if he were here. But why bring him in hope that he gets back to, well, just D. We don't need another non shooter here, as you can see everybody has to pull the trigger on the three, he will hesitate and teams will collapse the paint. If he drives they will just foul him and send his confidence to the line. That will break him. If KAT is supposedly "soft," how will Simmons improve our image.
At this point, the team is playing well, and should not gut the team for another chemistry experiment.
I will say again...F Philly and that failed process. How bad would we be laughed at if we bailed them out with players and picks? Nobody seems to want Simmons, so lets not be smarter than everyone else....again.
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Re: Ben Simmons Thread #2 (“Don’t make me contact Howard” Edition) 

Post#960 » by shangrila » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:04 pm

shrink wrote:
shangrila wrote:
shrink wrote:One of the team’s biggest flaws is that when the opposing big isn’t a threat from 3, teams guard Towns heavy and leave a big underneath to double team him, or reduce space for KAT drives.

Hasn't hurt the Vando/KAT pairing. Hell, the DLo-Bev-Ant-Vando-KAT lineup is apparently the best in the entire league by a country mile.
Simmons obviously can’t shoot the three. People say he is still a big threat with the ball in his hands, and I would ask .. what does DLo do then?

Shoot the ball?

I'm not sure what you're aiming for here.
And secondly, are we 100% convinced he will return to being an offensive threat? Remember, this is the guy who almost never shot in the fourth quarter in the playoffs, and flat out refused to dunk in the final game, because he was so scared of shooting FT’s in a pressure situation. Right now, he’s saying that he’s not mentally healthy enough to even play basketball. I do not think anyone can just assume he is going to return to his previous self when he got worse and worse all last year, and he’s never been a shooter.

It's not his offence that's important. It's the All NBA defence, the elite passing and rebounding, and his overall versatility.

Also, what happens if we trade a ton of assets to get Simmons, he starts poorly, and then decides he just isn’t going to play for us, either?

This is disingenuous and you know this is disingenuous.

You're better than this.

This feels like you are ignoring past events.

Yes, it’s great MIN has won its last four games, but we’ve seen LAC three times and even ORL showed the team’s weakness - a non-shooter that allows Towns to be double covered.

So you have your 4 game sample size and I have mine. I guess time will tell which is correct long term.

I would argue it's far easier to camp in the lane when you have a non-shooter acting like a shooter (early season McDaniels/Prince) than a non-shooter who actually acts like one (i.e. not camping at the 3pt line, making cuts and the like).

Yes, DLO can shoot spot ups, but we’ve seen that he was unhappy and destructive when he doesn’t have the ball in his hands. Plus, the guy is paid $30 mil! You don’t pay $30 mil to a guy who is just a shooter. Successful teams maximize their talent/payroll.

I'll need a citation on that one. When have we ever seen him be unhappy and destructive without the ball in his hands? Hell, the end of last season seemed like some of his best/happiest and he was running a ton of off ball stuff then.

The idea also isn't to just sit him in a corner, obviously. The point is that he's not useless without the ball, which is what you seemed to be implying. Nor does anyone on this team, even with Simmons, need to have the ball 100% of the time to be effective. We can maximise talent through more ways than straight usage.

And no, I don’t think the question of “what if Simmons refuses to play?” is disingenuous at all. We’ve also seen that he is a player that refuses to play, and has been spectacularly unashamed to refuse to live up to his contract. Not because he’s injured - because playing makes him feel nervous. We have seen who he is, and to claim it’s not a risk he does this exact same behavior again is just more of ignoring past (current) events.

You've accused me twice now of ignoring past events which, given this comment, seems like you're projecting.

No matter if a person has believed Simmons' mental health claims or not, everyone has at least been able to agree that the issue is with Philly. With being openly belittled by his own coach and seemingly by his star running mate being the proverbial straw. But prior to this? He spent 5 years playing without complaint. He even took the criticisms on the chin.

Furthermore, you ignore the very real drama he's been going through off the court that's only recently been "settled" in court, but will probably require longer to truly, if ever, overcome it. So there's more context (or past events, if you will) at play here than just deciding "I don't want to play anymore", hence why that suggestion is disingenuous.

We all know you don't like Simmons and don't want the team to trade for him, and that's fine. I've never had a problem with people arguing against his offensive struggles because it's a legitimate point that we simply disagree on. But stick to that, don't try to use the mental health stuff (especially without context) to try and "win" this debate. That kind of crap debases us all.

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